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Matt eaton.
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August 4, 2014 at 11:01 pm #22071
Leviathan
[Yes, this is another Ride London 100 thread] So the weather for this weekend is looking 50/50, which raises the prospect of doing a sportive event in the rain. Recently there has been a couple of threads of interest, one about a gent who hadn’t done enough training for the RL100, and another about fear of descending. I’ve clocked up many miles this year and even some hills and at least years event topped out at 73kph coming down off Leith Hill, a speed I have never got anywhere close on an open road (anything over 50 is a bit worrying).
Believe me it rains in Manchester, like anywhere else, but commuting to work it totally flat. If I am out on a training run I don’t tend to set off in the wet and if it starts coming down I don’t need to push it downhill.
The answer is obviously not to take any risks (it’s not a race right? I don’t want to be in hospital with a broken leg, I have a train the catch.) The problem is if I am going up hill slowly and then downhill slowly too I have no chance of bettering last years time. I need the fast downhills to average my pace out. But if it is sketchy I am going to be on the brakes all the way down. I don’t want to be hit from behind by someone with a bike that makes swooshy noises as it goes by. How to maintain a reasonable pace in the wet or just recalibrate my expectations?
yours Sincerely, Thor Hushovd.
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oozaveared
S13SFC wrote:oozaveared
S13SFC wrote:oozaveared wrote:If you want to race a bike why not man/woman up and join a club and do it properly.Because around here there is no closed road racing. None. Zero. Zip. Nowt.
Some racing on some MoD land 6 times through the early summer but limited places, 50% of which are reserved for the local RC, 25% are invitation only and the rest spread between everyone else including vets and jnrs.
Despite belonging to a club I’ve yet to manage to get a spot and to join the local RC you must A) attend at least 5 club rides B) be sponsored by a member C) be seconded by a member D) voted in by the committee.
There’s a very good reason why the club wants to see you ride extensively before they let you race alongside them. They have nice bikes too and want to keep them intact. That’s why races are regulated and graded so that equal abilities compete and novices get a chance to learn the ropes before getting in at the deep end.
That’s also why sportives are not races and shouldn’t be treated as races because they are too mixed. Some people entered a charity ride on a shopping bike only to find that someone else thinks the number they are wearing means it’s a full on race and that she’s fair game for a close pass.
So yes if you want to race with people that want to race properly join a club. Clubs have rules. I doubt any club will stop someone joining that wants to and will find proposers and seconders within minutes and the committee will nod you through. Clubs like members they pay subs. Before you get involved in the cut and thrust of racing though they’ll be interested to see how disciplined and competent a rider you are on a few club runs.
Looks to me like a bunch of lame excuses from someone that likes to race to people that aren’t actually racing but is shy when it comes to the real thing.
BTW most sportives are not on closed roads so TTs are a way to get time for a set distance on a set course. A proper standardised named numbered and measured course same conditions for everyone on the day. Of course there’s no excuses and all the others are racing too. What’s not to like for you?
S13SFC
oozaveared wrote: If you want
oozaveared wrote:If you want to race a bike why not man/woman up and join a club and do it properly.Because around here there is no closed road racing. None. Zero. Zip. Nowt.
Some racing on some MoD land 6 times through the early summer but limited places, 50% of which are reserved for the local RC, 25% are invitation only and the rest spread between everyone else including vets and jnrs.
Despite belonging to a club I’ve yet to manage to get a spot and to join the local RC you must A) attend at least 5 club rides B) be sponsored by a member C) be seconded by a member D) voted in by the committee.
Daveyraveygravey
Daveyraveygravey wrote:bikeboy76 wrote:Thank you Matt Eaton for saying what I have always though. Sportives ARE races, they are a mass time trial event open to the public, there are always going to be people trying to go as fast as possible including me. This is what is so attractive about closed road events. I am sick of hearing this ‘its not a race’ rubbish. True you don’t need to be a Dick (channeling Adam Hills) but people will be going fast.I am 37 years old, I weight 90kg and my hip bone is two inches lower than other guys my height; I have spent a large part of my life playing tennis and white water kayaking; I will NEVER be as fast or naturally talented at cycling as I want to be, or you might be. This Cat 4, ‘find yourself a race’ bollocks is bollocks.* Not everyone can take part in even the lowest level of competitive cycling.
