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until a week ago i knew nothing about bike tech and now i find myself asking 'mtb qr skewer / stunt pegs compatability?' many / most of the posts in the  road.cc forum are tech related in an obscure way which everyday folk wd find impossible to understand.  and yet many of these people will ride bikes. so is there a bike hierarchy in which geek cyclists exist separately from the majority of regular cyclists and how does that manifest itself for each group? the separation of groups, as well as being based on levels of involvement and knowledge, wd also seem to be based on income. biking can be an expensive, socially exclusive business. £1300 wheel set anyone? while i'm on the road for £45.

 

in a related way you cd also surmise that there is a kind of class war going on between many drivers and bikers. some drivers seem to be just plain hostile to cyclists even when theyre not on the road like a kind of 2 wheel racism. young to middle aged chavs wd seem to be the main culprits. it doesnt seem to me to be just about drivers thinking cyclists badly affect traffic it's also about their perceptioons of people who cycle and of themselves. if theyre a white van man a cabbie a truck driver or a twenty something chav who loves his motor they will be aggressive petrol heads who dislike cyclists for their perceived wimpy middleclass green agenda. it's class war.

36 comments

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redrobot [24 posts] 4 months ago
0 likes

a related question - what percent of biking kit is a markup for elitist consumerism? i mean if you pay £100 for a jacket that cost £5 to make is £50 of the profit made on the exclusivity factor? make a few and sell them expensive rather than pile em high and sell em cheap. it seems to me that cycling is a leisure interest significantly aimed at the affluent who like paying for expensive things other people cant have.

 

let's do a quick survey - how much have you spent on cycling kit in the last 3 years?

 

 

 

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hawkinspeter [4096 posts] 4 months ago
4 likes

.

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redrobot [24 posts] 4 months ago
0 likes

i'm not a communist in any historical sense. stalinism was bad, post stalinism was bad, pre stalinism was bad. i can still point out the evils of consumerism. affluent commuter belt types tearing round the countryside on £3k bikes at the weekend doesnt seem right somehow. the athleticism / eco statement etc is fine. the economics, not.

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Dingaling [110 posts] 4 months ago
3 likes

Bike kit in the broadest sense? Bikes, tools, accessories, clothes - I've just done a quick check - €18450.

 

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ktache [2136 posts] 4 months ago
2 likes

I'm hoping your LBS had a proportion of that?

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Dingaling [110 posts] 4 months ago
1 like

Not really because the LBS's main business is ebikes. I had to go much further afield for the Colnago C60. The latest addition, Genesis gravel/tourer was closer to home but the BS owner made such a cockup on the build I wish I had done it all myself. But, in fact, most of the money (75%) did go to two bike shops. Beyond that I do all my shopping on-line and do my own maintenance.

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Mungecrundle [1568 posts] 4 months ago
3 likes

I average out spending around £1000 a year on cycling. Cycles, maintenance, parts, clothing, club membership. Every 10 years or so I buy a really good bicycle. My current bestie stands me at over £6.5k, but I look after them meticulously and each of my bicycles are as good or better as the day they rolled out of the bike shop.

For my £1000 a year I get transport to work, exercise and on Sundays I get to dress like I know what I'm doing, lycra and all. As for technical, well I do understand how to strip and maintain most of the parts that come on my bikes, but my main concern is that they are shiny and in good working order. I couldn't explain the difference between a BB30 bottom bracket and a BB8 astrodroid but I appreciate that there are "geeks" out there who have an encyclopedic knowledge of bicycle stuff and that they are generous enough to share that wisdom for free on internet forums, always happy to help out with any technical question.

Don't get hung up on the cost of clothing. Sticker price isn't what most people pay. I have some nice Castelli stuff, but when it is last year's unfashionable end of line discounted stock and Tesco's are offering 3 for 1 clubcard points for EvansCycles it would be rude not to. For the most part expensive kit is at least partly expensive because it is good unlike a lot of fashion clothing.

Pleased to hear that you are on the road for £45. Many cyclists started out on the cheap. My first proper bike was £5 from the local tip. Now I can afford better and I'm not jealous of those who can afford to spend more. One of the things you will learn is that no matter what you think someone might be like because of what they drive, ride or how they dress, how rich or poor they are, for the most part they will be decent people and as a cyclist you are probably more likely to have someone stop and offer help if you need it. Cycling is one of the most inclusive activities available, it is most certainly not the preserve of the "middle class" even though I am most distressingly the stereotypical one of those at this stage of my life.

