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Compressionless Brake Housing on Mechanical Discs HY-RD

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  • March 13, 2016 at 12:54 pm #25480
    MadHatter

    Recently upgraded to the TRP HY-RD cable to hydraulic disc brakes on my road bike after suffering a year with BB5/7.

    I’m aware the rear brake will naturally have more lever pull required to lock the brake but it’s quite severe coming all the way to the drop. One mechanic told me that compressionless housing is simply the same with a different label on (???) and another said the improvement would be very minimal.

    Does anyone here have any experience of this, from what I’ve read online e.g. http://www.cxmagazine.com/mechanical-monday-upgrade-compressionless-brake-housing this is particularly useful for mechanical discs, I don’t know enough to guess why but wonder if people here have noticed a great improvement, especially if you have HY-RD brakes.

     

    Secondly my front brake is making a noise as though the disc isn’t completely true. The mechanic who fitted them (same as the same housing different label) didn’t call or anything to tell me the parts were untrue just went ahead and fitted them. The noise is a periodic pulsating noise on applying the front brake for lack of a better description. With the BB brakes the single piston nature tended to flex the rotor as a matter of fact. Am I correct in thinking th edual piston self adjusting nature of the HY-RD brake will mean that the warp in front rotor won’t be worsened. Limited funds for the morethanforseeable make me likely to just leave this if this is the case. The brakes perform a hundred times better than Avid’s BB.

     

    There is some periodic pad rub on the rotors on wheeling the bike back and forth, the fitter advised me that this would sort itself out over time.

     

    Thanks in advance for any input anyone more knowledgeable than me might have on this.

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  • March 16, 2016 at 12:23 am #868233
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    bluemoonday

    I’ve had the HY-RD’s on a GT
    I’ve had the HY-RD’s on a GT Grade for just over a year now. It’s my second disc bike and like the first, I spent a bit of time head scratching, while figuring them out. Maybe I’m slow, but they take up most of my maintenance time along with the drive train.
    I had the slack rear brake lever on my GT and after much fussing, realised it was simply cable tension. Now even I can fix that!

    March 15, 2016 at 6:47 am #868231
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    antigee

    as some suggested above I

    as some suggested above I suspect the HY-RD rotor design – have two sets of wheels one with HY-RD rotors and one with I think Ashima rotors – def get some annoying pulsing noise  on the front with the HY-RD rotor – had BB7’s before with Avid rotors and no problems with that type of noise (plenty of wailing in the wet and plenty of wailing from me about the regular adjustment needed)

    maybe try and borrow a wheel off some one with a different rotor and see if disappears 

    i switched to compressionless outers and found some improvement but feel and brakes seem to be quite a personal thing 

     

    March 14, 2016 at 11:55 pm #868229
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    MadHatter

    BBB wrote:

    BBB wrote:
    I don’t know who set up your BB7s but if you “suffered” with them, you should change the mechanic… Correctly adjusted and with sensibly routed cables they are smooth and powerful. Just saying.
    Compressionless casing makes a difference of few milimeters in a lever throw. IMO worth getting. Jagwire Ricpords are probably the best without spending a fortune.

    I got the impression they needles adjustment after every 50 miles or so which just made them impractical for my commute at least.

    If that sounds incongruous let me know buy I had them set up by multiple mechanics who mostly had differing opinions on why they were not performing well from rotor shape to single piston design to cable stretch to contaminant from riding the roads to drop bars being a no go with discs to incorrect bedding in.
    Found they’re probably all correct in my opinion just not w fit and forget component?

    March 14, 2016 at 11:49 pm #868227
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    BBB

    I don’t know who set up your
    I don’t know who set up your BB7s but if you “suffered” with them, you should change the mechanic… Correctly adjusted and with sensibly routed cables they are smooth and powerful. Just saying.
    Compressionless casing makes a difference of few milimeters in a lever throw. IMO worth getting. Jagwire Ricpords are probably the best without spending a fortune.

