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Fuelling advice

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  • August 15, 2016 at 12:29 pm #26142
    Johnnyvee

    Hello all.

    OK, so I’ve signed up for a 50 mile bike ride and have started working towards it already. One thing I have no idea about is fuelling on longer rides and they’re seems to be masses of info which seem to confuse me. So far they longest rides I have done are 30 miles. on the first my performance just dropped off rapidly after an hour. on the second – yesterday i used an iso drink from holland and barret and had to head straight to the bathroom as soon as i got home..
    At least I kept up a good pace but the stomach cramps etc at not worth it.

    As a newbie roadie what would people advise I try… I know I need carbs and electrolytes – do I need to take them both as drinks and are some kinder to stomachs? Would an electrolyte drink and flap jack give the same end result?

    Apologies as I’m sure this has been asked many times. perhaps I over did it and didn’t drink it over a long enough period or didn’t take enough water between gulps – I tried about 150ml every 20 mins.

    Thanks for any help.

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  • August 24, 2016 at 3:30 pm #876719
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    Mr. Sheep

    Simon E wrote:

    Simon E wrote:
    I’m sure that training/experience will make your body more efficient but I’m not convinced that a beginner really needs to consume as much during a ride as is being suggested in this thread.

    I certainly needed it, my ability to cycle used to drop off the side of a cliff after 1-1.5hrs of decent pace without consuming the above amounts (and it wasn’t just fitness, either, because I could happily cycle 3-4 hours at that time with the right foods). I haven’t experimented with reducing it down as far as I can since then (I’d really rather not remind myself what it’s like to bonk through not having enough), so I don’t know the minimum I could get by on now. But I certainly needed it when I started doing longer rides.

    And that was before I learned anything about nutrition or special sports foods or the like, I worked out what worked for me through experimenting then read up on it all much later (while traininig for “Paddle London 86” 2014). Luckily, jelly babies and malt loaf are basically the perfect foods 🙂 I rarely have gels or anything “technical”, so if it’s the sports food industry that has convinced me I need this, they aren’t really getting much business 🙂 It could be a plot by Bassetts and Soreen, mind, they are certainly beneficiaries… as is the National Trust cake empire (mmm flapjacks)!

    I always keep an eye on total calories in vs out to make sure the out is always substantially more than the in, so to my mind, if I’m eating more than the minimum needed to complete the event, as long as I end up negative overall and I don’t have any gastric, erm, issues it doesn’t really matter.

    Also it’s worth noting the calorie requirements for a 75kg person riding (say) a 8kg bike and a 95kg person riding a (say) 14kg bike are very different (I’ve been both of those 🙂 ). It also varies enormously with speed, hills, headwinds, etc.

    August 23, 2016 at 11:14 pm #876717
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    wycombewheeler

    on a ride of up to 60km I

    on a ride of up to 60km I wouldn;t need to eat, provided I ate a bowl of porridge before heading out.

    On longer rides I start the ride with SIS go in both bidons, to maintain enrgy levels, and then replace with plain water once empty.

    I am also partial to sports mix, far more calories in a £1 bag then any of the marketed nutrional products, but some people don’t get on with those.

    August 23, 2016 at 10:05 pm #876715
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    Simon E
    thelighterthief wrote:
    When I started riding I’d need 4 bidons of water, a cheese and pickle sandwich, a couple of cereal bars some sweets and a couple of good sit downs before I hit 50 miles.
    I’m sure that training/experience will make your body more efficient but I’m not convinced that a beginner really needs to consume as much during a ride as is being suggested in this thread.

    Have we simply been seduced by the sports nutrition industry hype? I have to wonder whether it’s the same as the very lucrative dieting industry with their fad diets and “lose weight fast” claims that so many believe.

    August 23, 2016 at 8:20 pm #876713
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    thelighterthief

    When I started riding I’d

    When I started riding I’d need 4 bidons of water, a cheese and pickle sandwich, a couple of cereal bars some sweets and a couple of good sit downs before I hit 50 miles. 