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Zigster [33 posts] 4 months ago
8 likes
redrobot wrote:

i'm not a communist in any historical sense. stalinism was bad, post stalinism was bad, pre stalinism was bad. i can still point out the evils of consumerism. affluent commuter belt types tearing round the countryside on £3k bikes at the weekend doesnt seem right somehow. the athleticism / eco statement etc is fine. the economics, not.

Why pick on cycling? People spend 10x that on cars without blinking. So why does a £3k bike get your goat but a £30k car not?

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Griff500 [443 posts] 4 months ago
10 likes
redrobot wrote:

i'm not a communist in any historical sense. stalinism was bad, post stalinism was bad, pre stalinism was bad. i can still point out the evils of consumerism. affluent commuter belt types tearing round the countryside on £3k bikes at the weekend doesnt seem right somehow. the athleticism / eco statement etc is fine. the economics, not.

Who the he££ do you think you are judging people by how they spend their hard earned cash? My £3k bike does 5000 miles per year and will still be going at 10 years old.  During that time the average golfer will spend £10k on membership fees alone.  

And don't give us the crap about equality - your average teenager from a working class background these days is equipped with a £600 iphone, plus contract, and subject to replacement every couple of years, not to mention £80 a pop trainers - because that is the choice their family make. 

I choose not to spend £120 per month on Sky TV subscription, I choose not to buy the latest ultra HD ZLED TV, I no longer go to music concerts at £60 plus per ticket, I choose not to take beach holidays, I choose not to burn money smoking, and I am writing this on a 10 year old laptop that cost me £300.  What gives you the right to question my spending choices?

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fukawitribe [2896 posts] 4 months ago
2 likes

Just ignore it.

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hirsute [1123 posts] 4 months ago
4 likes

And the cost of renting a car for 2 or 3 years is ?

"Over £30 billion in new credit was issued by auto finance dealers in 2016 alone"

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BehindTheBikesheds [3322 posts] 4 months ago
4 likes

"tearing around" eh, unlike the millions of £20,000 plus motors that tear around the  country killing and maiming.

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Xenophon2 [112 posts] 4 months ago
5 likes

Ballpark figure I spend about 3.5-4 k Euro/year on cycling (bike, gear, clothing, maintenance...) and recover something like 1.6k from that (employer pays 0.23 EUR/km for the commute).  But -not that any justification is required, the cash is mine to spend and I pay the equivalent of a nice Mercedes in taxes every year- I don't own a car.

My neighbour rides a 12k Euro bike but only during the weekends provided the weather is just right (neither too hot nor cold, not too much wind, no rain or -god forbid- snow or sleet).  He spends more time researching the latest Meilenstein wheelset than riding his bike.  I say more power to him and I hope he enjoys his rides, just like I hope that the 22 year old fitness maniac living down the road who can whip my arse on his 400 Euro clunker enjoys his.  

 

 

 

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Municipal Waste [264 posts] 4 months ago
7 likes

I spend my entire salary on cycling, including not eating and living in a tree.

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hawkinspeter [4096 posts] 4 months ago
9 likes
Municipal Waste wrote:

I spend my entire salary on cycling, including not eating and living in a tree.

You'd be surprised how much free food you can find on the ground around trees. The only problem is how to keep a stockpile of it safe to see you through the winter.

 

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CygnusX1 [1197 posts] 4 months ago
3 likes

One thing redrobot missed on his other forum post/rant about the content on road.cc was the amount of bloody squirrels! Little feckers.

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OldRidgeback [3227 posts] 4 months ago
1 like

I've had cheap bikes in the past. We still have a couple in the family fleet. I'm not sure how much I spend on cycling/year, but what with BC membership, club membership and race fees on top of maintenance (plus a new race bike for my son), it'll all add up. 

You can buy a decent bike secondhand for not much money. It doesn't have to cost the earth. 

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Boatsie [474 posts] 3 months ago
1 like
redrobot wrote:

let's do a quick survey - how much have you spent on cycling kit in the last 3 years?

