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Hors category climbs…

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  • July 29, 2017 at 4:55 pm #27422
    sergius

    Bit of a tale of woe this, no real point to this post other than looking for people who have also failed miserably to ride to the top.

    I generally fancy myself as a reasonably competent climber, as much as anyone living and riding in Surrey can be at least.  I’ve just gotten back from a family holiday in Lake Garda, as I often do, I hired a bike for a day to go out and see the local area.  I had hoped to visit Stelvio Pass, but the chap in the bike shop pointed out it was 130km away and at least a couple of hours by car – so that plan was out.

    He rather helpfully suggested Mount Baldo, which is on the eastern side of the lake – just north of Garda itself.  He enquired about my fitness levels; to which I responded they are pretty good (I guess that means something different to an Italian cyclist who lives in the Alps..)

    He suggested I ride around to Assenza, and then head up from there to Prada.  What I should have done was to have scouted out the climb on the net (and then chosen to ride up from Garda which was twice the distance but half the gradient), what I did do was go out for a Pizza and beer(s) before getting up early the next day to head out for a ride.

    Once I got to Assenza I probably should have listened to the voice in my head that pointed out it looked a bit steep.  I definately should have heeded the sign once leaving Assenza, which stated it was a “black” climb, with gradients of 12-20% for 10km.  I started up anyway, I was there already and didn’t have the time to dramatically alter my route.  The first km wasn’t too awful, a mix of steep stuff and some spinny bits, but then the hairpins started.

    For those of you who know the Surrey hills well; there are a couple of fairly well known nasty climbs which will get 95% of people out of the saddle crawling up, White Down and Crooknorth.  Those climbs are 14% or so and go on for maybe 3-400m; this climb (https://www.strava.com/segments/4169471) was similar, albeit over 5km long…

    The road ramped up sharply and I ended up doing the usual out of the saddle hauling the bike up the hill.  I got to the second hairpin and was already struggling, the sign on the corner said “17°” which I had assumed was the gradient.  I struggled on to the next corner, the sign said “16°”.  At this point I was on my last legs so I decided to push the bike for a bit, which became rather more than a bit as the gradient ramped up even further and I realised the signs were designating the number of the corners… Rather than the gradient.

    All in all I ended up pushing the bike for about 3-4 km up this damn thing, before it finally leveled off in a far more pleasant 5-7% for the final couple of km into Prada.  All that pushing didn’t do a great deal for my mood, nor for my cleats which were completely worn away by the rubbish road surface on the ascent.  I now found myself riding through a few snowy fields with cleats that wouldn’t engage – looking forward to descending on an unfamiliar bike with little ability to keep my feet on the peddles.

    Just to make things interesting, Italy then threw one of its sudden torrential storms into the mix (which of course I was dressed completely inappropriately for).  Needless to say a very cold, very wet and extremely careful ride back down the mountain and over to our hotel followed.

     

    I have to say, I’m not sure how anyone gets the fitness to ride up something like that; it was a monstrous climb compared to anything I’ve seen before.

    Oh well, I hope this is of use to someone – It’s been cathartic to write at least.  Time to go and replace my cleats and find a route to explore tomorrow as Ride London will close off all my usual routes.

     

    Cheers!

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  • August 6, 2017 at 4:46 pm #898483
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    CXR94Di2

    I’ve just started doing
    I’ve just started doing training for mont Ventoux this week. I loaded up my simulator with the route from Bedoin. I didn’t have my MTB Cass on my Kickr so knew the cadence would be below comfortable. I took me 2.05 hrs @250W average, with a cadence of 70rpm. I began to really feel it in the kegs over the last 2 miles. I could of probably gone sub 2hrs with a cadence of 80+ rpm

    August 5, 2017 at 11:48 pm #898481
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    darrenleroy

    I’m a bit of a part-timer

    I’m a bit of a part-timer with the bike, normally getting out once a fortnight for a couple of hours in rolling hills and putting the bike away for winter. My cycling-mad best mate persuaded me to travel to Italy to do the Stelvio last month.

    We hired bikes with 50-34 on the front and 11-32 on the rear cassette. The ride started off okay on lovely smooth tarmac and gentle gradients but as the air got thinner – it’s 2757 metres at the top which equates to 25 per cent less oxygen – and the switchbacks got progressively steeper I entered a world of pain. I’m a stone overweight as well which really didn’t help. Nor did the beers and local meat and carb heavy meal the night before. I made it to the top but I had to stop four times and felt a bit delirious and had to lie down in the cafe. We did a couple more rides out there and since being back I’ve felt a lot stronger on the bike and more confident that I can tackle pretty much anything the south west can throw at me. 

     

    Incidentally, we moved on to France because my friend wanted to do Alpe d’Huez and shared a guesthouse with a very experienced, middle-aged Belgian who fitted a mountain bike triple to his front and got up the top in 52 minutes which seems very fast to me. 

    August 1, 2017 at 12:32 pm #898479
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    Dnnnnnn
    rogermerriman wrote:
    Assuming Strava’s average is in the right ball park, which is 13% thats a seriously high average, same as stuff like hardknott pass but fair bit longer.

