How to stir up a hornets nest

  • This topic has 28 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 14 years ago by cavasta.
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  • #15934
    Stumps

    Whilst at work on Friday a colleague on his bike was hit by a car.

    He basically got flung onto the bonnet and headbutted the car’s windscreen and bodywork. His helmet split and he was thrown back into the road. Fortunately he only suffered minor cuts and bruises.

    Now for the hornet part – the consultant has said that after he had a ct scan and all the rest done that the helmet, in his opinion, stopped serious if not life threatening injuries. Remember this is a senior consultant in the trauma unit.

    This thread is NOT being posted for people to start arguing over helemts and their use but just for cyclists to sit and think about whether they put a helmet on or not when they next go cycling. I feel that without the helmet my friend and colleague might not be here today.

    Please think hard about your choice when you next go out cheers folks.

Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 28 total)
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  • #682351
    0
    cavasta

    How do they fare in Holland,
    How do they fare in Holland, where hardly anyone wears a helmet?

    #682349
    0
    Stumps

    There are some wide ranging
    There are some wide ranging and completely well explained posts both for and against the use of helmets which is what i hoped for and not someone using the post to rant about how “they are right” and everyone else is wrong.

    The use of helmets will always be down to individual choice and rightly or wrongly i dont think the govt should bring in legislation saying that we must wear a lid.

    Better road craft by drivers and better road systems and cycle paths are the answer.

    Thanks to everyone who contributed đŸ˜€

    #682347
    0
    giff77

    One thing I’ve noticed lately
    One thing I’ve noticed lately is that when the media report a fatality/serious injury of a cyclist they are very quick to highlight in grave tones that the “cyclist was not wearing a helmet” When they do not highlight this “misdemeanour” you can be guaranteed that the victim was in fact wearing a helmet and all the other gumph that we are persuaded to wear by the authorities.

    Every day when I go out on the bike it is a battle of nerves, sheer grit and determination to cycle assertively and force motorists to take notice of me. And all the govt can do is propose bills to make me wear a helmet for my “safety” rather than grasp the nettle and put the onus of road safety on the motorist.

    #682345
    0
    Paul J

    So you’re allowed to give
    So you’re allowed to give anecdotes, from a biased source, telling people to wear a helmet, but no one is allowed to reply with a contrary opinion? Nice…

    Trauma consultants are:

    a) Biased, by the nature of their job, to consider only a small sample of accidents, those which had the most severe outcome. They do not get to see a representative set of accidents and outcomes.

    b) Though medical consultants have some scientific and statistical training, they are not scientists nor are they statisticians. While they may have great medical expertise in their field, they can be quite inexperienced at producing scientifically and statistically rigorous conclusions.

    Saying “X says so” is arguing by appeal to authority (rather than reason or fact). That the authority being appealed to isn’t even working in a relevant field makes this an appeal to *false* authority.

    Seeing as it seems to be acceptable to argue by anecdote, I was knocked down by a car. I wasn’t wearing a helmet. I hit my head, but I was OK. Many people, in fact, have fallen or been knocked off bikes and hit their heads and have been fine. There are likely about as many such anecdotes as there are for helmet-wearing. Each, of themselves, is meaningless.

    The best thing to do is to look at the science. On just the question of helmets alone, while it is clear that helmets reduce head injury it is *not clear* they reduce injury *overall*. This is because other injuries (neck, face) *increase* amongst helmet wearers. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000145751100008X).

    Further, it is frankly stupid to consider just head injuries as the only outcome. The outcome that matters is *overall health*. If cyclists wearing helmets saves 1 head, but then costs 1000 hearts because of people being put off cycling then you have a worse overall public health outcome. I don’t know of societal-level studies, but there have been computer model studies which suggest this is the case.

    Going on about the need to wear helmets, as appears to be so common here in the UK – including by some cyclists, may be counter-productive. It helps reinforce the notion held by many here that cycling is dangerous. So likely depresses cycling rates. It deflects attention from the fact that helmets make little difference to overall injury rates, that the *root* cause of cyclist injuries tends to be motorised, vehicular traffic and the lack of segregation between them and cyclists.

