[Secret_squirrel]

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/05/shimano-forces-hammerhead-to-remove-all-di2-related-functionality-from-karoo.html/comment-page-1#comment-4084366

Having literally just bought a Karoo 2 I’m irritated.  Makes me far less likely to buy Shimano again.  Crappy bullies.  (Hammerhead got bought by Sram, but Shimano dont make a head unit so there’s no direct competition).

Topic

[hawkinspeter]

Secret_squirrel wrote:

If its a decent API implementation there is no proprietary information to leak, apart from the specs themselves which have already left the stable…..

That’s true for public, documented APIs, but not necessarily true for private APIs. I seem to remember Microsoft used to (still does?) make use of private APIs for its own software and force other software manufacturers to use their more limited public APIs. (There’s also the whole shenanigans between Google and Oracle about whether APIs can be copyrighted and/or patented).

However, I suspect that this case is more of a case of needing a licence/agreement to use the API and Shimano are cancelling that. It makes me wonder what would happen if a 3rd party reverse engineered the protocol/API and then sold products based on that – would Shimano try to sue them?

[Secret_squirrel]

If its a decent API

If its a decent API implementation there is no proprietary information to leak, apart from the specs themselves which have already left the stable…..

[Secret_squirrel]

I dont believe thats the case

I dont believe thats the case.  The headunit just shows what its told to show be it 1 gear or 20. 

Regardless they just delay publishing the specs to Hammerhead until the offical product release date.

[Flâneur]

If this is a big deal for you

If this is a big deal for you, just don’t install any Hammerhead updates until this is resolved. That’s what I’m planning on doing,

[Jetmans Dad]

“(Hammerhead got bought by

“(Hammerhead got bought by Sram, but Shimano dont make a head unit so there’s no direct competition)”

Except there is … just not in the head unit department. Shimano were clearly OK with the head unit thing, as evidenced by the fact that they were comfortable with the Karoo 2 displaying data from the Di2 unit while Hammerhead were independent. 

The issue is presumably in continuing to provide ongoing properietary information on updates etc. to a company now owned by one of their competitors in the groupset market and who make electronic/wireless shifting systems of their own. 

I can definitely see both sides of this one. 

[Happymanc]

I’m guessing this isnt just a

I’m guessing this isnt just a straightforward bully stance  because Shimano need to make the bike computers  manufactureres aware of their products before they are released so the software can be updated eg, 11 to 12 speed on the rear. If they were to continue suppporting the Hammerhead then they would be advising their biggest competitor of their proiduct release plans, which no one in their right mind would do. Its deffinitley an advantage to third party computers and a worry that cycing products seem to be consolidating at the moment which cant be a good thing for consmers.   

[IanMSpencer]

I’ve got second generation

I’ve got second generation Ultegra Di2 which does not support bluetooth or dinky programming, so you need a new battery and then have to add the doobries. The new wireless changer Di2 12 speed Ultegra has it all integrated in without the need for any additional stuff, I believe it is all built into the rear derailleur which is where the charger point for the seat post battery is and the buttons that used to be on the junction box. You’ll be pleased to know that my mate who has it found out that the front derailleur still fails first with a flat battery. Matey linked his Di2 to his Garmin with more or less a single click without supervision, and he is a doctor so incapable of operating new fangled mechanical devices.

[hawkinspeter]

IanMSpencer wrote:

IanMSpencer wrote:

Di2 has been improved since then and now all the Bluetooth stuff is built in.

Is it in the battery? With my system, the MT800 display provides the Bluetooth functionality (that I never use).

[IanMSpencer]

Di2 has been improved since
Di2 has been improved since then and now all the Bluetooth stuff is built in.

[Secret_squirrel]

Its not mentioned but I

Its not mentioned but I presume it also disables the “gps page switch” option for the DI2 hood buttons and the ability to switch synco modes on the fly from the Karoo 2.  Both not functions I used but would like to have had the option.

 Ultimately knowing what gear I’m in is a nice to have since my Di2 is set up for syncro so I just mindlessly go up and down the cogs.  

Does make me less likely to support Shimano in the future though.

[hawkinspeter]

mark1a wrote:

Di2 only broadcasts on ANT+ via a private channel, as the D-Fly units predate the open standard ANT+ shifting protocol that Campagnolo and SRAM adopted after that became a standard. So no Bluetooth and Shimano presumably have no intention of moving away from their proprietary protocol. 

It doesn’t affect me as a Garmin Edge user, but it bothers me that Shimano could one day see Garmin as a competitor (power meters) and switch the same functionality off. 

Wahoo could be in the same boat now they’ve acquired Speedplay. 

As I recall, you can get Di2 gear information over Bluetooth if you’ve got the extra Shimano Bluetooth adapter – I connected my Wahoo Bolt that way, but found it was a little bit slow updating the gear and instead went for the MT800 handlebar display (wired in).

[mark1a]

hawkinspeter wrote:

That sucks. This is the kind of thing that bugs me about proprietary systems and the artificial problems caused by companies and their tech.

Does the Karoo just use ANT+ to talk with the Di2 system or can it use Bluetooth? (I use a Wahoo Bolt, so am not directly affected by this).

Di2 only broadcasts on ANT+ via a private channel, as the D-Fly units predate the open standard ANT+ shifting protocol that Campagnolo and SRAM adopted after that became a standard. So no Bluetooth and Shimano presumably have no intention of moving away from their proprietary protocol. 

It doesn’t affect me as a Garmin Edge user, but it bothers me that Shimano could one day see Garmin as a competitor (power meters) and switch the same functionality off. 

Wahoo could be in the same boat now they’ve acquired Speedplay. 

[hawkinspeter]

That sucks. This is the kind

That sucks. This is the kind of thing that bugs me about proprietary systems and the artificial problems caused by companies and their tech.

Does the Karoo just use ANT+ to talk with the Di2 system or can it use Bluetooth? (I use a Wahoo Bolt, so am not directly affected by this).

[Author]

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