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I can't help it if a cyclist falls over, says Helen Measures

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vonhelmet | 5 years ago
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There’s a difference between punishment, rehabilitation, protection for society and vengeance. Measures should be rehabilitated, and in the event that she can’t be, society should be protected from her at best negligent driving. It’s a failure of justice that she isn’t rehabilitated and society isn’t protected from her.

Trashing her google results doesn’t rehabilitate her and doesn’t protect society from her poor driving. It’s vengeance. It’s predicated on the idea that if we feel we can get one over on her then things will be better, but they won’t be. No one will be any safer, and it won’t make her driving any better.

How many people who think they’re oh so clever for posting allusions to her being a murderer have, say, written to anyone who had a hand in her getting off? The CPS? The judge? Their MP? Thought not.

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FluffyKittenofT... replied to vonhelmet | 5 years ago
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vonhelmet wrote:

There’s a difference between punishment, rehabilitation, protection for society and vengeance. Measures should be rehabilitated, and in the event that she can’t be, society should be protected from her at best negligent driving. It’s a failure of justice that she isn’t rehabilitated and society isn’t protected from her.

Trashing her google results doesn’t rehabilitate her and doesn’t protect society from her poor driving. It’s vengeance. It’s predicated on the idea that if we feel we can get one over on her then things will be better, but they won’t be. No one will be any safer, and it won’t make her driving any better.

How many people who think they’re oh so clever for posting allusions to her being a murderer have, say, written to anyone who had a hand in her getting off? The CPS? The judge? Their MP? Thought not.

 

You can't 'rehabilitate' if you just let people off entirely.

 

You are correct that it's a failure of justice - that's the point, surely?  The justice system didn't deliver justice, and it's an ongoing problem.  I don't see why you want to sweep that under the carpet and have specific instances of that repeated failure forgotten.

 

As far as 'rehabilitation' vs imprisonment,  I don't have a strong opinion about it either way.  The big problem is that we don't really know how to rehabilitate people.  Imprisonment does at least have the benefit of incapacitation, of keeping the dangerous away from the vulnerable for a time.

 

And the real issue is that we are much more prone to use imprisonment for some kinds of offender over others.  Killer drivers are treated particularly leniently compared to other criminals, and that sends a message.  If you want less punishment generally, killer drivers are not the place to start, they are already greatly favoured by the system.  Put your reform efforts to use for those more deserving - there are plenty of them.

 

(Still annoyed that that prison reform trust lot complained about driving bans being imposed after release from prison - they called that 'double punishment' ... they really do seem to go out of their way to alienate people).

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vonhelmet | 5 years ago
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It’s not constructive. It’s vengeance. Nothing will be better for it. Her life being worse doesn’t mean anyone else’s is better,

So what’s the point?

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FluffyKittenofT... replied to vonhelmet | 5 years ago
2 likes

vonhelmet wrote:

It’s not constructive. It’s vengeance. Nothing will be better for it. Her life being worse doesn’t mean anyone else’s is better,

So what’s the point?

 

I can't understand your position at all.  Are you saying you are against anyone ever being punished  for anything, then?  No courts, no prisons, not even community service?

 

Besides I don't think it's as calculating as you make out.  People have emotions, they have reactions due to being human.  If one followed your logic nobody would ever participate in any protest about anything, ever express an opinion on anything, and, certainly, nobody would ever vote (voting is not really rational for the individual, it's a ritualistic act that is irrational for any given person - at least if they don't live in a marginal constituency, and probably even then - but which, collectively, has society-wide benefits, it's an interesting paradox in fact).

 

What's the point of your comments on this thread?

 

Do you have some particular sympathy for Measures, or have you just got into a position of arguing for the sake of it?

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hawkinspeter | 5 years ago
6 likes

The letter in the Henley Standard from the parents of the victim killed by Helen Measures :

http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/emergency-services/86576/heartfelt-...

Quote:

"A YOUNG girl cyclist died”. How simply said for someone who did not know Denisa Perinova, but what does it mean for people who knew her and mainly what does it mean for her closest ones, for us her parents, her young brother, grandparents, boyfriend and his family, other friends. We should not forget about her, the biggest victim of this tragic event.

We are talking about Denisa, a 21-year-old girl who had all her adult life ahead.

