[Shades]

I’m back in the office; hybrid working (60:40 home/office).  I usually cycle (17 miles each way) or do a drive/cycle combo (close enough to the office to avoid the traffic and cycle in normal clothes without getting sweaty) if the weather is a bit inclement (or winter).  Bike park at work (many 1000s work at my site) is pretty empty (OK, people are working flexibly) but the traffic queues are almost back to pre-pandemic levels in places.  Junior staff in the office, on the lower salaries, wailing about the petrol price increases, which must be around 20%, yet they keep on paying.  Some people haven’t got a choice, granted, but running the sums, cost of driving must be comparable to the bus or train; or dig a bike out and it cost sweet FA!

I wish Chris Boardman the best luck in the world, but when people are doggedly happy to empty their bank accounts to keep driving you have to wonder.

Topic

[wtjs]

Is it any wonder that the

Is it any wonder that the only frequent users appear to be those who get a free bus pass

Guilty!- but my conscience is clear as I cycle everywhere in the Leyland, Preston, Lancaster, Preston region.

[andystow]

Wow! Here in the US, they’re

Wow! Here in the US, they’re definitely not big on public transport, but my local bus system costs $1 (75p) per ride or $3 (£2.25) for unlimited rides in a day, and is half price for students, disabled, veterans, and seniors over 65.

Also, $40 (£30) for an unlimited 30-day pass.

The downside is it’s not very convenient, and I can generally get anywhere faster by bicycle.

 

[Grahamd]

Simon E wrote:

Tom_77 wrote:

I get the train to work (currently going in at most once a week), with the recent fare increases it’s £17 for what would be 35 miles each way in the car. Fuel (diesel @ £1.65/l) is probably about £9.50, maybe another couple of quid for wear and tear, call it £12*.

If you’re going to ignore the other costs then it’s no surprise the car will be cheaper.

But servicing, repairs etc are not negligible costs. A more realistic amount (minus depreciation, insurance, VED etc) while fuel is at £1.65/L would be a minimum of 20p/mile. That’s £14 per day. It probably should probably be higher, perhaps around 24p/mile, but will vary with factors such as how much your chosen workshop charges, price of parts and so on (my tyres cost £48 but several people I know spend £150+ per wheel)

When I last took a local bus (out of necessity) it cost £4.60 for a 6 mile trip. Such pricing will never encourage people to get rid of cars. Is it any wonder that the only frequent users appear to be those who get a free bus pass. 

[zeeridesbikes]

Can’t disagree with that. 

Can’t disagree with that. 

[Simon E]

Tom_77 wrote:

Tom_77 wrote:

I get the train to work (currently going in at most once a week), with the recent fare increases it’s £17 for what would be 35 miles each way in the car. Fuel (diesel @ £1.65/l) is probably about £9.50, maybe another couple of quid for wear and tear, call it £12*.

If you’re going to ignore the other costs then it’s no surprise the car will be cheaper.

But servicing, repairs etc are not negligible costs. A more realistic amount (minus depreciation, insurance, VED etc) while fuel is at £1.65/L would be a minimum of 20p/mile. That’s £14 per day. It probably should probably be higher, perhaps around 24p/mile, but will vary with factors such as how much your chosen workshop charges, price of parts and so on (my tyres cost £48 but several people I know spend £150+ per wheel).

Train fares have risen significantly over the years while the cost of driving has dropped or stayed flat. That’s a political choice and yet another reason why everyone who voted Conservative since 2010 is part of the problem (well, every government since 1979 IMO, since privatisation & stripping publicly owned assets and placing them into private ownership for profit has been going on since the 1980s).

And of course we’ve not got to the external costs that driving incurs. Negative externalities of all transport now estimated to cost EU nations €1,000 billion annually, or 7% of GDP.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/01/24/motorists-should-pay-full-costs-of-road-pollution-deaths-and-damage-says-eu-transport-commissioner/

[hawkinspeter]

mdavidford wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

I’d love a bit of techno-anarchism – like a free-market of societal systems. Open source government if you will.