    March 14, 2016 at 9:10 pm #868225
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    MadHatter

    Local mechanic took a moment

    Local mechanic took a moment to look over my brakes today and commented there was not enough cable tension in the rear at least, he altered something quite quickly on the rear and they seem to have more bite now. May be they have less modulation but less lever pull is required.

    His advice re. compressionless brake housing was that the gains are very minimal, except for the Jagwire housing composed of multiple metal links – which does look bad ass for the record..

    March 14, 2016 at 9:05 pm #868223
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    LankyEdinburgh
    gonedownhill wrote:
    Got to say I was a little bit underwhelmed by these brakes given their excellent reviews, 

    Me too. They seem to need a lot more maintenance than calipers. Wet and gritty conditions are particularly bad for them and I have to regularly take them off and clean the pistons thoroughly. Not ideal for commuting.

    March 14, 2016 at 1:43 pm #868221
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    gonedownhill
    MadHatter wrote:
    Cheers for your response. I had terrible judder witht he BB but concluded this was due to the bending of the rotor by  a single piston caliper. As our esteemed colleague comments above he thinks it is the shape of the edge of the rotor the waviness going in and out of the pads, I’ve heard and read this before. I do have a carbon fork though I will say I don’t really get front brake judder with my HY-RDs though only a sort os high pitched singing or a low pitched raspberry blowing noise which I would maybe think was contaminant of some sort, though I cleaned the rotors really well..

     

    Hoping continuing to bed them in will help with power.

    Gonedownhill – do you have to pull your rear brake lever almost right to the drop bar to get the full effect of the brake?

     

     

    They have quite a lot of throw in the levers compared to a rim brake but there is still at least 1cm between the lever and the bars when the brake it fully engaged. From what I read at the time of installing the best way to get get a shorter reach is to get the TRP bleed kit and top the reservoir up with mineral oil which I think TRP endorse. Otherwise I saw a guy on a forum do a hack and flip the cable clamp on the brake caliper around to get a bit more leverage, but that requirs you to file a little groove into the body of the caliper which isn’t ideal for the warranty!

    From what I understand of disc brakes a bit of screeching comes with the territory. Personally my rear brake is faultless and it’s my front that has the judder which I have just learned to live with now.  

    Got to say I was a little bit underwhelmed by these brakes given their excellent reviews, although having never used disc brakes before I may have been expecting too much and as I built the bike myself it is possible I didn’t do everything completely correctly.

     

    Thread here on topping up the brakes (see Andy K posts) and the cable clamp hack

    http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/overcharging-trp-hy-rd-brake-system-894815.html

    March 14, 2016 at 12:50 pm #868219
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    MadHatter

    I thought as much Dave thanks

    I thought as much Dave thanks, it’s well explained at this link for anyone looking for information http://www.cxmagazine.com/mechanical-monday-upgrade-compressionless-brake-housing

     

    Just didn’t know if the advantages were being extolled by those seeking only marginal gains with money to throw away or whether it’s really an essential for a full length housing to a mechanical/hydraulic rear disc brake.

    March 14, 2016 at 12:42 pm #868217
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    dave atkinson

    one note: compressionless

    one note: compressionless brake housing is not the same thing with a different label on. it generally uses the same construction as gear cable outer (multiple wire strands in a helix) rather than the single-strand spiral of a normal brake outer. as such, it is much more resistant to compression.

    March 14, 2016 at 12:26 pm #868215
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    MadHatter

    Cheers for your response. I

    Cheers for your response. I had terrible judder witht he BB but concluded this was due to the bending of the rotor by  a single piston caliper. As our esteemed colleague comments above he thinks it is the shape of the edge of the rotor the waviness going in and out of the pads, I’ve heard and read this before. I do have a carbon fork though I will say I don’t really get front brake judder with my HY-RDs though only a sort os high pitched singing or a low pitched raspberry blowing noise which I would maybe think was contaminant of some sort, though I cleaned the rotors really well..

     

    Hoping continuing to bed them in will help with power.