Denisa started her life, her adult life, abroad. We supervised her development from a distance, coming several times to see her in England and Denisa travelled to see us at home.

We were together quite often and we had seen her settled and very happy in England. Denisa became independent and we realised that our task as parents was over.

On July 15, 2012 the darkness came into our lives. We got a message that Denisa had had a very serious accident while cycling with Ben Pontin, her boyfriend. We immediately came to the UK, spending all our time in the hospital waiting for a miracle. Unfortunately, the miracle did not come.

On July 22 in the morning we were told that Denisa, our beautiful daughter, was passing away. Denisa died that evening. We were with her that last day, talking to her, kissing her, seeing her dying, and it was devastating.

Our plans in the not too distant future had been her wedding and to become grandparents, to see in Denisa’s eyes plenty of joy and happiness, bringing her children up with the same care as she was brought up. However:

* Instead of preparing a wedding, we had to arrange her funeral.

* Instead of going to her wedding, we had to repatriate her body back to her home country.

* Instead of choosing a dress for Denisa’s wedding, we had to choose the dress to put on her body in the coffin.

* Instead of having a wedding party, we had a funeral party.

* Instead of having grandchildren, we just have some photos, memories and mainly emptiness in our souls.

Our plans and reality are like days and nights, like brightness and eclipse. Our family was happy until July 15, 2012. Our lives have not been the same since that fateful day.

The question is what did actually happen on the road that day?

First of all, our daughter was an experienced and competent cyclist, having cycled since a very early age in the Czech Republic around our local towns and villages.

In the UK she passed her driving test which, we understand, contains a written examination with regards to the law of the UK relating to road usage and road safety. She also owned a car and drove every day to work and to other destinations nearby, including Luton airport to collect her mother. She was used to driving on the left-hand side of the road.

But let us go back to the Middle Assendon/Stonor road.

The facts are straightforward as given in evidence by the car driver herself. Dr Helen Measures was driving a Mini along the Middle Assendon to Stonor road. She said she usually drove on that road at a speed of between 45mph and 50mph, although she was unsure of her exact speed at that time.

She had overtaken other cyclists and knew the road to be one used frequently by cyclists, particularly on a sunny Sunday morning.

As she was approaching a bend in the road, she saw two cyclists riding in the same direction as her.

She said that she looked ahead and did not see anything approaching. She gave evidence to the judge that if she had seen any cyclist approaching she would not have commenced an overtaking manoeuvre. She further stated that she could not see 100 per cent of the road ahead when she commenced overtaking.

Having slowed to around 30mph, she allowed plenty of room to overtake the cyclists. She “did not see” the cyclists coming the other way and was still overtaking when she was “surprised” to see them.

Having seen the first cyclist, she “decided to proceed straight ahead”. The first cyclist, Ben Pontin, managed to avoid the oncoming car by braking and taking evasive action but the driver did not see the second cyclist, Denisa, until the cyclist fell into her line of travel.

The driver confirmed she was wholly or partially in the other carriageway and still conducting her overtaking when the accident involving the second cyclist, Denisa, happened, which resulted in her death from multiple injuries. These are the facts. A great deal of speculation as to what may have may have happened before, during and after the incident was brought up by the defence lawyer but Denisa could not give the key evidence.

What we do know is that Denisa was in her own lane on her side of the road and was entitled to be there.

The oncoming driver was on the wrong side of the road closing in on Denisa as she overtook the other cyclists. She estimated she was travelling at around 30mph at the time.

The car driver confirmed that she drove her car on the wrong side of the road. She answered the judge’s simple question that had she seen the two cyclists coming towards her she would not have attempted to overtake the other two cyclists. Isn’t this a clear message confirming the risky manoeuvre she made?

Dr Measures was introduced as a cancer specialist with a high moral profile. There were 10 or 12 references read to the court telling us how careful she is going to church every week.

None of these was from either experts on traffic matters or people who were present at the incident.

We find it hard to understand why this high moral person apparently has not had the courage nor courtesy to contact us in these desperately dark times to express at least her sorrow at these tragic events.

Although the verdict was not guilty, Dr Measures and her partner, who was in the passenger seat and not called as a witness, will have to live with this tragedy, as will we and all others involved. We trust their consciences can live with this.

