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Stratman.
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December 17, 2018 at 9:42 am #29203
kil0ran
Had the pleasure of driving a Merc C-Class over the weekend. I say drive but it was little more than turn the wheel every once in a while for 500 miles. So many buttons, so much automation, so much to distract you.
The only redeeming feature was that the ride was fantastic and the seats extremely comfortable.
Visibility was atrocious – privacy glass for the rear windows and windscreen, and huge A & B pillars. B pillar and roof line in particular was so badly-placed relative to the driver that it was almost impossible to see clearly when turning right from a side road. It was also possible to set the driving position so low that I could barely see above the belt-line, and I’m almost 6 foot. Made it tricky to judge gaps and passing distances relative to parked cars. I’ve also worked out why you see cars with gouges in rear doors – reversing cameras only deal with the back of the car, not the sides.
From a safety perspective I liked using the speed limiter (important, because it was so quiet you had very little idea of how fast you were wafting along) but I’d imagine it just encourages drivers to drive at the posted limit all the time, rather than considering road conditions. No other active/passive safety features on this particular car because it was a hire car.
It seems that manufacturers are effectively selling an interior/lifestyle choice rather than a driving tool these days, the car was completely uninvolving to drive, even on Sport+ mode (firmer suspension plus comedy throttle blips as you roll up to stop lines FFS)
On the plus side I now have absolutely no desire to own such a technological marvel.
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Dnnnnnn
StraelGuy wrote:kil0ran wrote:I find it very odd that a few families I know splurge £700 a month on car leases. Surely the better option is to pay off the mortgage and subscribe to the bangernomics approach? I’m probably going to spend £500 on a Xsara Picasso at the weekend – 1 owner, low miles, bit tatty but a good runner and easy to fix. Will easily last a couple of years. And I’m a higher-rate taxpayer.All about priorities I guess. Cars have always been about hierarchy, just as horses and buggies were. Personal transport has always carried status – its only when you get to 40-something that you realise its all bollocks.
(Of course, the same applies to bikes, but probably best not to go there 🙂
Totally agree. Im my last job, there was a police call Centre on the floor above us. About half the kids who worked in there were late teens / early twenties and most of ’em drove leased BMW 1-series. Here’s a thought, why not drive a banger like we all used to and save some money towards a mortgage deposit
? The world has definitely gone car crazy…I suspect it’s mostly about status anxiety and (related) peer pressure. I think younger and poorer people tend to be more prone to such pressures (and advertisers know it).
On buying bangers, there’s also the risk that your £500 bargain generates a £2000 bill at the MOT stage… Of course that could happen to any motor but it’s more galling when it’s more than the thing is worth!
It’s not just cars… how many people who can ill afford it are tied into expensive contracts for the latest iPhone, etc when they don’t need more capability than a midrange handset (which is as good as the top end of 3/4 years ago)?
But let’s not be too smug… how many of us spend four figure sums on new bikes every year or two, or several hundred quid on wheelsets (etc. etc.) plus just to potter around at modest pace on a Sunday?
StraelGuy
kil0ran wrote:I find it very odd that a few families I know splurge £700 a month on car leases. Surely the better option is to pay off the mortgage and subscribe to the bangernomics approach? I’m probably going to spend £500 on a Xsara Picasso at the weekend – 1 owner, low miles, bit tatty but a good runner and easy to fix. Will easily last a couple of years. And I’m a higher-rate taxpayer.All about priorities I guess. Cars have always been about hierarchy, just as horses and buggies were. Personal transport has always carried status – its only when you get to 40-something that you realise its all bollocks.
(Of course, the same applies to bikes, but probably best not to go there 🙂
Totally agree. Im my last job, there was a police call Centre on the floor above us. About half the kids who worked in there were late teens / early twenties and most of ’em drove leased BMW 1-series. Here’s a thought, why not drive a banger like we all used to and save some money towards a mortgage deposit
? The world has definitely gone car crazy…kil0ran
Simon E wrote:
As per the very first post, I think we are most of the way there. It’s all down to marketing – people buy a Merc not because it does anything substantially better but simply because it’s more expensive. It’s a status symbol.kil0ran wrote:why would you buy a Merc instead of a BMW if it drives the same? Of course, you’ll no longer be driving it so perhaps that question is irrelevant .I suspect that eventually, one day in the future, a whole load of people currently riding the new car treadmill will wake up and ask themselves why they pissed away a fat wodge of money every month (or every time they traded their 2 / 3 year old model in for a new one) to get what is essentially the same thing. Easy come, easy go, I guess.