    Gonedownhill – do you have to pull your rear brake lever almost right to the drop bar to get the full effect of the brake?

     

    March 14, 2016 at 12:20 pm #868213
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    gonedownhill

    I also have the HyRds. I can

    I also have the HyRds. I can’t comment from experience on compressionless vs non-compressionless but when I asked a mechanic about whether I needed compressionless ones he said they aren’t necessary and that I should just use the Shimano outers that came with my 105 groupset – don’t seem to have any problems with power. 

    I too get a bit of pulsing/judder with my front brake, did wonder if the disc design could be causing it but decided they wouldn’t design them like that if it caused a problem. Perhaps I was correct to wonder, might be worth trying replacing that rotor as they aren’t very expensive and I guess I can eventually use the old rotor to replace my rear where I have no judder. I guess the judder is to do with flex in carbon forks?

    March 13, 2016 at 3:10 pm #868211
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    MadHatter

    Wow, thanks very much for

    Wow, thanks very much for your detailed response. Your understanding of this is obviously much greater than mine, I am completely new to hydraulic systems.

    On inspection I am able to screw in the lock knob, so I assume this means my brakes are at least not dangerous, and the caliper will self adjust for pad wear.

    I have heard this about the wavy rotor design causing judder, interesting point, thank you.

    I am far from confident in working on these brakes myself, so the issue I am having now is in trying to enquire with mechanics in my new area I recently moved to, how familiar they are with this brake. Many will just say they know to get your money I’m sure. I mean I just paid to have them set up by someone who claims to know it all, how to do it. From what I’ve told you you are thinking they are not right..

    I paid so many different shops to adjust and re-setup my BB brakes and was told several different things as to why they were sub-par. That was when I was in employment and I don’t really have the resources as a student to chase the golden egg now as it were.. Do you fancy a cycle up my way to set them up?!!

    I think it would go down like a lead balloon if I directed a mechanic to your forum post as well as advised them I wanted to source my own parts off of the internet and only pay for labour..!

    Seriously though, did you ever ride your HY-RD brakes with Ultegra levers without the kevlar housing and notice a great amount of difference in lever pull required on the rear? I understand different STI sets have differing pull ratios or something, mine is Tiagra 4600.

    March 13, 2016 at 2:12 pm #868209
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    KiwiMike

    Step 1: Make sure your brake

    Step 1: Make sure your brake mounts are correctly faced. If they are out, you will *never* have correct caliper alignment and therefore braking. You will also eat through pads much quicker than is normal.

    2. Make sure the system is correctly bled, the pistons are pushed all the way back, pads inserted correctly etc. – https://www.trpbrakes.com/userfiles/file/HYRD_Final.pdf

    3. Make sure the rotor is perfectly true – it sounds like they may not be. Invest in a rotor truing tool if you don’t have one. 

    4. Make sure the caliper is centered over the rotor (note 3 & 4 are a bit chicken & egg, you may have to get the caliper so-so, then true the rotor, then re-centre the caliper)

     

    When setting up the cable housing/cable, make sure you read this:

    https://www.trpbrakes.com/userfiles/file/TRP%20HYRD%20Technical%20Bulletin%20English%20Rev%20B.pdf

     

    NOTE: The stock TRP rotors are a ‘wavy’ design where 50% of the rotor material effectively disappears from the pad contact area six times per revolution. My experience was that at low speeds this caused horrific brake judder on the front, as effectively the brakes were half releasing and re-grabbing the rotor 6 tmes per revolution. Replacing with some standard full-profile rotors fixed this immediately. Wavy rotors apparently clear mud, but having raced MTB for 20 years on non-wavy rotors I call BS on this.

     

    Re compressionless housing: My Jagwire KEB-SL (Kevlar ‘compressionless’) HyRd setup doesn’t leave me wanting for power – Even with 28mm Tubeless (i.e. super-grippy) I can run out of friction betwixt tyre and road long before brake power becomes an issue. On my Ultegra levers, for the rear, lever throw isn’t an issue.

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