[chrisonabike]

Just watching Bicycledutch’s latest:

La Vuelta a España in ʼs-Hertogenbosch

It’s a tour round the centre of his home town. It’s almost the definition of “narrow historic streets”, with lots of shops / destinations. As he points out there actually isn’t much “cycle infra” and when it’s there it’s outdated “advisory cycle lanes”. However tons of people are walking about. Lots of those probably got there by bike.

Is it the culture? Because it’s flat? Not that many hilly town centres – OK, Durham, parts of Edinburgh…

Just notice: you can hear people, not cars.
Pedestrianised areas, one way streets (for vehicles), LOTS of vehicle filters including several rising bollards and bus gates. Also note there are plenty of parked cars but these are in marked spaces or in bays. Very few blocking bike lanes or footway.

I wouldn’t have chosen to cycle on Kerkstraat myself:

… far too many people walking. However the world doesn’t end.

This is most definitely something many places in the UK – especially historic places with tourism – could do pretty cheaply, no? It doesn’t seem to be killing local businesses, rather the reverse.

Choices and priorities.

Topic

[Simon E]

Kapelmuur wrote:

I was born and raised in Shrewsbury, the medieval town centre is contained within a loop of the river Severn and is unsuitable for motor traffic.    

However it’s a deeply conservative place and any suggestion that motor traffic should not be allowed to snarl up the town centre is bitterly opposed.

The deeply conservative and Conservative-run council has been notoriously backward and pro-car, not just within the loop.

A 10am-4pm traffic ban was introduced on High Street and Shoplatch on Saturdays and Sundays in late 2021 after one created in the 2020 lockdown was subsequently lifted. It has been very well received but it’s still described as ‘a trial’.

But being in the town centre is a far more enjoyable experience without the constant stream of vehicles. High Street should have been pedestrianised years ago, as was done to Pride Hill. The vast majority of drivers are using the town centre simply as a short cut, not a destination or a ‘pop into x in town on my way to y’ multi-stop journey.

[chrisonabike]

Bmblbzzz wrote:

Bmblbzzz wrote:

Dutch cyclists really believe in conservation of momentum, don’t they!

Don’t all cyclists? I certainly would if I’d a durable English Roadster (AKA Dutch bike).

Bmblbzzz wrote:

Apart from Kerkstraat, I’m surprised by how quiet it all is; not just lack of motor (and other wheeled) traffic, but not even that many people around. Of course, it might have been filmed on a Sunday morning.

Me too. I do love the sounds you can hear in videos from urban NL – NotJustBikes has a good one on that:

Bmblbzzz wrote:

I was also surprised to see that on the toekan (that’s Dutch for toucan, I just looked it up ) crossing, the cycle light goes green but pedestrians still have red. 

That’s just the start of the “alien concepts” – although more places including my town (Edinburgh) now have “advanced green” for cyclists. See what we could do with no roadbuilding required (apparently may not be prohibited by our current rules):
https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2008/08/simultaneous-green.html

[Bmblbzzz]

Dutch cyclists really believe

Dutch cyclists really believe in conservation of momentum, don’t they!

Apart from Kerkstraat, I’m surprised by how quiet it all is; not just lack of motor (and other wheeled) traffic, but not even that many people around. Of course, it might have been filmed on a Sunday morning. I was also surprised to see that on the toekan (that’s Dutch for toucan, I just looked it up ) crossing, the cycle light goes green but pedestrians still have red. 

[chrisonabike]

In almost every case I can
In almost every case I can think of proper cycling infra also benefits the disabled and pedestrians. (And drivers too but we don’t always want to talk about that!). Provisions making places accessible for those with disabilities often benefit those without.

I’d be tempted just to call this “designing for humans, not just some humans”.

[chrisonabike]

If you reach out to the
Yes – often obviously selective concern:

Selective concern

If you reach out to the disability access groups they’ll know!
Speculating but I think all except mechanically propelled vehicles can use any cycle paths / tracks. I’d guess effectively anyone can use cycle lanes. As Cycling UK point out the rules there are a mess – tons of exceptions for cars:
https://www.cyclinguk.org/blog/underhand-law-change-undermines-mandatory-cycle-lanes

In general the Road Traffic Act has lots of vehicle definitions: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/part/VII/crossheading/interpretation/enacted?view=plain
CPS have some guidance and also point out that “mechanically propelled vehicle” isn’t actually defined: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary-offences#_Toc536179984
Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle information her for completeness: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles-eapcs/electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles-eapcs-in-great-britain-information-sheet

[chrisonabike]

I hope we’re converging on
I hope we’re converging on something like this:

Who else benefits from the Dutch cycling infrastructure

Possibly without the motor scooters (small motorbikes) – although a few (David Hembrow) suggest they cause far more aggravation than actual issues.