I find it very odd that a few families I know splurge £700 a month on car leases. Surely the better option is to pay off the mortgage and subscribe to the bangernomics approach? I’m probably going to spend £500 on a Xsara Picasso at the weekend – 1 owner, low miles, bit tatty but a good runner and easy to fix. Will easily last a couple of years. And I’m a higher-rate taxpayer.
All about priorities I guess. Cars have always been about hierarchy, just as horses and buggies were. Personal transport has always carried status – its only when you get to 40-something that you realise its all bollocks.
(Of course, the same applies to bikes, but probably best not to go there 🙂
Simon E
As per the very first post, I think we are most of the way there. It’s all down to marketing – people buy a Merc not because it does anything substantially better but simply because it’s more expensive. It’s a status symbol.kil0ran wrote:why would you buy a Merc instead of a BMW if it drives the same? Of course, you’ll no longer be driving it so perhaps that question is irrelevant .I suspect that eventually, one day in the future, a whole load of people currently riding the new car treadmill will wake up and ask themselves why they pissed away a fat wodge of money every month (or every time they traded their 2 / 3 year old model in for a new one) to get what is essentially the same thing. Easy come, easy go, I guess.
kil0ran
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:problem is, and has been talked about many times (including by Guy Martin when he raced against an AI car) is how these vehicles are programmed. MB have already said they will sacrifice innocent victims to keep their motorvehicle occupents safe.Elsewhere and incl Guy Martin say those in the vehicle should be the ones that take the hit. There’s a discussion here https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/3pw714/why_selfdriving_cars_must_be_programmed_to_kill/
Seems to me that the only viable solution is for all cars to have the same homologated safety logic, like they have sealed ECUs in F1 & MotoGP. It’s the same as the rules of the sea and rules of the air, albeit in a more chaotic environment. If all cars know the control rules for all other cars then that should eliminate vehicle to vehicle collisions.
The challenge is that it removes a differentiator for the manufacturers – why would you buy a Merc instead of a BMW if it drives the same? Of course, you’ll no longer be driving it so perhaps that question is irrelevant .
kil0ran
matthewn5 wrote:cyclesteffer wrote:He said that they’ve found out that people are completely unprepared to take back control of the car.Exactly what happened to Air France flight 447. The pitot tubes froze up, the plane dropped out of autopilot and handed back control to the pilots, the young pilot flying panicked and stalled the plane, everyone died.
And the recent LionAir crash in Indonesia. Faulty sensor made the plane think it was stalling and so automatically forced the nose down. Pilots hadn’t been briefed/had forgotten how to recover from it (there’d been a recent procedure/software change) and fought the plane for control.
hawkinspeter
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:problem is, and has been talked about many times (including by Guy Martin when he raced against an AI car) is how these vehicles are programmed. MB have already said they will sacrifice innocent victims to keep their motorvehicle occupents safe.Elsewhere and incl Guy Martin say those in the vehicle should be the ones that take the hit. There’s a discussion here https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/3pw714/why_selfdriving_cars_must_be_programmed_to_kill/
I’m firmly in the keep straight and slow down/stop camp for autonomous vehicles. It’s the right thing to do in most cases and swerving out of the lane that you’re in can have unpredictable consequences (could also open up the manufacturer to legal action).
By the way, I saw this article about grocery delivering, unmanned, autonomous vehicles hitting the streets in Scottsdale (they go a max of 25mph):
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/technology/driverless-mini-car-deliver-groceries.html
Anonymous
problem is, and has been
problem is, and has been talked about many times (including by Guy Martin when he raced against an AI car) is how these vehicles are programmed. MB have already said they will sacrifice innocent victims to keep their motorvehicle occupents safe.
Elsewhere and incl Guy Martin say those in the vehicle should be the ones that take the hit. There’s a discussion here https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/3pw714/why_selfdriving_cars_must_be_programmed_to_kill/
srchar
matthewn5 wrote:Exactly what happened to Air France flight 447. The pitot tubes froze up, the plane dropped out of autopilot and handed back control to the pilots, the young pilot flying panicked and stalled the plane, everyone died.…and that was with two reasonably highly-trained professionals (I say reasonably because they weren’t trained in recovering from abnormal attitude, sadly). In their defence, one of them was making a control input that would have recovered the plane, while the other did the opposite, which Airbus’ flight control system dealt with (and still deals with) by averaging those inputs. It’s a bit like an automated car reacting to an impending crash by handing back control to both front seat occupants, each with a steering wheel, one of whom steers left, the other right, with the car taking the average and ploughing straight ahead into the hazard.