    None of the Surrey hills (just) top 10% average so that is quite a step up in gradient!

    Most of the Iconic climbs is less the gradient more the distance/time your climbing at least thats what i’ve found, mind you I’ve only done one Hors in Mt teide.

    I was sceptical when you compared it to Hardknott for steepness so checked it out and – damn – you’re right! I suppose there’s a flatter (but far from flat) middle section on Hardknott to offset the 30% silly bits but still…

    The thought of Hardknott-times-several makes me feel unwell!

    August 1, 2017 at 11:39 am #898477
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    rogermerriman

    Assuming Strava’s average is

    Assuming Strava’s average is in the right ball park, which is 13% thats a seriously high average, same as stuff like hardknott pass but fair bit longer.

     

    None of the Surrey hills (just) top 10% average so that is quite a step up in gradient!

     

    Most of the Iconic climbs is less the gradient more the distance/time your climbing at least thats what i’ve found, mind you I’ve only done one Hors in Mt teide.

    August 1, 2017 at 10:55 am #898475
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    Anonymous

    My fastest strava hill

    My fastest strava hill efforts are always (at least partly) out of the saddle. These don’t usually go with a good overall speed though. Sometimes the freshness coming over the top is worth dropping a handful of seconds over.

    August 1, 2017 at 9:48 am #898473
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    Jack Osbourne snr

    CXR94Di2 wrote:

    CXR94Di2 wrote:
    I think we’re talking about the average cyclist who unless quite light in weight or both young and light will struggle to climb 10,15,20%hills unless you do what I’ve done and fit MTB gearset to a road bike. I can reduce power down into the 200W range whilst climbing 20%hills using high cadence gearing

     

    That wouldn’t work for the likes of me. I’d have no chance of keeping the cadence high enough to avoid sliding slowly backwards down the hill.

    As a teenager, I learnt to climb on a 53/42 up front and it has fixed me as a masher for, it would seem, life. I’ve tried for years to train myself into running at a generally higher cadence but unless I consciously focus on it, I always end up at masher rpm.

    I’m usually too focused on enjoying the scenery to be able to concentrate on cadence as I never got round to buying a cadence meter and therefore need to count it manually!

     

    Yes, I am my own worst enemy.

    August 1, 2017 at 8:49 am #898471
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    CXR94Di2

    I think we’re talking about
    I think we’re talking about the average cyclist who unless quite light in weight or both young and light will struggle to climb 10,15,20%hills unless you do what I’ve done and fit MTB gearset to a road bike. I can reduce power down into the 200W range whilst climbing 20%hills using high cadence gearing

    August 1, 2017 at 8:04 am #898469
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    madcarew

    CXR94Di2 wrote:

    CXR94Di2 wrote:
    Pablo I disagree with power not being useful. If you can hold 250 Watts for 2hours on the flat, then if you’re maintaining the same cadence, transfering the effort to a climb is very similar. It’s all about gearing. However if you’re over geared for a climb and can’t get into your comfort cadence, it then all goes out of the window, re,power, effort and comfort

     

    Pablo really is right. The main issue is in the mind. There’s a high chance our OP would have been able to ride the climb in reasonable comfort after 3 attempts a few days apart. It’s called neuromuscular programming. Part of the muscle memory thing.  Also Pablo is right in that (250W ) will not get you up a 20% climb unless you have very very low gearing, as wattage is torque x RPM, and at some point if you can’t raise the torque to turn the pedals repeatedly you will not be able to advance up the climb., SO, if you want to get up a climb on (eg a 36:28 ratio) you are going to do enough work to be able to deliver a torque high enough to produce more than (your example) 250W. A turbo trainer, or high gear work will be useful training for that. Dutch riders have often been good climbers in the tour as they used to have a culture of training in really big gears in strong windy conditions (going back a few years now….)

    July 31, 2017 at 9:08 pm #898467
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    sergius

    CXR94Di2 wrote:

    CXR94Di2 wrote:
    sergius wrote:

    Looking at a few of my Strava logs for some of my local hills which I ride all the time, where I know where I have to get out of the saddle; it seems that anything over 8-9% will consistently have me out of the saddle and grinding.

    Interestingly I don’t tend to use the the 32 cog and spin up them (I almost never use it in Surrey), I tend to drop from the 28 to the 25 and then get out of the saddle.

    I know from experimentation; the top little spike at the top of Ranmore Common Road (maybe 100m at 9-10%) that I can just about remain seated and push up it using the 32 but my cadence dropped sufficiently that it felt really uncomfortable.  I think I just have a thing with cadences under roughly 70 that don’t work well for me seated – I’d rather be standing and using a higher gear when only managing 50-60 RPM.

     

    Imagine that 100 metres is a 1000 or 2000 metres. Standing up for that length of time will destroy your strength. It’s much better to stay seated and spin away.

     

    Something I need to work on 🙂

    July 31, 2017 at 8:10 pm #898465
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    CXR94Di2

    sergius wrote:

    sergius wrote:

    Looking at a few of my Strava logs for some of my local hills which I ride all the time, where I know where I have to get out of the saddle; it seems that anything over 8-9% will consistently have me out of the saddle and grinding.