Whereas what we’ve got is an open sauce government.

Mmmmm! Jellied Eels!

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/18/jellied-eel-canapes-and-venison-no-10-hosts-biggest-names-in-business-boris-johnson-bill-gates

 

[mdavidford]

hawkinspeter wrote:

I’d love a bit of techno-anarchism – like a free-market of societal systems. Open source government if you will.

Whereas what we’ve got is an open sauce government.

[hawkinspeter]

chrisonatrike wrote:

Taxes are part of how we bond everyone into a state (humans are inherent cooperators).  Or if you don’t subscribe to that how we make it worth everyone’s while / bribe them into complicity with a state (saves having to beat them to do so).  Or if you’re really “red in tooth and claw” how we rob them to fund the repressive apparatus.

Least worst system etc.  Anarchism is attractive – why not simply opt out of the taxes that don’t suit us?  Or become entirely self-reliant?  However such systems have tended not to be as stable.  If only because all the other ogliarchies, dictatorships, kleptocratic democracies or global corporations may decide to oppose or fight us.

I’d love a bit of techno-anarchism – like a free-market of societal systems. Open source government if you will.

[hawkinspeter]

zeeridesbikes wrote:

If I thought the government would use more tax to build better infra for cycling, better hospitals or just generally improve people lives I’d be happy to pay more tax, but it’s hard to stomach when you know it’ll just be wasted. 

The problem isn’t the tax paying – it’s the electing of self-serving sociopaths.

[chrisonabike]

hawkinspeter wrote:

mdavidford wrote:

I don’t want to be ‘penalised’ with taxes generally, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be.

Taxes are how we purchase civilisation

Taxes are part of how we bond everyone into a state (humans are inherent cooperators).  Or if you don’t subscribe to that how we make it worth everyone’s while / bribe them into complicity with a state (saves having to beat them to do so).  Or if you’re really “red in tooth and claw” how we rob them to fund the repressive apparatus.

Least worst system etc.  Anarchism is attractive – why not simply opt out of the taxes that don’t suit us?  Or become entirely self-reliant?  However such systems have tended not to be as stable.  If only because all the other ogliarchies, dictatorships, kleptocratic democracies or global corporations may decide to oppose or fight us.

[zeeridesbikes]

If I thought the government

If I thought the government would use more tax to build better infra for cycling, better hospitals or just generally improve people lives I’d be happy to pay more tax, but it’s hard to stomach when you know it’ll just be wasted. 

[hawkinspeter]

mdavidford wrote:

I don’t want to be ‘penalised’ with taxes generally, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be.

Taxes are how we purchase civilisation

[hawkinspeter]

lonpfrb wrote:

lonpfrb wrote:

In London TfL have delegated the bus service to profit making companies because their experience with a union workforce e.g. Underground has been so bad. Thus the outsourcing of tube maintenance and the new Elizabeth Line trains being a service provided by the train owner who employ the drivers, not TfL. So the long and short of it is that TfL will not employ a single person more than they have to, so default to outsourcing for all services that they can. TfL design the service, routes and licence the operators so that a public service is delivered. More employees and their pensions they do not want, can’t afford.

Personally, I don’t see the problem with providing workers with a suitable pension. Unions can be a problem, but profiteers have historically been a far greater problem and we’re now starting to reap the results of people seeking short term profits over long term sustainability.

When I visit London, I usually get the train from Bristol Paddington and then either walk or get the tube – I’ve found the tube to be quite effective. Not as nice as undergrounds in other cities (e.g. Paris, Berlin, Madrid etc), but reasonably short waits for the trains. The biggest problem I saw was the popularity of the underground – trains get seriously packed.

[mdavidford]

I don’t want to be ‘penalised

I don’t want to be ‘penalised’ with taxes generally, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be.

[zeeridesbikes]

I ride to work, shops and

I ride to work, shops and take my daughter to nursery and to local amenities on the my bike. However if I want to take a family trip up to the peaks for a hike, or places where public transport is tricky to reach I dont want to be penalised with additional taxes.

[Author]

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