I’m in two minds about semi-autonomous vehicles. The type of drivers who will “stick it on auto” and glue their eyes to their phone are the same types who currently glue their eyes to their phone anyway. It’s probably an improvement for the car to control itself most of the time, occasionally handing back control to an unprepared and inattentive driver, than it is for an inattentive driver to control the car full-time.
matthewn5
cyclesteffer wrote:I went to a presentation night at the University of the West of England. They’ve been involved with lots of robotics and automation. There was a guy doing a presentation on a lot of the challenges faced by driverless cars.One of the ones he said was a major problem, with driverless cars, is when the car asks the driver to take back control as it cannot cope with a situation up ahead.
He said that they’ve found out that people are completely unprepared to take back control of the car.
I guess its a bit like when you’ve been driving for hours on a motorway, and then stop to take over from your partner. It takes you a while to kind of flip your brain back into driving mode.
Yet with autonomous cars, the car might be asking you to take back control within a second, and they’ve found out people are completely unprepared for it, when the car has been driving for a couple of hours.
Exactly what happened to Air France flight 447. The pitot tubes froze up, the plane dropped out of autopilot and handed back control to the pilots, the young pilot flying panicked and stalled the plane, everyone died.
Bmblbzzz
Daveyraveygravey wrote:Mercedes have a radio ad for one of their new cars currently. There is nothing about the car at all, no benefits of this v the BMW/Audi competition or any car selling points; it literally only mentions that you can talk to it! And then there’s some throw away comment about it not being able to tell you a joke because it was engineered by Germans…Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a… Actually Lord, can you take me to the bike shop?
Burke
As cars are made to feel more
As cars are made to feel more like your living room or den, people are going to act in them the same way they act in their living room or den – by nodding off to sleep. And getting very upset when something disturbs their slumber.
OldRidgeback
Yorkshire wallet wrote:OldRidgeback wrote:Luckily, while bicycles have evolved, new ones are still pretty good to ride. The fun hasn’t been engineered out of them. My new BMX cruiser is a blast.
I want one of those 26″ PK Rippers just for posing. Gave up the BMX a couple of years back now after I got back into it at a late age. Landing on your shoulder in concrete skateparks and not being able to move your arm for days has that effect. It’s great fun being able to get air in your 40s but I was going out dressed like robocop to try and avoid injury and it still found me. People at work aren’t very understanding as well when you’re 40+ and have done yourself in on a ‘kid’s bike’.
Oh to be young again!
Well you could always try racing BMXs instead. The 50+ age category for cruisers (with 24″ wheels) is thriving (as are the 40-44 and 45-49 classes). I took part in the first 50+ BMX race in the UK a few years back. One guy racing in the UK is 72, so I reckon you’ve a bit to go yet. He goes to the US to race sometimes and me and another of the old farts are thinking of going as well next year.
I know what you mean about concrete skateparks. I messed up a turn and bruised my hip some time back. It took months for the bruising to come through.
Racing can be challenging too though. I broke my wrist when I crashed in a race a few years back and then tore all some ligaments in my left shoulder after a crash while training.
One of my colleagues is a serious roadie and in his 60s and the rest of the people think we’re both nuts.
kil0ran
RichChorlton wrote:I know it’d never happen, but now that we can make small, smooth engines, is there any practical need for a road car to have more than about 75 horsepower?I’ve got a 180hp car and I like it, and I realise that’s not even that powerful any more, but all the extra power does is help me do dangerous things really.
I wonder if we should actually ban powerful cars now. Then we could concentrate on making things more efficient and probably smaller. I can’t imagine a 75hp range rover would be much fun, but maybe that’s not such a bad thing.
The Fiat TwinAir engines were a good concept – about 75bhp, 875cc, had to really buzz them along to get the performance – just like driving a SOHC Fiesta 1.1 or similar. Good fun to drive, economical, couldn’t really get much beyond the speed limit.
Daveyraveygravey
Yorkshire wallet wrote:Put some extra lamps on and this is about as far as cars needed to evolve.
Extra lamps? It’s already got rally car driving lamps! Can you imagine a hatchback with rear wheel drive and a Lotus engine today?!?!?!
Mercedes have a radio ad for one of their new cars currently. There is nothing about the car at all, no benefits of this v the BMW/Audi competition or any car selling points; it literally only mentions that you can talk to it! And then there’s some throw away comment about it not being able to tell you a joke because it was engineered by Germans…
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