In his summing up, the judge laid great emphasis as to Dr Measures’ character. Why? At no stage were we permitted to give evidence as to the character of our daughter — even to confirm her previous cycling experience.

The whole justice process was unsatisfactory: 15 months between Denisa’s death and the trial; three different judges at different times; disputes over expert witness costs and legal aid given to the defendant; delays while the defence lawyer received paternity leave and the trial suspended for one morning while that child was being registered; a jury mix of 10 women and two men; the discourtesy shown to our daughter’s memory.

Due to Denisa and her personality we had the opportunity to meet amazing people in England, Denisa’s colleagues and other friends, Miha and her boyfriend Ady, Dita, who helped us a lot when Denisa was in the hospital and at court and in other matters.

A special thank-you to Alan Pontin and his family. Thank you very much, Ben. You had made our Denisa happy in the last months of her life. Thank you,Tom, for encouraging us in these desperate times of our lives.

Thank you, Alan and Carol, for everything you have done for us in England. We will never forget it.

We wish to thank so many people in Henley for their massive support in these tragic times, expressing their sympathy at our loss.

Also the support we and Denisa received from the police, the ambulance service and the dedicated medical service.

Denisa, we all miss you. You did not do anything wrong.

Denisa would have been 23 on October 2. The driver was discharged for causing death by careless driving on her birthday. The verdict was the worst possible present.

The world seems to be upside down.

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peted76 | 5 years ago
4 likes

It's not a bad thing to remember the tradgey of this case, or indeed other morally degenerate cases of so called justice.

 

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vonhelmet | 5 years ago
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You’re out for cheap vengeance. You’re not going to bring anyone back, you’re not going to influence future judgements, you’re not going to get the law changed. You’re out to make yourself feel better st someone else’s expense. So, um, well done? You’ve achieved a lot, right?

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davel replied to vonhelmet | 5 years ago
5 likes

vonhelmet wrote:

You’re out for cheap vengeance. You’re not going to bring anyone back, you’re not going to influence future judgements, you’re not going to get the law changed. You’re out to make yourself feel better st someone else’s expense. So, um, well done? You’ve achieved a lot, right?

It isn't vengeance. It's just pissing against the wind of people doing shit things and having them expunged from t'internet. Big difference.

Granted, not doing much in the grand scheme of things, but then: why do anything, eh? 

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vonhelmet | 5 years ago
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Whereas that nigh unparsable sentence is anything but eloquent.

Anyway. News stories about her killing a cyclist come up high in Google’s results, so well done everybody. I’m sure you feel you’ve achieved a lot.

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brooksby replied to vonhelmet | 5 years ago
3 likes

vonhelmet wrote:

Whereas that nigh unparsable sentence is anything but eloquent.

Anyway. News stories about her killing a cyclist come up high in Google’s results, so well done everybody. I’m sure you feel you’ve achieved a lot.

Well, y’know, every little helps...  3

(why: did you think that driving like that, and a response like that, and a court judgement like that, all deserve to disappear?)

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vonhelmet replied to brooksby | 5 years ago
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brooksby wrote:

vonhelmet wrote:

Whereas that nigh unparsable sentence is anything but eloquent.

Anyway. News stories about her killing a cyclist come up high in Google’s results, so well done everybody. I’m sure you feel you’ve achieved a lot.

Well, y’know, every little helps...  3

(why: did you think that driving like that, and a response like that, and a court judgement like that, all deserve to disappear?)

I don’t think think they should disappear, but I don’t think it’s worth dredging them up to no constructive end. None of us will be safer on the roads if we succeed in tarnishing her google results.

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davel replied to vonhelmet | 5 years ago
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vonhelmet wrote:

brooksby wrote:

vonhelmet wrote:

Whereas that nigh unparsable sentence is anything but eloquent.

Anyway. News stories about her killing a cyclist come up high in Google’s results, so well done everybody. I’m sure you feel you’ve achieved a lot.

Well, y’know, every little helps...  3

(why: did you think that driving like that, and a response like that, and a court judgement like that, all deserve to disappear?)

I don’t think think they should disappear, but I don’t think it’s worth dredging them up to no constructive end. None of us will be safer on the roads if we succeed in tarnishing her google results.

So the explanations you've had so far don't meet your definition of 'constructive end'.

It should be pretty clear by now that they do by certain people.