    E.g. the Netherlands has very high rates of cycling and very low rates of helmet use, compared to the UK. Despite this, the Netherlands has *much* better outcomes. They have significantly lower cyclist injury rates, despite the lack of helmets – so we know, for a *fact* that cycle-helmets are *not* a pre-requisite for safe cycling. Further, though their obesity rates have been rising, as everywhere, theirs are still significantly lower than in the UK (circa 11% v 25% – I don’t have exact figures).

    The obsession in the UK on safety “talismans” – i.e. helmets and hi-viz – is sad and tragic. It seems to be a consequence of a broad feeling that cycling is odd & dangerous, which leads to low cycling rates, which leads to the remaining cyclists feeling threatened by other road users who lack understanding. It seems many cyclists, unable to affect substantive change in the road environment and road safety because of their dwindled numbers, turn towards ineffective safety equipment, to try reassure themselves. The really sad part is that in doing so, they may be helping reinforce the “Cycling is dangerous!!” culture that prevails in the UK – so helping to keep cycling rates depressed and making it hard for real change!

    What’s really sad is when those talisman-embracing cyclists, no doubt well-intentioned, believe they should lecture other cyclists for not similarly investing their hopes in dubious bits of styrofoam.

    (Another version of this rant is at http://pjakma.wordpress.com/2011/10/28/the-case-against-bicycle-helmets-quick-guide/ – which has some more links to interesting studies and articles).

    #682343
    0
    Ush

    Quote:I only posted the item

    I only posted the item so people could think about it and to show how easy serious accidents can happen.

    Sorry if I seemed grumpy in response. I don’t think we need to be telling each other how dangerous cycling is … it’s not. I get enough people banging on about it and it annoys me. I think we should all assume that we’ve all made our own rational choices as adults and just not mention such an uncertain or contentious topic at all. Anyway, best wishes to you.

    #682341
    0
    mad_scot_rider

    I must admit – I do usually
    I must admit – I do usually wear a helmet, but only to keep my wife happy

    In over 5 years of ‘serious commuting’ (have fun defining that!) I have had three nasty accidents – only one of which involved my noggin in any way, when I face planted thanks to a pathway lemming and got a concussion *despite* my helmet

    Take from that what you will

    #682339
    0
    Super Domestique

    On that note Andy, on my
    On that note Andy, on my first ride on the Tarmac I saw a large flying creature heading my way but past me, then at the last second it made a bee line (pun intended) down my throat!

    It got caught and whether psychological or not, I am convinced I could feel its legs wriggling in my throat. After a stop and lots of coughing, spluttering and spitting (sorry to anyone that witnessed that btw) it was still stuck so I forced it down with jelly babies and water!

    My very own bush tucker trial!

    #682337
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    andylul

    dave_atkinson wrote:andylul

    dave_atkinson wrote:
    andylul wrote:
    Saying that, if I rode through a hornet’s nest, I’m sure my helmet would not afford me much protection from the stings :-)

    yeah, especially a road lid with big vents. I’ve swallowed up all kinds of flying insects with mine up to and including a giant bumblebee. if you’re going to ride near a hornet’s nest, probably best to stick a piss pot lid on :-)

    Road cyclists – the only animal that ‘eats’ wasps…

    #682335
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    Ghedebrav

    I’m yet to be convinced by
    I’m yet to be convinced by statistical arguments either way. Both sides seem to present flawed data, so I can’t draw a reasonable conclusion from this evidence.

    However, I do always wear a helmet, and have been (very)thankful for the protection it afforded my bonce after a particularly nasty downhill spill. The ‘perception of risk’ thing, I’m not sure I buy. Agreed, in Copenhagen/Amsterdam/etc. most people don’t wear them. But the reality of UK riding is quite different to these utopias.