    Now I’d have 1-2 bidons of electrolyte drink and a quick snack or 2 so long as I’d had some brekkie. 

    Ride London saw me eat 1/2 a frittata and some smoked cheese mini sandwiches, with 3 bidons of electrolyte drink and 1 of water… And some crisps. 

    it depends how well trained you are, how you feel on the day and how hot it is. 

    August 23, 2016 at 7:50 pm #876711
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    Mr. Sheep

    Simon E wrote:

    Simon E wrote:
    Unless it’s really hot then 750ml / hour is OTT. And you don’t need electrolytes either.

    I agree about 750ml/hr being an awful lot (I did a 7hr+ 90 mile ride with 3, maybe 3.5 750ml bottles at the weekend and it was pretty hot for most of the ride, can’t see needing a whole lot more than that). I don’t agree about the electrolytes though, I find it makes a real difference to cramping and also makes the water taste nicer 🙂 A tube of high5 zero ain’t expensive.

    Simon E wrote:
    Also the sports nutrition companies’ recommended carbs-per-hour figures may be appropriate for a really high intensity scenario (time trial/road race) but are totally unnecessary for recreational riding. People who overfuel, scoffing everything in their path and/or stuffing themselves with gobbling gels aren’t really doing themselves any favours.

    The old idea of carb loading with masses of pasta or scoffing a huge breakfast is outdated and possibly even counterproductive unless you’re doing significant distances on consecutive days (or trying to put on weight).

    Yeah, carb loading is unneccessary outside of marathon running in my experience. Eat reasonably sensibly for the few days before, and have a decent breakfast 🙂

    Simon E wrote:
    I would reduce the size of your breakfast; don’t bother gels or carb/electrolyte drinks and take no more than 2 bottles of plain water (or weak squash if you must), a banana and a flapjack. Don’t touch any food for the first hour and a half at least. You won’t bonk and you won’t be dehydrated

    I think that’s over-simplistic. When I started out, that would have been nowhere near enough for me to ride 50 miles. It’d probably be OK if you were very fit, but I use the adage from the Hanson’s Marathon Method book – if your stomach can handle the carbs, there is no reason not to consume them.

    That said, I agree that you don’t want to over-eat – at lower intensities you’re probably fueling yourself from stored fat as much as carbs, so the need to replenish is much less as stored fat is essentially infinite for most people.

    But what constitutes “lower intensities” also varies with fitness, so for me, three years ago I would probably have been burning 70-80% carbs and my HR would have been sat in zone 3-4 for much of a decent pace 50mi ride. Now I could do that same ride at, probably, a faster pace, my HR would be in zone 2 to 3 occasionally, hitting zone 4 up steep hills only, which probably means I’m burning closer to 50/50 fat/carbs, making the time-to-bonking much, much longer and reducing the amount I need to eat.

    It’s complex and different things work for different people.

    August 23, 2016 at 6:29 pm #876709
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    StraelGuy

    Flapsjacks (I’ve just sussed

    Flapsjacks (I’ve just sussed them and my work mates can’t get enough):

     

    200g butter

    200g brown or muscovado sugar

    400g oats

    3 tablespoons of golden syrup

     

    Melt the butter and sugar in a pan until they look fairly well mixed. Add the syrup and let it mix in then add the oats and stir together until well mixed. Spread onto a basic Asda baking tray and bake at 170c for 20 minutes. Cut into small slabs before completely cooled.

     

    This recipe equates to approx. 4000 calories so it gives 18 small slices of 220 calories each.

    August 23, 2016 at 5:57 pm #876707
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    Simon E

    Unless it’s really hot then

    Unless it’s really hot then 750ml / hour is OTT. And you don’t need electrolytes either.

    Also the sports nutrition companies’ recommended carbs-per-hour figures may be appropriate for a really high intensity scenario (time trial/road race) but are totally unnecessary for recreational riding. People who overfuel, scoffing everything in their path and/or stuffing themselves with gobbling gels aren’t really doing themselves any favours.