Sportives are there to cater to exactly the type of knobs/people you are complaining about. There are tens of thousands of keen amateur cyclists looking for an occasional challenge who can only do a couple of events a year because they are real people with jobs and families and lives to live. I have not enough time to cycle as I want because I have to live the rest of my life and I don’t have the time or money or equipment or fitness or time or money to pretend that I am some semi-pro. So I do these things a couple of times a year and moan on the internet about how I want to be better and will overshoes help or not because I know I have very little talent but try my best.My definition of going my fastest 5 hours for Sunday could well be slower than someone capable cruising around in 4; if Lee Dixon cut me up I might be fuming whilst he wonders what I am complaining about because he is not exerting himself. The only grounds for complaint you have is with the organisers for not being more rigourous in their start waves; but how can they be with 20,000+ to start, most or which wouldn’t mind a slot as early as possible.
In summary SPORTIVES ARE RACES. If you have paid to enter a timed event from point A to point B and you don’t think you are in a race, you have made a mistake. If you want to blow hard Glynr36 please post your Cat4 results.
*Swearing; if its good enough for Stephen Fry, its good enough for you. – Me.
Well said! I hate the elitist attitude among many racers (and club riders) that you aren’t a real cyclist if you don’t compete in the evening TT down the bypass or zoom along the lanes in your peleton all in the same jersey every Sunday.
I pushed myself on RideLondon, really pleased with the time I got. Was I racing? Not sure, I wasn’t racing any particular person, but I wasn’t bimbling along either and was very conscious of my time/progress. I’d love to spend £5k on a bike and spend all week riding it, but I don’t have the time or the money.Well I don’t think it’s elitist to say that a sporting event under a codified set of rules which matches riders of similar ability in a race is not the same a mass charity ride my friend. If you think these are the same sort of thing then that is delusional. Not bimbling along and completing the course is admirable. I am huge supporter of Ride London. But it’s not a race. The race was in the afternnoon. It was a different thing entirely and I really enjoyed that as well.
Matt eaton wrote:oozaveared
Matt eaton wrote:oozaveared wrote:glynr36 wrote:The problem with sportives is a huge majority treat them like a race, and therefore ride like dicks, as thats what they think is needed.
The fact that I saw on twitter RL allegedly had a podium sums it all up, and many cynical tweets with a ‘finish line’ shot of a sprint titled, ‘number one sportive-ist’ too.
The sooner people treat a sportive for what it is, which is a bike ride with a few thousand other people where someone else has planned your ride, signed it all for you, and provided feeds so you don’t need to worry about anything but riding the route the better.And to be absolutely fair whilst the organisers state that they are not a race (for legal reasons) They don’t stop people racing. They encourage it.
Very different to a club run.
Ride London aside I am in two minds about sportives. It’s great that people want to be out on their bikes and people do like the sportive format. On the other hand its a “for profit” cycle event the proponderence of which in Surrey has got the council speaking of regulating all such events including the trad club run. It would probably be better if people joined their local cycling club and the money used to organise rides that way and then at least the money would stay in the sport not get siphoned off by carpetbaggers that may or may not be involved in the sport but are involved in making a profit.
Let’s not beat around the bush, sportives are races. There are people at every sportive who want to get the best time and ‘win’ the sportive. In the origonal Gran Fondo format prizes were even given. Sportive organisers carefully avoid race status, but folks are definately racing. Just like marathon running a lot of people do it as a personal challenge and don’t really consider themselves as racers, but its still a race.
As far as the merits of sportives go, my view has softened a little. Having someone mark out a nice route and provide food and drink at suitable intervals along the way is probably worth £20.
I think that any local authority trying to regulate club runs is going to get into difficulty so I wouldn’t worry too much about that. After all its just a bunch of friends that have decided to go for a bike ride together; perhaps a regular occurance but not an organised ‘event’. Unless they outlaw cycling altogether I don’t see how they can stop people going for bike rides.
Well yes that’s the problem. They are not legally allowed to be a race. So there is a bit of legal shennanigans with the way that results are published. ie not in time order and no winner is declared. But in every other respect they are treated like races by both the organiser and by participants. But they have none of the regulations that an actual race would have to have in place. Even the local TT on the A31 tonight has a restriction on numbers and start times along with a raft of regulations from RTTC and has to have permission from the police who impose their own caveats based on their risk assessments.
