[Cycloid]

This week we were treated to the spectacle of an EV driver, who I suspect has a fairly low IQ, telling us that cyclists should pay road tax.

As cyclists we are entitled to ask the reverse question – Should drivers pay Road Tax?

With the move away from hydrocarbon to electric powered vehicles fewer drivers are paying VED and the Chancellor is reaping a smaller revenue from the motoring population. The first criticism of motorists towards cyclists is the Free Rider Charge, “They don’t pay for using the roads”. We now have the same situation with motorists, an increasing proportion of drivers are not contributing fairly towards the roads which they use.

The solution could be simple – bring back Road Tax.

All drivers will pay VED on a sliding down to zero, along with Road Tax. Clearly, reading the Road CC blog, there is a lot of nostalgia amongst motorists for this much loved tax, and it would welcomed with open arms as a fair solution to the problem.

The Road Tax component could be earmarked for road improvements, as the recent hike in NICs is earmarked for NHS catchup. Remember not to talk about “Road Maintenance” in this context, our roads are not fit for purpose and getting worse. Maintenance implies keeping the Status Quo.

When a drivers receive a Road Tax bill they will be reminded that it does not give them any special rights to use the roads and that they must respect the vulnerable road user hierarchy.

Job done – Simples!

Topic

[hawkinspeter]

Rich_cb wrote:

Rich_cb wrote:

The workaround is a standard plug. It’s not going to take a criminal mastermind to evade that tax. IMHO the government will want to use EV charging and EV batteries for grid balancing so will want to incentivise the use of proper charging boxes. A tax on using those boxes will achieve the opposite.

Also, it’s taxing the wrong thing. The problems with EVs aren’t that they use electricity so much, but their weight (which is a major factor in their pollution levels), use of materials and contribution to congestion (or non-reduction compared to ICE vehicles).

Mileage or weight would be better choices for taxing. It’d be fun to tax vehicles based on how long they’re stuck in traffic queues, but that’d probably lead to drivers becoming even angrier whenever they’re delayed.

[mdavidford]

I’d start by making all on

I’d start by making all on-road parking charged, and (so that that doesn’t unfairly penalise those who can’t afford it) adding an element in to the council tax calculation for off-road parking provision*.

[*This does rather conflict with my preference for replacing council tax with a local income tax, but let’s cross that bridge if and when we get to it…]

[Sriracha]

They’ve been looking at
They’ve been looking at pattern recognition to disaggregate electrical device consumption for quite a while, a quick Google will throw up loads of papers, eg
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Electric-vehicle-charging-load-filtering-by-power-Shaw-Nayak/27bc0b0722b7a90766eae7f36a8dd4f7651c8401

This one is more aimed at the lay person:
https://blog.sense.com/how-sense-recognizes-the-electric-vehicle-in-your-driveway/

Meanwhile, you are correct in assuming HMG wants to know everything about your EV’s electricity consumption:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/18/section/15/enacted

[Rich_cb]

I’m not an electrician but I
I’m not an electrician but I’m not sure there’ll be an easily discernible difference between charging an EV and charging a home storage battery or even running an oven.

A standard plug will deliver 3KwH so overnight could put about 50% into a standard 70KwH EV battery. Unless you’re doing 100+ miles a day that would be sufficient.

Even if you were doing more than that if you could get a full charge in on the weekend you could still get by on the standard plug during the week.

Would be a faff but worth it to halve your fuel bill.

[Sriracha]

You might be right about the
You might be right about the plug. But nobody I know with an EV uses a plug, because it is so slow. Pretty sure that with smart meters they will be able to recognise the usage signature of an EV on charge so all it needs is some work at the billing end to add the appropriate tax.

[Rich_cb]

The workaround is a standard
The workaround is a standard plug.

It’s not going to take a criminal mastermind to evade that tax.

IMHO the government will want to use EV charging and EV batteries for grid balancing so will want to incentivise the use of proper charging boxes.

A tax on using those boxes will achieve the opposite.

[Sriracha]

I did. But I forgot to tell
I did. But I forgot to tell Auntie!

I caught part of that prog, “Sliced Bread”. They were comparing EV vs ICE on CO2 and running cost per mile.

On the latter point, they came up with EV@7p/mile, ICE@17.5p/mile based on the stunning assumption that the government would not shift the tax burden from the sinking platform to the one floating!

No surprise, I’ve seen estimates of 10p/mile as the figure they would have to tax EVs to keep the revenue the same.

In other words, the much vaunted running cost advantage of EVs is built on shifting sands, and will vanish as soon as the government feels the market is committed to EVs.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/electric-cars-road-tax-miles-b2007604.html

[Hirsute]

Heard a radio 4 programme at
Heard a radio 4 programme at 1730 today using the term road tax.
I am cancelling my subscription.

I thought sriracha suggested mileage as a rough proxy to be recorded at each mot, then you get a bill.

[Sriracha]

Actually, taking 20%VAT on
Actually, taking 20%VAT on goods and services as an almost universal baseline, we get a tax rebate on all electrical consumption now.

With most EVs charged through some kind of domestic wallbox (even if the electrons originate in your own solar panels) or public charger, all with Internet smarts, I don’t think taxing EV kWh’s is going to be a challenge. Of course some enterprising crims will be rigging up homebrew workarounds, just as they do with red diesel etc, but overall I’d expect it to be a pretty simple and expeditious way of replacing RFL.

[hawkinspeter]

Sriracha wrote:

Sriracha wrote:

Sooner or later I guess they will tax electricity delivered to EVs.

Well, they already do, but presumably you mean an extra tax for EVs.

I don’t think differentiating between the end uses of electricity is that useful (although I’d welcome extra taxes on shops with open-front fridges) and it might end up with people fitting solar power and off-setting against their car rather than their heating bills – there’s too many loopholes.

The major problems with EVs are their weight, use of rare metals and road congestion, so I think extra taxes should be targetting those issues.

[Sriracha]

Sooner or later I guess they
Sooner or later I guess they will tax electricity delivered to EVs.

[hawkinspeter]

ktache wrote:

They will not reinstate the 5p drop just before a potential election.

Rishi might not last a week, let alone the next year. Some one is gunning for him. The unkempt slob denies it’s anyone at No 10, but seeing that he seemed completely oblivious to some raucous parties going on In there, some of which he was at, I’m not convinced by his pleading…

What’s Rishi’s next step? Reducing alcohol duty on vintage champagne?

[hawkinspeter]

Hmmm – a tax based on licence

Hmmm – a tax based on licence points would seem to be de-criminalising it, whereas we need to emphasise that points are the result of criminal and dangerous behaviour. Also, any law that results in a financial penalty is merely a law for the poor and can be ignored by the wealthy.

[ktache]

They will not reinstate the

They will not reinstate the 5p drop just before a potential election.

Rishi might not last a week, let alone the next year. Some one is gunning for him. The unkempt slob denies it’s anyone at No 10, but seeing that he seemed completely oblivious to some raucous parties going on In there, some of which he was at, I’m not convinced by his pleading…

[Cycloid]

Hi Simon

Hi Simon
I take your points.
My post is very much tongue in cheek and not meant to be taken too seriously.
On taxing drivers with points on their license I am becoming more interested.
I got knocked off my bike in Feb, by a driver with 30 (yes 30) points on his license, but that is another story
 

[Author]

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