    The old idea of carb loading with masses of pasta or scoffing a huge breakfast is outdated and possibly even counterproductive unless you’re doing significant distances on consecutive days (or trying to put on weight).

    I would reduce the size of your breakfast; don’t bother gels or carb/electrolyte drinks and take no more than 2 bottles of plain water (or weak squash if you must), a banana and a flapjack. Don’t touch any food for the first hour and a half at least. You won’t bonk and you won’t be dehydrated.

    August 23, 2016 at 5:40 pm #876705
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    Johnnyvee

    Thanks all for some great

    Thanks all for some great advice – seriously appreciated!

    The general opinion seems to be little and often and real food target than processed stuff.  I have been increasing the mileage and finding out what works for me.  Best is a larger than normal breakfast a water bottle,  electrolyte drink and a couple of mini screen banana malt loaves.  Managed 40 miles last weekend on this though was very hot and tired when i got home but chuffed.  

    I will be trying some home made flap jacks too this weekend.  Just got to make them. 

    Currently weigh just over 100kgs and with the riding the weight is coming off and like many say it’s getting used to the mileage and going for it.  Once I’m used to a higher mileage I’m sure it won’t be such an issue. 

     

    It’s great to have a forum where people are so open and helpful.   

     

    Cheer 

     

    Jv.

    August 17, 2016 at 7:26 pm #876703
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    kenyond

    I carry a few gels incase of

    I carry a few gels incase of emergancy (love the torq raspberry ripple flavour) I always take 2 bidons one with squash and one with a tab in.

    Last week I done just shy of 90km, several hours before I had porridge for breakfast during the ride I had a few haribos at the half way point I had a greggs cheese and onion pastie and a chocolate bar when I got back.

    August 17, 2016 at 4:45 pm #876701
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    dafyddp

    To some extent it’s less

    To some extent it’s less about distance and more about how conditioned your body is and how comfortable you are with the distance. Some years ago, a long ride was 30 miles, then it became 50, 80, 100…  and so on.

    My formula is something like:
    Cheese omelette for breakfast and a pint of coffee.

    A bit of cake every 40 miles. Plus some energy bars/fuit bars.

    0.75 litres fruit squash  with a pinch of salt for every 50 miles or so

    A sandwich/pasty and a mug of tea for lunch

    On longer rides (100+ miles) there’s no harm sneaking in a pint or some fish’n’chips. I suspect that I don’t take cycling as seriously as I should.

     

    August 17, 2016 at 12:35 pm #876699
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    Anonymous

    So, just for one more opinion

    So, just for one more opinion (you know the saying: they’re like a#seholes, everyone’s got one); a rolling 50 miles at ~3hr pace is roughly my sort of pace.  Normally I ride on my own and don’t carry a lock so I don’t plan on stopping anywhere other than to look at a view.  

     

    I’ll usually have toast with peanut butter before leaving home and take two bottles, one with two High5 Zero (berry) tabs, one with normal high-juice squash.  I’ll also have two High5 gels, a mini malt loaf and a handful of honey roast nuts – maybe 30-50g – in a clingfilm wrap.  The tabs take care of electrolytes (but no energy at all), the squash tastes nicer, and I’ll have a gel after an hour, then the nuts, then the malt loaf, then the last gel at half hour intervals.  I’ve bonked badly at 40 miles a couple of times so it’s very probably overkill but better that than bonk again 😀

     

    The first time I used the tablets they caused an unscheduled and unfortunate gastric event, but I think that was just ‘surprise’ – Every now and again I’ll make a bottle of the High5 and drink it at home, I think that helps as it now doesn’t happen so my stomach must be used to them.  Although an ORS one I dropped in at a refill during RideLondon gave me really bad wind.  😀

    August 17, 2016 at 11:51 am #876697
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    Tjuice

    Think it’s all covered above

    Think it’s all covered above really, but to reinforce some of those points…  It’s personal to you and will also depend on how you ride, so the only way you’ll work it out is to experiment.  But also to build up to the longer rides so that your body understands what is going on.