 

 

 

My car gets 100km on 5 litres of fuel. 6.7 litres with kayak on roof.
Cycling kit during last 3 years..
2 broken bikes. New brakes, loads of tyres, spare cassettes, spare chain wheel combo, new pedals, 3 second hand bikes.. Derailer, hub gear, fixie. An axle bearing. Illumination equipment  1 , wall hangers..
Overall.. A lot less than the fuel cost to have driven where was ridden.
All up.. Not that much.. Maybe $1500 yet spares (including tyres and lubes) should see me without expenditure a year or 3 now that setup has started.
Big hits were bikes.. $200, $120, $600. Upgrading $200 cost about $400.
Tyres? $80 per four wide ones, $30*2 wide front and a couple of rounds of 28s at $50 a set.
Lube $10?*4. Most not used.. Ditto with tyres.

It's way cheaper and it's usually fun compared to driving.
Motorists are usually nice.
Drunks got me 1 night.. 0300 hours. On shallow down grade having opened her up down a 3km 7% grade. I was standing on pedals, stretching, dude slapped my arse but I was laughing; friggin idiots past quickly hence to fast per his reaction.. He also hit the handlebar.. I was ok, wobble and stabilize yet I wonder if he hurt his hand..
(Pretty impressed that my buttocks was slapped)

Edit: gear racks, mud flaps, lots of spare tubes that don't get used. Panniers. +$200
Gift of panniers (unused new ones that I'll probably pack 1 day)
Way less cost than fuel.. Service cost of automobile down too.
One of my better choices

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Pilot Pete [231 posts] 3 months ago
7 likes

Regarding redrobot’s first paragraph, yes there are bike geeks and those who understand little about the machine they ride other than it’s a pretty colour. So what? It’s only a heriechy if you choose to view it that way - I’ve got a big bunch of mates who all ride, some like me knock out 100 mile rides regularly as it is my passion. Others don’t do that in a week. So what? We all get on great and the stronger riders in the group never put themselves on any kind of pedestal and happily muck in helping the less technical/ less geeky ones with mechanical knowledge, advice and help. For example I recently leant my bike box to a mate who was going on a cycling trip, have shown another how to use ridewithgps as he was struggling to get routes on his new Garmin and indexed the gears on another mates bike as he had made a hash of it himself. So there is a heriechy in terms of ability, knowledge, kit, tools and a whole host of other things, but it doesn’t get in the way of us just being mates.

Similarly, there is an economic heriechy, just as there is in all aspects of life. Unless someone tries to be elitist and is disparaging of those who spend less, then once again, what is the problem? I own some very nice, expensive bikes and spend lots of money on kit, but I wouldn’t dream of taking the piss out of anyone else’s bike or kit choice based on how much it costs. One of my mates rides a tatty Allez on which he commutes and rides for leisure with. Some of his cycling jerseys are getting mis-shapen at the hem they are so old! So what? He’s as strong as an ox and can leave me up the hills. We just ride and enjoy ourselves.

So it sounds to me like jealousy from someone who covets more expensive bikes and kit - I’ve honestly never come across a cyclist who has been elitist based on how much his bike/ kit cost because cycling is a great leveller - the guy with the most expensive kit can easily be left in the wake of someone who is stronger, no matter how cheap their kit is. 

As others have said, life is not equal. Some live on minimum wage, some earn a fortune. There are many reasons for both. How an individual spends their disposable income is up to them. Many own (rent) flash cars, must have the latest mobile phone, the biggest surround sound home cinema setup, jet skis, second properties, gadget after gadget. Others just spend it on bikes and cycling. 

 

That brings us onto the second paragraph. I agree there is definitely hostility towards cyclists, based on a number of factors, but a class war? Not sure I completely agree with that. Sure there are the odd drivers who really think you ride a bike because you can’t afford a car, which is laughable, but the majority who demonstrate hostility seem to do it out of some ill perceived belief that they have more rights on the road because they are in the majority of car drivers. They feel they should be able to drive at whatever speed they choose to and should not have to slow down due to the hazard ahead that is the slower moving cyclist. They therefore believe that cyclists ‘hold them up’ and feel they should get out of the way because of this ill perceived belief of greater entitlement.

This manifests itself with the usual ‘road tax’ argument, followed closely by the ‘insurance’ and then ‘registration’ arguments and if you engage for long enough the anecdotal cyclist law breaker stories that they ‘once experienced’ but refer to as ‘all cyclists’.