    On the other hand, I’m not in favour of mandating helmets by law, because (a) I’m a cyclist, which is a shorthand way of saying I’m a grumpily independent thinker who doesn’t like being told what to do by meddling civil servants (and, by the way, I AM a civil servant…); and (b) it addresses the question of cycling safety from completely the wrong end, foisting the responsibility for brain-damage on the non-helmet wearer rather than the light-jumping, mobile-phone-using white van driver (with apologies to white van drivers). It would significantly set back the cycle-safety debate whihc has been advancing nicely over the past few years.

    Incidentally, trauma medics will only ever experience the consequences of crashes, which screams of confirmation bias. Given the key counter-argument (by which I am not convinced) that helmet-wearing increases public perception of risk and thus reduces participation, with knock-on effects on general public health isn’t something that will concern your average A&E doctor. Which is to say that while the opinion of these professionals is valuable, it’s hardly the bottom line on the debate.

    #682333
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    dave atkinson

    andylul wrote:Saying that, if

    andylul wrote:
    Saying that, if I rode through a hornet’s nest, I’m sure my helmet would not afford me much protection from the stings :-)

    yeah, especially a road lid with big vents. I’ve swallowed up all kinds of flying insects with mine up to and including a giant bumblebee. if you’re going to ride near a hornet’s nest, probably best to stick a piss pot lid on đŸ™‚

    #682331
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    Super Domestique

    It has been said that if you
    It has been said that if you think you don’t need a helmet to protect your brain then you are probably right đŸ˜‰

    #682329
    0
    ironbloke

    Another life saved. I can’t
    Another life saved. I can’t think of a single rational reason not to wear a helmet. Was knocked off once in a race and was told when I came out of surgery that without question the helmet saved my life. I always wear one.

    Here’s the rub. I have a son with a wobbly riding style and little road awareness. I make him wear a helmet. He says it’s “not cool” and that he “looks like an idiot”.

    So is it all about what ‘other people’ think about you?

    Sod other people – I’ll stay safe thanks… B-)

    #682327
    0
    Stumps

    Ush wrote:While I’m glad your
    [quote=Ush]While I’m glad your friend is alright I don’t like your post because:

    #1 If the helmet split then it wasn’t operating within the parameters for which it was designed. They’re supposed to crush, not split.

    #2 Posting this and then saying “don’t argue about it” is disingenuous.

    http://cyclehelmets.org/1081.html%5B/quote%5D

    Ush, i appreciate your points but i’m not aware of the build quality of helmets, he was wearing a “met” helmet so i cant comment.

    I only posted the item so people could think about it and to show how easy serious accidents can happen. I dont want people to argue as it gets us nowhere and as i stated everyone is entitled to their views.

    I apologise if you feel that the post is inappropriate.

    #682325
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    andylul

    Saying that, if I rode
    Saying that, if I rode through a hornet’s nest, I’m sure my helmet would not afford me much protection from the stings đŸ™‚

    #682323
    0
    andylul

    I’ve never been in an
    I’ve never been in an accident where I’ve needed my helmet, but then again I’ve never been in a car where I’ve needed my seat belt.

    I’m sure just as many will argue that they’d suffered bruising and crush injuries as a result of wearing a seat belt but there’s nothing to predict what injuries they ‘may’ have suffered had they not been strapped in.

    For me, it’s the same with helmets and the one thing I constantly think of while riding country lanes is that any bramble or branch could hit me and cause me minor injury that could cause me to crash – remember, the majority of us rely on balance and/or gyroscopic stability to maintain our forward motion.

    I’m pretty certain that if I got whipped across the forehead at 25mph by an overhanging branch it would cause me to alter my course with dramatic circumstances – I’d rather have the confidence to take the hit on my protective equipment (plus I always ride with eye wear) than try to swerve with potentially fatal consequences. The bottom of the internet is full of comments about wobbly cyclists and how unpredictable we can be, and I don’t wish to fuel that fire.

Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 28 total)
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