    Important thing is not to leave it too late to start taking on fuel – if you only start refuelling when you start flagging, it is too late and everything will be a bit tough from there.

    A few things that work for me:

    * Eat large bowl of porridge for breakfast before ride.  Keeps stomach fairly full (I hate the feeling of being starving when I ride) and plenty of slow release energy

    * Water bottle filled with energy drink (mixed fairly weak by preference from a powder)

    * High 5 plus energy gels.  These are the only gels I personally get on with – they are nice and small, so I can ingest them quickly when going flat out, and I like the flavour of the berry ones.  [Aside, I once ran out before a race, couldn’t buy more in time and bought something else for the race – got horrible stomach cramps and found the sachets/format harder to deal with when going flat out!]

    * Soft brown bread sandwich with jam – one slice folded in half is easy to handle on the road and easy to ingest in small mouthfuls

    * Home made energy bars: oats, peanut butter, honey, ground flax seeds, chopped dried apricots if I have any, a few other seeds if I have them in the larder (warm all ingredients together in a pan, pour into a small rectangular dish (e.g., similar to a fudge tray), leave overnight in fridge, chop up into bars and wrap in foil/greaseproof paper for easy handling on the road

    I will sip the energy drink as I go along (little and often), then consume my first gel/energy bar/jam sandwich at 20miles (1 hour), and then consume something every 7-10 miles (20-30 minutes) after that.  If I feel particularly tired, or flagging earlier than I expect, I might consume a bar and a gel in much quicker succession.

    I have also tried brioche rolls with jam, but find these very hard to swallow and the jam leaks out and makes my hands sticky.  So suggest you avoid these!

    Have fun and let us know if you find any new and interesting ideas 🙂

    August 17, 2016 at 11:38 am #876695
    0
    Dnnnnnn

    Lots of good advice here,

    Lots of good advice here, especially “little and often”. Soreen works well for me but other kinds of ‘real’ food too. if you’re unsure, drink a bit more than you feel the need for (again little and often). The body has an efficient way of dealing with any excess!

    A good meal a couple of hours beforehand will give you a solid foundation. Porridge and bananas can’t be beat – but avoid overly sugary or fatty meals before a ride (which is just good eating advice anyway).

    August 17, 2016 at 9:56 am #876693
    0
    tritecommentbot
    Kapelmuur wrote:
    unconstituted wrote:
    Kapelmuur wrote:
    I heard an interview with Steve Cummings in which he said he only ever had water in his bidon and only ate ‘real food’.

    It works for him.

    Lot of nonsense. Reckon you’d be surprised what they’ve got in their bidons 

    What would really surprise me would be people backing these insinuations with a shred of evidence.

    And to answer the OP, I regularly ride 50 miles in about 3.5 hours on a litre of water and just a cereal bar or flapjack at half way.

    Gels are horrible and not necessary for that speed/distance, for me anyway.

     

     

     

    Wild insinuations indeed. Crushed painkillers and carb sources in bidons. Who would believe such baseless accusations! Unheard of! 

     

    I jest. Pros always tell you 100% honestly what they’re up to. Take everything at face value.

    August 17, 2016 at 9:51 am #876691
    0
    Kapelmuur
    unconstituted wrote:
    Kapelmuur wrote:
    I heard an interview with Steve Cummings in which he said he only ever had water in his bidon and only ate ‘real food’.

    It works for him.

    Lot of nonsense. Reckon you’d be surprised what they’ve got in their bidons 

    What would really surprise me would be people backing these insinuations with a shred of evidence.

    And to answer the OP, I regularly ride 50 miles in about 3.5 hours on a litre of water and just a cereal bar or flapjack at half way.

    Gels are horrible and not necessary for that speed/distance, for me anyway.

     

     

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