Only last week I attended a British Legion and veteran’s dinner hosted by a local restauranteur on behalf of my outgoing Mayor wife. We are both ex military and I was sat next to a now retired WO2 in the infantry, something else we both had in common. The talk got around to the recent local elections and how he had voted for my wife, then onto what she was planning to do over the next term. She is now Cycling and Walking Champion for our county council and is pushing active travel and healthy lifestyles, looking to put more cycling infrastructure (of decent quality) in all our towns to encourage the uptake of cycling and to allow kids to ride to school etc. Then said WO2 made a throw away comment about cyclists not using the paths that were already there. I didn’t hold back and just slapped him down as he came out with cliche after cliche regarding cyclists and his obvious hatred. We covered ‘road tax’, passing too close (he said a metre was fine, so I asked if he would overtake another car at 50mph with only a metre between them). We discovered he had no idea about the Highway Code and the rules regarding cycling two abreast and I pointed out why and when riders would ride as such and when they would single out. He couldn’t argue against any of it. Give him his due, he gave me and my wife a lift into town, we had a few beers and he dropped us home!

So, the point is, it’s not a class war, it’s a deep rooted, incorrect belief regarding perceived entitlement to use the roads. Too many drivers (and I honestly think it is a majority) hold the belief that they have more rights than cyclists and too many of them believe that cyclists shouldn’t be anywhere other than in the gutter and should get out of their way. Too many (although a minority) think they can take the law into their own hands and do their own judge/ jury and executioner routine by punishment passing, brake checking and whatever else they deem suitable to correct the perceived ill that has been done to them. This is not confined to any particular group of road users - boy racers, van drivers, bus drivers, even the old and retired drivers are at it. Even amongst our group of friends many (although not particularly hostile with it) hold these beliefs and casually show their lack of knowledge regarding the law relating to cyclists. Most don’t mention it in front of me any more though!

PP

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FluffyKittenofT... [2739 posts] 3 months ago
1 like
Griff500 wrote:

And don't give us the crap about equality - your average teenager from a working class background these days is equipped with a £600 iphone, plus contract, and subject to replacement every couple of years, not to mention £80 a pop trainers - because that is the choice their family make. 

 

 

Sheesh, quite a few DM-cliches there.  Care to back up those claims with evidence and data?  "Your average teenager from a working class background"?  You sure about that?

 

Redrobot has a point (though given his previous posts I doubt it's in good faith - or am I confusing him with another poster?).  Personally I don't care one iota about people having expensive bikes - there are far more damaging things someone with a bit of cash might choose to spend it on -  but there clearly is a bit of class-resentment involved in attitudes to cycling.

 

It's all a bit 'star-bellied sneetch', first cyclists were hated for being 'poor', then for being 'rich', and sometimes both at once.

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ktache [2136 posts] 3 months ago
3 likes

Pilot Pete, another fine, long and very well made comment.  I thank you.

I wonder if RedRobot will ever read it.

 

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peted76 [1585 posts] 3 months ago
2 likes
Boatsie wrote:

My car gets 100km on 5 litres of fuel. 6.7 litres with kayak on roof. Cycling kit during last 3 years.. 2 broken bikes. New brakes, loads of tyres, spare cassettes, spare chain wheel combo, new pedals, 3 second hand bikes.. Derailer, hub gear, fixie. An axle bearing. Illumination equipment  1 , wall hangers.. Overall.. A lot less than the fuel cost to have driven where was ridden. All up.. Not that much.. Maybe $1500 yet spares (including tyres and lubes) should see me without expenditure a year or 3 now that setup has started. Big hits were bikes.. $200, $120, $600. Upgrading $200 cost about $400. Tyres? $80 per four wide ones, $30*2 wide front and a couple of rounds of 28s at $50 a set. Lube $10?*4. Most not used.. Ditto with tyres. It's way cheaper and it's usually fun compared to driving. Motorists are usually nice. Drunks got me 1 night.. 0300 hours. On shallow down grade having opened her up down a 3km 7% grade. I was standing on pedals, stretching, dude slapped my arse but I was laughing; friggin idiots past quickly hence to fast per his reaction.. He also hit the handlebar.. I was ok, wobble and stabilize yet I wonder if he hurt his hand.. (Pretty impressed that my buttocks was slapped) Edit: gear racks, mud flaps, lots of spare tubes that don't get used. Panniers. +$200 Gift of panniers (unused new ones that I'll probably pack 1 day) Way less cost than fuel.. Service cost of automobile down too. One of my better choices

 

...and just like that, Boatsie is back.