But Sportives by declaring legally that they are not a race do not require such regulation. By not having much if any marshalling but having a virtual race they are now in danger of being regulated but not by the sport itself but by proposals from people who are anti-cycling.
If you want to race a bike why not man/woman up and join a club and do it properly.
workhard
Time to drop the pretence.
Time to drop the pretence. Closed-road sportives are races. End of.Joeinpoole wrote:oozaveared
Joeinpoole wrote:oozaveared wrote:
Ride London aside I am in two minds about sportives. It’s great that people want to be out on their bikes and people do like the sportive format. On the other hand its a “for profit” cycle event the proponderence of which in Surrey has got the council speaking of regulating all such events including the trad club run. It would probably be better if people joined their local cycling club and the money used to organise rides that way and then at least the money would stay in the sport not get siphoned off by carpetbaggers that may or may not be involved in the sport but are involved in making a profit.What’s wrong with people making a profit from cycling? My LBS makes a profit … at least I hope it does because I want it to be there next year and the year after that. Bike component manufacturers make a profit too, as do the makers of all those dodgy “sports specific nutrition”, etc, etc. Profits enable R&D and make tomorrow’s products even better and usually cheaper too.
Sportives are an ‘event’ and the organising of events is a notoriously risky venture. A lot of work needs to be done (and money put up front) well before they see a return. If the paying public makes the event a success then the organisers are entitled to make a profit. I’m not interested in sportives myself but I applaud the organisers of them who have certainly contributed to making cycling more popular in the UK.
I didn’t say there was anything wrong in making a profit. I certainly do and that’s how the world of business goes round. No my friend, profit is good. But “for profit” organisations are in for the profit, not for the sport of cycling and are not regulated by the sport. They may even bring unwarranted consequences for the sport. So what I did say was that I had reservations that they were an unalloyed good in their current form. A large increase in their number and in very specific places and their lack of coordination has had the effect in some places of placing the normal cycling activities of clubs in some jeopardy. When two large sportives (London Cycle Sportive went the opposite direction to the Capital to Coast event) both arrived at one piece of road near Box Hill totally unbeknownst to each other that causes a problem for other road users and that leads to calls for regulation and that in turn has meant that there are in Surrey calls for your run of the mill club runs and any cycling group to get permission for a specific route at a scheduled time. That’s not been necessary before.
Whether sportives are responsible for the increased popularity of cycling or are a taking advantage of it is rather moot. I don’t mind people making a profit at all. But if their private profit is based on over using the more popular roads and areas and in an uncoordinated fashion and spoiling the situation for cycling clubs then I don’t think it’s necessarily a cause for celebration. I’d prefer British cycling to regulate it frankly and get sportives to spread more widely not just on the currently fashionable roads. I’d also like provide a route from sportives into club riding. And I’d like to see the money spent by cyclists on events stay mainly within the sport for the most part.
That’s a bit more nuanced than simply assuming I had an animus to profit. (which I don’t btw)
realdeal
Allow me to put it into
Allow me to put it into simpler terms for you.Your comment reads like this.. You’re not a dick for trying in a safe manner to achieve your best possible time, but you are a dick for trying to win a non competitive event.
So what I’m saying to you is, what happens if your best time wins the event? Are you a dick or not?
“Not everyone is competing against the clock”
Well they kind of are Andy, everyone in that event was timed, whether they care about it or not, they were still timed. They were all competing against the clock but of course the level of competitiveness will vary.
“Even if they are, it’s not a race”
I didn’t say it was. I know it isn’t a race.
However people treat these things is cool with me, if you want to take it slow.. fine, if you want to try and be the quickest… no problem. I’m not into marginalising or name calling.
Simon E
Eurosport blogger Blazin’
Eurosport blogger Blazin’ Saddles (AKA Felix Lowe) has an account of Sunday’s event.The rain gets a mention đŸ˜‰
andyp
‘Your comment is
‘Your comment is contradictory at best, somemones’ best possible time has to “win” the event…? ‘It’s really not contradictory. Yours is just bizarre.