[mattw]

Generally agree. There are a

Generally agree. There are a lot of different statuses of cycle infra.

I often chat with the people at the mobility-scooter shop.

[mattw]

I think they do campaign for

I think they do campaign for it.

Recently in my area we have had access to a local park made possible for people in Type III scooters where previously there had been an anti-cycling anti-disabled A barrier.

That was blocking a lit cycle track that had been in place for 25 years.

They did it by installing a different version (wider with handlebar skid plates not bars), which was sub-optimal – should just have left a 1.2m clear gap, or wider with one central post.

I had pointed out to the local County Councillor doing her rounds that granny on her scooter was unable to go to the playground with the kids. Here’s the old version. No idea whether I had any impact, but something did.

There’s a decent cycle way for a mile through the 1990s estate, but 7 or 8 of the A barriers stops anyone using it.

 

[mattw]

The Fowey plan seems like

The Fowey plan seems like overreach by the Town Council.

Not even a shred of support from tourism businesses in the consultation. And some overclaiming, plus buzzword bingo (“Go Dutch”). And changes are possible by the look of it without going so far as to prevent people accessing their own homes in the day over quite long sections of street (see The Esplanade, for example).

Given that the local population is dominated by 65+, concerns seem reasonable. And it’s the local population that should get to decide.

Reading the Masterplan, there’s a lot to do to improve active travel without the need for the above.

More homework and a better balance required, I think.

[Car Delenda Est]

Funny how these disabled
Funny how these disabled rights activists are never campaigning to let mobility scooters and powered wheelchairs use cycle infra.
(Not saying that would meet the needs of every person with mobility issues)

On a related note: can anyone tell me if unpowered wheelchairs can use cycle lanes and tracks? Can’t seem to find anything on it.

[chrisonabike]

Sounds like “bloody tourists”
Sounds like “bloody tourists” more than anything. A good reminder that consultations normally attract the strongly anti to the exclusion of almost everyone else.

I liked “Residents must have access to their properties at all times especially if they have a parking space. How else are they able to exit the town in an emergency for example?”
So provision or just existence of parking spaces guarantees their accessibility 24 / 7. The proposed changes specifically permit emergency and disabled access and there’s also a planned route out for those who “accidentally” get in – so here we’ve the demotic meaning of “emergency”. I think this does reflect how many (most?) people feel about their cars though. A right to supermobility and an emergency appliance.

[David9694]

Fowey pedestrianisation plan

Fowey pedestrianisation plan would ‘imprison residents in their own homes’ between June and August

‘Fowey is a working town, not a model village for tourists,’ a resident commented. Meanwhile, residents are being reassured that these are just ideas which are not ‘set in stone’

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/fowey-pedestrianisation-plan-would-imprison-7482305

[chrisonabike]

I know people have honest
I know people have honest concerns. I think the common ones are “no-one will be able to get to my shop / they won’t be able to carry my grand pianos home any more”. Covered before:
https://road.cc/content/news/13-many-berlin-shoppers-drove-retailers-assumed-285057?amp
This even happened in the Netherlands:

The Demonstration Cycle Route in The Hague

There are concerns about delivery times / loading etc. Difficult in the UK where people have got used to “anytime, anywhere” access. Not because we don’t have restrictions but they’re so poorly enforced.
People worry about how they will get to centres. That can be valid – we’ve baked in infrastructure ensuring car dependency in many places. The issue is we’re reaching capacity now but there are more people…
Then there’s “but the main through road goes via the town centre” – often true but again this is infrastructural debt and is not optimal.
Disabled people – or more often those proporting to represent them – may be worried about access and more cycling. It’s already often crap for these people so I sympathise. Strangely, decent active travel infra is beneficial for them, more so than the status quo:

Who else benefits from the Dutch cycling infrastructure

[Kapelmuur]

I was born and raised in

I was born and raised in Shrewsbury, the medieval town centre is contained within a loop of the river Severn and is unsuitable for motor traffic.    

However it’s a deeply conservative place and any suggestion that motor traffic should not be allowed to snarl up the town centre is bitterly opposed.

[Author]

Replies