    Interestingly I don’t tend to use the the 32 cog and spin up them (I almost never use it in Surrey), I tend to drop from the 28 to the 25 and then get out of the saddle.

    I know from experimentation; the top little spike at the top of Ranmore Common Road (maybe 100m at 9-10%) that I can just about remain seated and push up it using the 32 but my cadence dropped sufficiently that it felt really uncomfortable.  I think I just have a thing with cadences under roughly 70 that don’t work well for me seated – I’d rather be standing and using a higher gear when only managing 50-60 RPM.

     

    Imagine that 100 metres is a 1000 or 2000 metres. Standing up for that length of time will destroy your strength. It’s much better to stay seated and spin away.

    July 31, 2017 at 7:50 pm #898463
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    sergius

    Looking at a few of my Strava

    Looking at a few of my Strava logs for some of my local hills which I ride all the time, where I know where I have to get out of the saddle; it seems that anything over 8-9% will consistently have me out of the saddle and grinding.

    Interestingly I don’t tend to use the the 32 cog and spin up them (I almost never use it in Surrey), I tend to drop from the 28 to the 25 and then get out of the saddle.

    I know from experimentation; the top little spike at the top of Ranmore Common Road (maybe 100m at 9-10%) that I can just about remain seated and push up it using the 32 but my cadence dropped sufficiently that it felt really uncomfortable.  I think I just have a thing with cadences under roughly 70 that don’t work well for me seated – I’d rather be standing and using a higher gear when only managing 50-60 RPM.

     

    July 31, 2017 at 7:30 pm #898461
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    CXR94Di2

    Most of the comments seem to
    Most of the comments seem to be about compact groupset and 11-28/32 whilst climbing steep long hills. A hill like Leith hill is no different to mont Ventoux if you’re prepared, in fitness and gearing. I’ve cycled up Mt Teide and it’s long old climb.(maybe not an epic like Ventoux etc)

    Those who did Tour de Yorkshire this year will remember that the first hill was an absolute swine. I saw and passed a number of light, fit riders struggle, grinding at ridiculously slow cadence 30-40rpm. I used 28 chainring and 40t sprocket. I was able to keep a decent cadence ave 78rpm max 98rpm. Don’t get me wrong it was bloody hard first hill, I was in better shape when I crested it than some of those who literally dragged themselves up.

    If you like climbing monster hills, select gearing which will allow you to perform at your best.

    July 31, 2017 at 6:44 pm #898459
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    Chris Hayes

    Bike Channel has a programme

    Bike Channel has a programme called Greatest Climbs hosted by Paolo Savoldelli & Massimo Boglia which consists of them riding up steep hills in Italy.   They often comment on how many climbing metres you need to have in your legs  (that year) before you attempt the steeper climbs… I think they’d wince at someone riding up Leith Hill on the odd Sunday and then tackling the Stelvio on their holidays….the gradients may be similar but its the strain it puts on your heart doing it 20x without a break.  Gears will help, obvioulsy, but unless you’re used to it you’ll soon be at threshold and quickly red-lining.   They do the climbs on a 36/28 and are constantly commenting on how much harder it used to be on a 39-23!    Lots of walkers up Leith Hill on Sunday, by the way…..  

    July 31, 2017 at 6:42 pm #898457
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    alansmurphy

    Don’t underestimate the
    Don’t underestimate the gearing. Like Dave I am Cheshire based and for Ventoux used a few shorter hills and reps in the red. A lump at just 5% for a mile worked quite nicely doing reps with a 2 mile return where I was actually in zone 5 on the return got me used to pushing up while on the edge. It worked well for my Ventoux climb.

    On the other hand, Mow Cop nearby has the killer mile with the last few hundred metres being 25%. Even with plenty of miles upwards under my belt I can’t do the final slog on a 34-28 but can on a much heavier bike with 34-32. I think long climbs of under 12% you can battle and spin, there’s not much cheating north of 15%.

    July 31, 2017 at 4:50 pm #898455
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    Carton

    That’s not tale of woe, IMHO.
    That’s not tale of woe, IMHO. A 13% HC climb that starts easy and ends easy means that the through of it was likely around 15%. That’s as hard as it gets on a road bike. Pros weren’t regularly doing climbs thay hard until 10-speeds and compacts were invented. Not only did you have a go, but you crested it. Chapeau.

    But as has been mentioned, you were more than likely undergeared. Yep, you can train pushing lower cadences. But climbs like that are why pros use compacts and 32 cassettes, never mind us mere mortals. 34-32 is 22% easier than 36-28. That’s huge.

    I just rode this weekend with a much fitter friend up a 13% gradient with that same gearing difference and he cracked while I was almost-but-not-quite-at my limit. He proceded to destroy my PB by nearly 2 mins on the next (7%) climb. He’s more of a spinner than me, so even though he’s probably around 10% fitter he likely couldn’t even match my lowest sustainable cadence, much less go 10% lower than that, for more than a few minutes. Which was precisely what happened. Gear ratios are a thing for a reason.

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