‘What you don’t seem to understand is that everyone in this event is competing against the clock and, ergo, there will be a leaderboard of sorts.
It’s up to the individual how much he wants to put into it to determine his time and place on that leaderboard, thankfully your ranting won’t make a blind bit of difference to anything. ‘
Not sure if either of those lines is directed towards me. If they are: a) not everyone is competing against the clock. Even if they were, it’s not a race. It’s very simple. b) I’m not ranting, and I don’t expect to make a blind bit of difference to anyone who really can’t understand simple things. Some people just can’t accept fact.
Simon E
bikeboy76 wrote:Sportives ARE
bikeboy76 wrote:Sportives ARE races, they are a mass time trial event open to the public, there are always going to be people trying to go as fast as possible including me. This is what is so attractive about closed road events. I am sick of hearing this ‘its not a race’ rubbish.Sorry chap, but it really isn’t a race and it most definitely isn’t a time trial. Some participants may TREAT it like a race, and that’s fine (safety issues notwithstanding). There are so many external variables that your time, while representative of how long it took you to get from A to B (or back to A) cannot be treated the same way as if you entered a race.
Yes, it can be a challenge and it’s up to each individual to decide what taking part means to them. If Joe Slow and his wife/mate/colleague want to pootle round on a tandem or town bikes, stopping to admire the view in places, have a snack and chat on a pub bench they are still taking part in the same event as the couple who got married, the chap on a Boris Bike and the keen ones with expensive race bikes & deep section wheels who tag onto a fast group doing through-and-off and go Strava segment-hunting on the climbs.
Before you take offence, consider that I am not denigrating either the event or the way you wish to approach it. Sportives, charity rides, audax events, road races and time trials all have a place on the cycling spectrum. None is better than the others. The fact that people of hugely varying abilities can ride the same event at the same time is one of the great things about it. It is quite incredible that 20,000 people rode round on a filthy morning.
Your comment is contradictory
Your comment is contradictory at best, somemones’ best possible time has to “win” the event…?There does seem to be a lot of vitriolic statements coming from certain quarters, but it’s just not necessary. Sportive rides have a mixed bag of abilities, this one even more so because of the roads being closed and the popularity of the event.
What you don’t seem to understand is that everyone in this event is competing against the clock and, ergo, there will be a leaderboard of sorts.It’s up to the individual how much he wants to put into it to determine his time and place on that leaderboard, thankfully your ranting won’t make a blind bit of difference to anything.
‘Are you considered a dick if
‘Are you considered a dick if you try to get your best possible time?’Absolutely not. More power to you, as long as you don’t put others at risk in doing so.
If you try to ‘win’ a non-competitive event, however…
Anonymous
I was certainly racing. I
I was certainly racing. I was racing myself.I won. đŸ˜€
mudshark
Are you considered a dick if
Are you considered a dick if you try to get your best possible time? Assuming not riding too selfishly that is. I do think it’s pointless trying to ride faster than people you don’t know but I suppose it’s fun for many to try and get a faster time than your mates – though you wouldn’t know how well you’re doing against them until the end unless you start together in which case you’ll probably ride to help each other then perhaps have a bit of a sprint at the end.andyp wrote:’There are people
andyp wrote:’There are people at every sportive who want to get the best time and ‘win’ the sportive. ‘yes, they’re known as ‘dicks’.
I’m not sure that I’d go quite that far. Riders who take silly risks and ride over-aggresivly are dicks but you’ll find people like that at races too. It’s a case of taking things more seriously than the level of competition merits.
There are good things about sportives but there are a couple of negatives. They seem to have replaced organised charity rides, where the challenge is just to complete the course rather than put in a good time. This has led to non-competitive riders being given little option than to join the sportive scene. They also seem to have taken the place of certain grass-roots racing, especially for those coming to the sport as grown-ups. Maybe there should be a cat. 5 to cater for such riders. Equally, if all of the sportive riders who claim to be too slow for a cat. 4 race actually entered they’d find that they had a good number of other riders to compete with of similar ability. The presence of the sportive scene means that British Cycling don’t have to worry about catering for such riders. On the other hand we could say that wannabe racers should just get on with it and ride their local TT or find a form of racing that’s more inclusive, like CX or even an MTB disipline.
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