How the fuck are they not going to disappear, in the face of her 'disappearing' them? 

To flip your bizarre proposition: are any of us more at risk now that some Web pages remember Helen Measures more than she'd like?

And if you're having trouble parsing that: do one to a thread where you're actually adding something. 

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davel replied to vonhelmet | 5 years ago
4 likes

vonhelmet wrote:

Whereas that nigh unparsable sentence is anything but eloquent.

Anyway. News stories about her killing a cyclist come up high in Google’s results, so well done everybody. I’m sure you feel you’ve achieved a lot.

We've put a tiny amount of effort into making it less likely that an obnoxious piece of shit, who killed a cyclist via a dodgy manoeuvre and was then quoted expressing very little remorse, who employed an equally obnoxious lawyer, and then made attempts to have pages referring to the incident 'disappear', is forgotten a bit less than she'd like to be. 

The effort made is about as much effort as you have put into denigrating our efforts, sarcastically. So well done you. 

No, silly me, not well done.

Fuck off. That's the one. 

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janusz0 replied to vonhelmet | 5 years ago
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vonhelmet wrote:

Whereas that nigh unparsable sentence is anything but eloquent.

The parsing, then known as "clause analysis", that I learned at primary school has served me well. The meaning is perfectly clear, although I would have added a couple of commas, if had I written it.

I will reserve my repugnance for Helen Measures.

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Morgoth985 | 5 years ago
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Now look, we’re just going around in a cycle of agreement here that measures need to be in place to prevent murder.  I’m sure there will be a steering group that’s driving this case right through to the death.

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rhustle | 5 years ago
3 likes
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CygnusX1 replied to rhustle | 5 years ago
3 likes
rhustle wrote:

 

Just read this. Sad.

http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/emergency-services/86576/heartfelt-...

Very sad indeed, and eloquently put. The fact that the verdict that Helen Measures who killed a cyclist whilst she (Measures) was performing an overtaking manoeuvre was not guilty of careless driving was given on the birthday of the victim seems particularly cruel.

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FluffyKittenofT... | 5 years ago
4 likes

Some forms of selfish recklessness, while in a technical legal sense not the same as killing with intent (murder), are pretty much on-a-par  with it, morally.

  It would serve the interests of justice if measures were in place to address that.  And once in place, measures should stay in that place for a very long time.

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Morgoth985 | 5 years ago
4 likes

Just so I've got this right, we're talking about Helen Measures, who is the same person that we're not calling a murderer (in text, on the internet etc etc), because none of us would be so foolish as to go that far.  That Helen Measures?

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Jimmy Ray Will | 5 years ago
6 likes

I feel for jurors in these cases, as they have no solid framework to base their judgements on.

For instance. I propose that anyone involved in a collision whilst driving on the wrong side of the road should start from a position of guilty, not the current position of innocent until proven guilty.

Why are there questions around this? You drive on the left of the road. There are generally white lines down suitably wide enough roads to dictate which side is which. Its not rocket science. 

I appreciate that there are perfectly valid reasons to move into the oncoming lane, however when doing so, there should always, and I mean always, be a responsbility borne by the person doing so, to do so in a safe manner. 

Oncoming traffic having to stop, having to manouvere out of the way, should be seen as an automatic fail in that responsibility. 

If jurors delierated this case, with the above guideline in place, how could they fail to convict? Its all well and good saying the cyclist didn't have the skill to avoid the collision and is therefore culpable, however that becomes a moot point, when that cyclists need to have that skill is in itself an admission of guilt for the driver. 

Basically I'm saying that many of the current issues we experience is around juror decisions, and if we could sort this out, a lot of the other issues would go away... maybe. 

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brooksby | 5 years ago
3 likes

It just seems to me that the Gov are concentrating on "dangerous bl00dy cyclists" (Alliston case, basically), whereas there are so many more cases where justice doesn't seem to have been done where the tyre was on the other wheel, so to speak.

We have Helen Measures killing Denisa Perinova, Gail Purcell killing Michael Mason, and other cases that google can find for you (those are the two that came straight to mind).

The figures on KSI by motorists are awful, whether a pedestrian is crossing the road or just going about their business on a footpath they are still massively more likely to be KSI by a motorist than by a cyclist.