Welcome back!

 

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alansmurphy [2287 posts] 3 months ago
1 like

There's so many points raised here, a few of note to me are bike geeks:

 

I consider the level of knowledge isn't so much about the tech but the mechanic, a bike geek to me is the one that can change a set of forks, looks at crank length, has built a bike from scratch etc. Tech can be informative, fun, give a slight advantage and often people on a journey (wanting to TT) will obsess over tech, it doesn't mean they're the most knowledgable.

 

£3k bikes:

 

Ok so there are the 'all the gear no idea' bunch, or people paying thrice as much for a carbon fibre bottle cage to save the odd gram when they're 4 stone overweight. But... maybe just maybe they are enjoying themselves, it's got them out of a sports car or golf club. They may have just liked the look of the bike and can afford it - leave them to it.

 

Chav boy racers:

 

I don't mind these too much, they'll grow out of it. It's what the majority of drivers grow into which bothers me most. They see traffic holding them up rather than being a part of the traffic, they see us as an inconvenience, they feel they have rights greater than others, they are protected in their bubbles, they don't realise that they're even doing anything wrong. Any age, culture, race, income, gender... there's millions of inconsiderate motorists, I don't need to check their demographic profile! 

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alotronic [638 posts] 3 months ago
3 likes

I find this very comforting:

 I own some very nice, expensive bikes and spend lots of money on kit, but I wouldn’t dream of taking the piss out of anyone else’s bike or kit choice based on how much it costs. One of my mates rides a tatty Allez on which he commutes and rides for leisure with. Some of his cycling jerseys are getting mis-shapen at the hem they are so old! So what? He’s as strong as an ox and can leave me up the hills. We just ride and enjoy ourselves.

Cycling continually pushes you to adjust your thinking; Kids on cheap bikes can rip the legs off a MAMIL like myself on  my realtively (2k) expensive bike. I know, I used to be that kid. I rode shit bikes for decades while I was  student and then a strugling artist. I can now afford and economically justify a couple of decent bikes (justifcation is £8 a day on tube x 200 times a year). In many ways I am underbiked and my Audax exploits would justify a much more expensive (ti) bike but I am committed to wearing out the bikes I have for the time being.

I have struggled in the past with bike wankers but have calmed down a bit in the last few years - really if someone wants to buy a dream Colnago that's their business - cycling has a way of evening that all out when the road points up or gets long anway. Age and training are way more important to performance than the bike you ride.

It's easy to find a reason not to like people but everyone on a bike has a lot more in common than they have differences, I look to the communalities.

My judgement of riders these days has nothing to do with the bike and clothes, it's simply whether they wave or not. Simples.

 

As for PP's last para on motorists - perfect, 100% agreement.

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hawkinspeter [4096 posts] 3 months ago
2 likes

What puzzles me is the connection between expensive bikes and athletic prowess. Some cyclists take the view that you should "earn" the right to have an expensive/lightweight/aero bike by racing or by having some arbitary level of performance. You don't tend to get this with expensive cars (i.e. you don't expect a Porsche driver to be an ex-racer) so why with bikes?

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jollygoodvelo [1879 posts] 3 months ago
1 like
hawkinspeter wrote:

What puzzles me is the connection between expensive bikes and athletic prowess. Some cyclists take the view that you should "earn" the right to have an expensive/lightweight/aero bike by racing or by having some arbitary level of performance. You don't tend to get this with expensive cars (i.e. you don't expect a Porsche driver to be an ex-racer) so why with bikes?

You do get this with a few cars right at the extremes of the spectrum: most famously the Bugatti Veyron and Chiron have been designed to be no more "difficult" to drive than a Golf even at high speed, whereas the Noble M600, Ferrari FXX, Lamborghini Sesto Elemento, and some other thinly-disguised racing cars require a little more driving skill to extract the best from them.  But that's at the very highest end and I agree, there's generally less assumption.

Perhaps it's because the machinery that pro cyclists use genuinely *is* the bike that you can buy for £10k or less, so there's an implication (albeit undeserved) that the owner thinks they're a pro, whereas even a £200k track-focused supercar is not at all the same as a Le Mans GT endurance racer.

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Griff500 [443 posts] 3 months ago
3 likes
hawkinspeter wrote:

What puzzles me is the connection between expensive bikes and athletic prowess. Some cyclists take the view that you should "earn" the right to have an expensive/lightweight/aero bike by racing or by having some arbitary level of performance. 

