[Jimnm]

Who would be in favour of a change in the law regarding charges against drivers who actually kill cyclists through carelessness! I would say that the minimum charge for causing the death of a cyclist should be at least Manslaughter. The law is far too soft in this regard. You hear of  community service of 200 hours over 12 months and a 2 years driving ban! I personally think it’s bloody outrageous when they have taken a life, which also deeply affects the victim’s family. If the law was tougher then hopefully drivers would be more careful on our roads knowing that they could go to prison for 5 years. Then we might see deaths and injuries to cyclists reduce. Hopefully! 
Comments welcome…

 

Topic

[andystow]

The problem is that most bad

The problem is that most bad drivers would have no problem passing a test. Wow, one day a year you have to show up sober and drive to the letter of the law and the HC.

It would be a bit like testing people who’ve committed assault in the past by having them show up for a test where they pass if they don’t punch somebody for two whole hours.

[chrisonabike]

What I’ve bleated on about

What I’ve bleated on about here far too often.

It’s a licenced activity.  There is a fairly objective standard for judging this (driving test).  Just link the two already!  You can always give the judiciary / jury other “how long’s a piece of string” parts to this (sentencing is clearly one) or make cross-examining a driving test examiner a thing if that’s what we thing is most consistent with our legal system, but bring in some objectivity for goodness sakes.  (Even if magistrates / judges / juries go right on listening to their own biases initially…)

[mattw]

I think we need to reframe

I think we need to reframe the current definitions.

“Careless” is not on the same linear scale as “Reckless” and “Dangerous”.

The lower than expected standard / even lower than that etc is absurd.

[IanMSpencer]

Yes, I think you are right,
Yes, I think you are right, and if “I didn’t mean to be careless/dangerous” is not successful in resisting the charge, it does seem to be a mitigation in sentencing, or the omnipresent “I was only careless for a moment so that doesn’t count.”

[NOtotheEU]

chrisonatrike wrote:

What I’m saying is how quickly can you get that automatic driving-checker black box device combined with a driving licence-reader and ignition cut-off?

A good way to bring that into law in a way that does not upset current (voting) drivers may be to make it only apply to new drivers yet to pass their test in a similar way (legal) smoking is being phased out in some countries. 

Current drivers will be pleased there will be less new dangerous drivers to crash into them and can feel smug it doesn’t apply to them. One obvious downside is that in 70 years time when all the current drivers are gone driver controlled vehicles will be gone too.

[NOtotheEU]

Totally agree with you.

Totally agree with you.

Driving a vehicle is a choice the driver makes in the full knowledge that if they don’t pay full attention or use it recklessly someone could be killed. It should be treated the same as If you left the house with a knife or gun and killed someone with it. Would the police, CPS or a jury fall for “I shot or stabbed them to death accidently” in such a case?

[jaymack]

All drivers will hate this

All drivers will hate this idea, I’m a driver and I hate it, regular retesting with any failures being bumped back to having a provisonal licence and having to pass an extended test second time around would be the best way of addressing bad driving. Well that and enforcement of course. After all prevention is the far less expensive option. 

[HoarseMann]

Don’t forget the 1 point,

Don’t forget the 1 point, that will add up!

I’m sure there are some rich people who would be unfazed by the fine, but a lot of wealthy people are also very tight and would definately begrudge it.

Plus don’t forget at lot of people are not doing this on purpose, sometimes they literally have no idea they made a mistake. Getting just a single point on their licence might make them read the relevant sections of the highway code.

I would also prefer a ban, but that would involve a court and we all know how reluctant they are to impose driving bans. I’d rather focus on getting something, anything, in way of enforcement than increasing penalties that are already rarely applied.

[chrisonabike]

Yes.  But …  that only

Yes.  But …  that only works if people think they’ll get caught if they flout the ban.  And we seem not to have so many coppers these days *.  Also the punishment for breaching bans currently seems to be “more ban”.

What I’m saying is how quickly can you get that automatic driving-checker black box device combined with a driving licence-reader and ignition cut-off?

* Under years of … (checks notes) Conservative government…

[hawkinspeter]

HoarseMann wrote:

I reckon there should be a fixed penalty for inconsiderate driving of £50 and 1 point, with a much lower bar for prosecution than careless (classed as a fault/fail in a driving test) – ideally could be handed out by a civil enforcement organisation so the police and courts are not burdened. 

A fine of £50 means that it’s only law for poor people. I’d prefer something like a months driving ban.

[hawkinspeter]

Jimnm wrote:

That’s absolutely correct, I thank you for that Peter ?

You’re welcome.

I’m not convinced that a longer prison sentence would work as a deterrent as most people don’t believe that they’ll have a tragic collision (until they do). What I’d much rather see is a lifetime driving ban if a driver is found at fault (wholly or partially) for a collision that takes someone’s life or inflicts life-changing injuries. That way the judge can give them 200 hours community service, but at least they’ll never be on the roads again.

[HoarseMann]

I don’t think a harsher

I don’t think a harsher penalty would be a deterrent, but it would help with getting justice.

Death by careless driving is usually a culmination of poor driving habits and unfortunate timing. You can’t do much about being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but you can catch the poor driving before it becomes a habit if you have adequate enforcement.

Careless driving is too difficult to prosecute. It’s not as straight forward as a speeding fine, so often goes unpunished.

I reckon there should be a fixed penalty for inconsiderate driving of £50 and 1 point, with a much lower bar for prosecution than careless (classed as a fault/fail in a driving test) – ideally could be handed out by a civil enforcement organisation so the police and courts are not burdened. 

[Jimnm]

That’s absolutely correct, I

That’s absolutely correct, I thank you for that Peter ?

[quiff]

Yep. The second and third

Yep. The second and third variants don’t require intent to kill / injure. But the third one does require intent to commit some other unlawful act.

The alternative verdict bit means the jury can convict of manslaughter if they’re not persuaded the defendant intended to kill.

[chrisonabike]

Weren’t “Causing death by

Weren’t “Causing death by dangerous driving” and “Causing death by careless driving” brought in precisely because of difficulties getting convictions using murder / manslaughter?  Because the average jurist / juror held that those were for actual criminals and evil people.  Whereas driving is a normal, everyday activity – me, my family and friends do it all the time, with almost no issues.  We also know though that maybe we’re not as conscientious as we could be when driving.  We accept that people can get distracted, don’t remember to look sometimes, maybe even have “isolated” moments of anger.  Plus “accidents happen”?

It’s a complicated situation as the law stands currently.  It does seem to me – when reading the court cases – that some kind of “need to show a degree of intent” has definitely crept back in to these charges.  Despite (I think?) part of the idea being to remove that?

We could do with someone – maybe a longtime poster here – reminding everyone of the need for some kind of legal review of this area…

[Author]

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