BTBS found the figures for KSI by a cyclist vs KSI by a motorist, and the one is thousands of times greater than the other.  And I don't think that a cyclist has ever killed a motorist on the roads...

But, yeah, lets concentrate on dangerous cyclists, eh...? 

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hawkinspeter | 5 years ago
3 likes

It'd be justice if every juror member had a close friend or family member killed in a similar manner and had to stand by whilst their killers got completely let off.

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vonhelmet | 5 years ago
3 likes

She’s obviously not a murderer, given she didn’t intend to kill anyone. Anyone calling her a murderer would be a fool. Fortunately, you wouldn’t go that far.

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davel replied to vonhelmet | 5 years ago
4 likes

vonhelmet wrote:

She’s obviously not a murderer, given she didn’t intend to kill anyone. Anyone calling her a murderer would be a fool. Fortunately, you wouldn’t go that far.

Dr Helen Measures, a murderer? No, I wouldn't say that, but I can see why some might. In text. On the Internet. 

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PRSboy | 5 years ago
3 likes

Reports say it was the A415 (which I don't think exists in Henley) but I'm sure it was the B480 Stonor valley road.

I ride up there regularly, a beautiful peaceful road, twisty and very poorly sighted and there are very few places to safely do 50mph.

Reading the reports at the time I simply can't believe she got away with it.

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fenix | 5 years ago
2 likes

We've all been those cyclists haven't we - car overtakes bikes on their side and comes head on to us.  

 

Whether it's poor sight or poor driving I don't know - but its there for the grace of god goes us. Poor Denisa. No fault of her own. Tragic. 

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hawkinspeter replied to fenix | 5 years ago
3 likes

fenix wrote:

We've all been those cyclists haven't we - car overtakes bikes on their side and comes head on to us.  

 

Whether it's poor sight or poor driving I don't know - but its there for the grace of god goes us. Poor Denisa. No fault of her own. Tragic. 

My view is that overtaking when you cannot see that it is safe to do so is definitely poor and inconsiderate driving.

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BehindTheBikesheds replied to hawkinspeter | 5 years ago
4 likes

hawkinspeter wrote:

fenix wrote:

We've all been those cyclists haven't we - car overtakes bikes on their side and comes head on to us.  

 

Whether it's poor sight or poor driving I don't know - but its there for the grace of god goes us. Poor Denisa. No fault of her own. Tragic. 

My view is that overtaking when you cannot see that it is safe to do so is definitely poor and inconsiderate driving.

Surely by definition it's dangerous given the known outcomes and indeed was the root cause of why someone died. Should have been maslaughter.

One can but hope guilt haunts her every day but I doubt it, she clearly can only see her involvement in the death of a human being as trivial at most. I can only wish horrible bad luck for her and her brief, that the judge did not intervene when he said what he did is an utter disgrace in itself. Jurists, well, how typical that these people are so often the problem and that they based on their low standards are allowed to sit in judgement of someone of the same level so cannot have an objective view by definition. That general public have an anti cycling viewpoint in itself means trials such as these cannot ever be fair or just.

The gov and CPS are weak as fuck and we are in a more dangerous society and more deaths and injuries occur because of their inaction/failures to address the issues at all levels.

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peted76 | 5 years ago
7 likes

Defence lawyer scum.

"Summing up, Mr Fielding (defence laywer) said: “Ben Pontin said it was a stupid decision to overtake. It was nowhere near as stupid as Mr Pontin’s decision to put Denisa Perinova on that bike in the first place.

“He ought not to have been so reckless with the life of his young girlfriend and he failed with terrible consequences.”

 

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brooksby replied to peted76 | 5 years ago
1 like

peted76 wrote:

Defence lawyer scum.

"Summing up, Mr Fielding (defence laywer) said: “Ben Pontin said it was a stupid decision to overtake. It was nowhere near as stupid as Mr Pontin’s decision to put Denisa Perinova on that bike in the first place.

“He ought not to have been so reckless with the life of his young girlfriend and he failed with terrible consequences.”

That statement got torn apart after the trial.  The defence had made out it was practically her first time on a bike, whereas her family - after the close of the trial - claimed that she was an experienced and regular cyclist (a fact which wasn't used in court).

I think ktache here on road.cc is pretty knowledgeable on this particular case, too, and might be able to expand on that.

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