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dave atkinson.
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May 29, 2012 at 11:12 am #15937
londonplayer
During the Spring Classics, no GC points were awarded in the FC comp. (probably because it would be impossible to calculate them!). As the Giro has just finished, I just wondered what other players views are on whether they should be awarded during Grand Tours.
The alternative name of this game is “Guess who’s going to be in the Top 20 in this Stage”. Why should you get points for GC places?
As has been mentioned on a previous thread, once someone obtains a high position in a particular Grand Tour, it can be difficult or almost impossible to catch them. I plead guilty to doing this myself, as I stock up with GC riders who may also place high in the individual Stage. eg Joaquin Rodriguez, Ivan Basso, Pozzovivo etc. etc.
Wouldn’t it liven things up a bit to abolish the points for GC classification? Players would have to guess their nine riders for each stage and it would make the game more fluid.
BTW, before anyone lays into me, I’m just throwing this out there as an idea, not necessarily saying it should be implemented.
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dave atkinson
plus, we’re busy making all
plus, we’re busy making all sorts of new and exciting stuffdrheaton
Right now I think the balance
Right now I think the balance is pretty much spot on, what you want is for your transfers to have the potential to really improve your score (which they do) and for your team to need changing consistently through the tour to get the most points (which it does). Making the right choices with your transfers is what makes the game interesting.Whatever the scoring system the best teams will always end up with the same 7, 8 or even 9 riders depending on whatever gives the best points whether that’s from breakaways, stage finishes or GC/jersey points. There’s not much you can really do to change that. Likewise if someone gets a lead over you its going to be very difficult to overhaul them whatever the points system because once you start making high risk/reward transfers you’re always going to lose out unless you have incredible luck. One transfer gone wrong and you’re even further behind and need to take even bigger risks
STEVESPRO is right though, the move to premium was a huge change and the game needs time now to settle down, I think refining the scoring systems might be something to consider at the end of the season but nothing should change before then and I’m sure there’ll be plenty more suggested changes before we get there.
Raleigh
Gkam84 wrote:Raleigh
Gkam84 wrote:Raleigh wrote:
And jersey winners.Which is another thing, I think that holding a jersey should be worth more points than it is now, especially the young riders jersey.
The problem with that, your going to end up with alot of teams having GC leader, Sprint leader, KoM Leader and Young Leader, stacking up points without having to make changes ;)
Hmmm.
Gkam84
Raleigh wrote:
And jerseyRaleigh wrote:
And jersey winners.Which is another thing, I think that holding a jersey should be worth more points than it is now, especially the young riders jersey.
The problem with that, your going to end up with alot of teams having GC leader, Sprint leader, KoM Leader and Young Leader, stacking up points without having to make changes 😉
There was the suggestion a
There was the suggestion a few months ago that you pick your stage winners for each stage, and your top ten GC.These correspond to points, added to your final score.
It would be quite interesting to make these points stupidly overvalued, at say 50 points for picking a stage winner, and 25 for each GC place you pick correctly.
And jersey winners.
Which is another thing, I think that holding a jersey should be worth more points than it is now, especially the young riders jersey.
Also, the main issue was the
Also, the main issue was the ability to move and down the leagues easier. Adding more breakaway points wouldn’t change it. Instead of having Golas and Rubiano for a guaranteed 4 and 5 points mid-Giro I’d have had Keizer and Kaisen for probably a guaranteed 20 or 40 points per stage… the problem? So would everyone else.enrique wrote:I’d also like
enrique wrote:I’d also like KOM points awarded on the last climb of a day that finishes on a climb… which is not being done roght now… It seems a little weird to award them throughout the stage but not at the finish… but only (!) KOM points! I think PC points are accounted for in the Finish Line points…Not sure if I agree with this, and anyway, PC points aren’t covered in the finish line points on sprint stages. It’d really really bias the game in favour of picking the top 5 or so finishers, 35 points + 25 or so KoM or PC points would give 60 for 1st, a massive massive bias away from how the points stand currently.