I think some of this is triggered by envy from those who are perhaps leaner, younger and fitter, but also poorer. 

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dooderooni [48 posts] 3 months ago
3 likes

At the end of the day, it's not what you're riding, it's the fact that you're out riding it.

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Simon E [3847 posts] 3 months ago
1 like
Zigster wrote:

Why pick on cycling? People spend 10x that on cars without blinking. So why does a £3k bike get your goat but a £30k car not?

I think redrobot is confusing disposable income with snobbery. They are not the same thing.

Quite a few people I know ride £3k bikes. They also drive nice cars. But they are nice people, clubmates or friends. They enjoy riding their bikes, they volunteer for their cycling club, their money helps keep the doors of my LBS open, who sells and mends all types of bikes - superbikes, e-bikes, 3-speed town bikes or a child's first bike.

Cycling is as complicated or as simple as you want it to be. If you don't like the cost and complexity then get a singlespeed, fit flat pedals and buy your lycra from Decathlon or or baggy shorts from an outdoor shop. The 'hierarchy' only exists if you want to be part of it and choose to compare yourself with specific people. No-one is forcing you to do anything.

redrobot wrote:

if theyre a white van man a cabbie a truck driver or a twenty something chav who loves his motor they will be aggressive petrol heads who dislike cyclists for their perceived wimpy middleclass green agenda.

This is because cyclists (and people who care about the environment) have been painted as out-groups by the media, just like other social groups. It happens everywhere, reinforcing stereotypes and finding scapegoats.

Yeah sometimes it's not fair out on the road but It's not even remotely comparable with being a refugee from a war zone or a dark-skinned muslim in a white provincial town. I recommend that you grow a thicker skin. By all means acknowledge the negatives - nothing gets fixed if you don't shout - but turn it around: focus on the positives, do positive things, look for the good in situations. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

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Boatsie [474 posts] 3 months ago
0 likes

You guys rock..
My old man taught me to know what I'm using which is why I rebuilt my bike.
Today I bought a $100 25 year old bike because it's quality. The frame just shy of my preferred length yet I can't stop laughing. It's way lighter than the lightish bike I tried to build yet ii don't care.. Wide tyres staying on my build. I know 28s rarely puncture especially during summer on smooth roads and I know I'm faster on wider tyres through the back tracks such as gravel and bumpy river paths..

Bugatti Veyron.. I preferred the Ferrari.. I was tripped out. I met a musician in Odessa, Ukraine. He asked me why I hung around him everyday because I was a tourist. I told him straight up, ' far off can't, ' sniffed a couple of loud snorts, ' you reak of education and besides, my idea of a holiday is to sit here and do nothing. '
He's a nuclear engineer! I was amazed. I made many friends. Humble people. Wealthy with art. With a tertiary education, high wages were near $100 USD a month yet parked on the street below the window of my apartment was a Bugatti Veyron, Italian paint scheme Ferrari and lots of Porsches.
Like mentioned, regardless of wage, enjoyment was the basic education; enjoying life.
Cycling is a warm body, a cold face and nervous system that makes many smile.
1986. Chernobyl nuclear disaster; bigger than the Hiroshima bomb, a nuclear cloud covered much of Europe including more than 1 humble little village in Wales. The city near the power station is a place I'd like to be. Moose, deer, wolves, bears, dogs, cats, insects, birds, definition of pale rings enveloping darker wood telling a tale of time.
Granddad RSM WO1 D. James past away soon after cloud with cancer dominating throat.

1922? Noble prize was awarded to a skillful doctor whom I think wrote pedanticly wrong yet jist is there.
Cancer doesn't survive in non acidic blood and does like oxygenated blood.
I don't argue because he's true in layman's terms but I think Cancer a god.
Hence god being a good. Therefore helpful yet not detected using our technologies nor any of the future and loving the good of life such as cycling demands from a body. Oxygen from breath and water.
Cabbage and vinegar were ancient medicines to feel good rather than punished.

Honestly, as rare as the readers educated ability to translate.
Binned plastics go to landfill and/or ocean dumps. Recycled plastics are the best options I have to hope a less irritated man of lands I pass through.
Smiling. I go to a church of foreign language because it's easier to see the music in the words.. Not sure what father says.. I just smile, stretch the wrists and look forward to practice of dance.

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