Gkam84 wrote:Because in my eyes, quite a few stages wouldn’t be worth watching if it wasn’t for the break away guys.But if you think about it. More points should be awarded to things that are harder to predict. Break away’s are just that.
Look at a sprint stage, where Cav, Goss, Farrar, Greipel. Ok there may be others that got into the top few places, But one of them is going to be in the top 5, unless the finish has been set up badly with stupid corners and everyone crashes. So thats not hard to predict.
Same goes for summit finishes and stages with a few Cat 1’s or HC climbs, in any one race, there are only going to be a handful of riders who finish in the top places. Making it somewhat predictable.
If you want hard to predict why not give 10 points for the 77th rider across the finish line, or the 10 points to each rider from the team of the guy finishing 7th? An extra 100 points for the team that scores 91st on the stage? There needs to be a balance between predictably (ie skill based) and unpredictability (part luck but also hunches and feelings on who’s going to do well).
Giving too many points to breaks would, in my opinion, skew the game away from being skill based and too far towards being luck based. If you can get more points from picking 9 possible breakaway riders than using skill and picking maybe 1 successful breakaway rider, 3 GC guys and 5 top 10 finishes then the game would be less fun rather than more fun.
STEVESPRO 79
In my opinion,the game has
In my opinion,the game has the right balance as regards scoring….It doesnt need tinkering with at the moment…Any tinkering should be done at the end of the current game and not mid-season…..We are all playing in the same field…..The game is not broke so why try and fix it….Seems to me that some people are just never satisfied…. B-)drheaton wrote:
I reallydrheaton wrote:
I really don’t like the idea that at 20 points having someone in a break who doesn’t get any sprint or KoM points would be worth the same as a rider finishing in the top 5 on the stage. Yeah, breakaway winners should be worth a shed load of points, likewise riders who get plenty of KoM points in a break, but why should being in a failed break be rewarded, as a bare minimum, as well as finishing 5th on the stage?Because in my eyes, quite a few stages wouldn’t be worth watching if it wasn’t for the break away guys.
But if you think about it. More points should be awarded to things that are harder to predict. Break away’s are just that.
Look at a sprint stage, where Cav, Goss, Farrar, Greipel. Ok there may be others that got into the top few places, But one of them is going to be in the top 5, unless the finish has been set up badly with stupid corners and everyone crashes. So thats not hard to predict.
Same goes for summit finishes and stages with a few Cat 1’s or HC climbs, in any one race, there are only going to be a handful of riders who finish in the top places. Making it somewhat predictable.
enrique
drheaton wrote:…why should
drheaton wrote:…why should being in a break be rewarded as well as finishing 5th on the stage?…I agree… but I’d be ok with any rider who gets away on a break to get 5 points for the day… It’s commensurate to the 5 points awarded to the stage weiner’s teammates…
I’d also like KOM points awarded on the last climb of a day that finishes on a climb… which is not being done roght now… It seems a little weird to award them throughout the stage but not at the finish… but only (!) KOM points! I think PC points are accounted for in the Finish Line points…
Gkam84 wrote:But I do think
Gkam84 wrote:But I do think if break away points were higher, it would make the game more interesting. Say a group of 10 or less got away, have a minute over the pack at half way, bonus, 10 points. BUT, I could have the same 10 points on the opening stages just be having the top GC guy in my team and he’ll be up there in the finishes, In the opening stage’s aswell, Normally if your top GC, you’ve also got some points to score in the points jersey. So why risk a break guy for “safe” points.Normally the break away is going to get caught anyway, so you might just get the 10 points from the guy you have in the break, plus a couple here or there if he crosses a sprint or KoM in a good spot.
BUT if the break of 10 or less were getting say 20 points… are you going to keep the safety of your GC leader for 10 plus maybe 4 for points?
That 20 for a break, could easily be 25-30 after the KoM and Sprints and then even 50-70 if they stayed away. I’d rather risk a break away over the GC guy ;)
I really don’t like the idea that at 20 points having someone in a break who doesn’t get any sprint or KoM points would be worth the same as a rider finishing in the top 5 on the stage. Yeah, breakaway winners should be worth a shed load of points, likewise riders who get plenty of KoM points in a break, but why should being in a failed break be rewarded, as a bare minimum, as well as finishing 5th on the stage?
Skibish
As a purist I’ve found the
As a purist I’ve found the mix of points awarded works well – I imagine for those running the game it is a difficult ballance setting scoring to please both purists and non-purists. My plea to keep GC points would be based on the importance in real-life teams place in having a rider place high on GC in a tour – see how much sky made of having 2riders in the top 10 of Giro – alongside the importance of taking individual stages.Thats going to be a problem
Thats going to be a problem with Radioshack and BMC this year in the TdF with all their big guns, you’ll be lucky is there are 4/5 DS’s between them.But I do think if break away points were higher, it would make the game more interesting. Say a group of 10 or less got away, have a minute over the pack at half way, bonus, 10 points. BUT, I could have the same 10 points on the opening stages just be having the top GC guy in my team and he’ll be up there in the finishes, In the opening stage’s aswell, Normally if your top GC, you’ve also got some points to score in the points jersey. So why risk a break guy for “safe” points.
Normally the break away is going to get caught anyway, so you might just get the 10 points from the guy you have in the break, plus a couple here or there if he crosses a sprint or KoM in a good spot.
BUT if the break of 10 or less were getting say 20 points… are you going to keep the safety of your GC leader for 10 plus maybe 4 for points?
That 20 for a break, could easily be 25-30 after the KoM and Sprints and then even 50-70 if they stayed away. I’d rather risk a break away over the GC guy 😉
thefatcyclist
You can’t rely on new ds
You can’t rely on new ds coming through every season, I scored some good points with the Uni SA guys in the TDU after Dave added that team, and similarily with the Livestrong Bontragers in the TOC, but that took a bit of rerearch, then conversely and through complete stupidity didn’t put Haussler in 4 times, and picked the wrong Livestrong rider for climbs. You can’t make these stupid errors. I banked on Italians doing well in the Giro, but they were poor this year. Kittel was great last season as a ds, a bargain, this year he is a poor value star, try and pick DS to win sprints in the Dauphine, where there are so few. Conversely try to decide which of the plethora of star sprinters in the TDS will win stages. This game is now really difficult, great but difficult. We will see just how difficult in the Tour, when a lot of this seasons star performers will not be present. Where the big consolodated teams will have an embarresment of riches, and when the types of stages, make forward planning difficult. 10 stages with medium mountains thrown in ending in a time trial before a rest day, going to need these 4 transfers, then a plain/high/plain/high combination.as part of the 2nd half of the race. You can’t afford to sacrifice stages for ones to come now, or you are dead, so unless a pattern appears early like in Giro 2011, it will be very hard.
Thanks dave 😀Agreed, consistency is the
Agreed, consistency is the key, I was looking at the stages where I dropped points in the Giro and it was mainly the first two sprint days (I didn’t have Cav the first day when he won, I did the second when he crashed) and stages 8 (didn’t have enough top 10 finishers) and 17 (when I dropped Hesjedal for Rujano because I was break hunting).No amount of breakaway points would have made up for my mistakes on those stages. Those four stages amounted to 161 of the 185 points I dropped on 1st place, and three of those stages came in the first 8 days meaning I was always behind.
Consistent high scoring, on all stages is the key to winning. A few lucky breaks always helps but you need to be up there permanently. One bad day can ruin everything.
Also, adding breakaway bonus points wouldn’t really affect the last week (which is usually mountain heavy), it’d just mean that if you pick a rider in a breakaway who doesn’t do a Rabottini and go after all the KoM points (if there’s say a 10 or 15 man break only 3 or 4 will get plenty of points from summits) you get a consolation 5 or 10 points for your troubles. You’ll still drop points because you’d have been better off with a Pozzovivo/Henao rather than your Sella/Nievi but you won’t drop as many points. If you pick a Rabottini then you’re already doing well to the tune of 50+ points, another 10 wouldn’t encourage you to go after more breaks, it’d just reward you more for getting it right.
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