Third cyclist killed on London Cycle Superhighway, tipper lorry involved

Latest death 2 weeks after Coroner's report into earlier fatalities

by Simon_MacMichael   November 5, 2013  

Broken bike (CC licensed image by garryknight, www.flickr.com)

A cyclist has been killed this afternoon on Barclays Cycle Superhighway CS2 in east London, the third cyclist to die on the route in a little over two years. Once again, a tipper lorry is reported to be the vehicle involved.

The incident that claimed the unnamed male bike rider’s life at took place on Mile End Road in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, reports the BBC. It happened at 4.38pm, according to the Metropolitan Police.

That location lies between the western end of the route, where student Philippine de Gerin-Ricard lost her life in a collision with a lorry in July this year, and the eastern end of the route at Bow Roundabout, where Brian Dorling was killed by a tipper truck in October 2011.

The latest fatality on CS2 takes place a fortnight after a Coroner gave Mayor of London Boris Johnson, who chairs Transport for London, 56 days to respond to a Prevention of Future Deaths report issued following the inquests last month into those two previous deaths.

It comes just one day before the eastern extension of CS2 from Bow to Stratford is due to open.

The new route incorporates safety features including kerbed cycle lanes that have been welcomed by cycle campaigners but which are missing from the existing route – described by a police accident investigator at the inquest into Mr Dorling’s death as “just a piece of blue paint.”

 

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Nah - now we're just troll-baiting the nutter

posted by mad_scot_rider [544 posts]
6th November 2013 - 14:23

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posted by ribena [135 posts]
6th November 2013 - 14:33

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As an aside...

- The number and all kinds of cyclists I've seen riding with earphones aren't doing themselves any favours. Why dull a sense needed to keep you alive?

- In the interest of balance, I saw a driver plugged into headphones too the other day. Didn't make sense to me either.

- I remember before the CSs were painted onto the roads, and we still had lots of the same problems as now.

- Tbh I get the impression that lots of people think "blue lane = safe now = brain off".

- How can reader of this website still think there's such a thing as 'road tax'? seriously?

posted by nod [60 posts]
6th November 2013 - 14:45

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nod wrote:
- How can reader of this website still think there's such a thing as 'road tax'? seriously?

The last is easily answered at least - he's not a reader of the website normally, he's a single-issue troll who decided to go off on one and made himself look stupid

posted by mad_scot_rider [544 posts]
6th November 2013 - 14:50

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nod wrote:
When you're in an ASL it's because the traffic has stopped at the lights. I don't think anybody would sit in an ASL while the traffic is fast moving. Perhaps that's where you're going wrong!

Are you that dumb or think that being facetious is really clever?

Go and look at ASL's and you'll see that despite being across the width of the road, cyclists still tend to stay on the lefthand side and in the gutter.

Despite the design being that it gives cyclists a 'head start', it places them in front of faster moving traffic that as soon as the lights change, hurtle towards them. (motorbikes are especially guilty of this). They are a shit (non) solution to terrible junction design and there is a very good reason they are not used on mainland Europe.

nod wrote:
It's not victim blaming, it's not the 'them against us' you think it is. It's about been aware, using some common sense, taking responsibility for your safety and living to see another day.

Go and read your original comment because its obvious you have a massive discrepancy between what goes on in your head and reality.

zanf's picture

posted by zanf [467 posts]
6th November 2013 - 14:57

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trucking cyclist wrote:
.i had one man about the age of the chap killed on the mile end road,,come into my blindspot,

See, this is the problem with large motorized vehicles: they have massive blindspots. Really, as we're speaking some home truths here, said vehicles should only be driven in a hyper-cautious manner. If not, then we end up with accidents.

trucking cyclist wrote:

i was alerted by sensors,lean on my cab,despite there being a green box in front and DESPITE THE VEHICLE SHOUTING AT HIM REPEATEDLY THAT THIS VEHICLE IS TURNING LEFT..WHEN I GOT OUT AND ASKED HIM WHAT HE WAS DOING HE TOOK OFF THROUGH THE RED LIGHT WITHOUT LOOKING.

So you knew there was a cyclist there. He knew you knew, you knew he knew, it was a red-light... what's the problem? Apart from you screaming at him like a nutter?

trucking cyclist wrote:

Another man of the of a similar age on a BORIS BIKE decided that i should not be in the very wide bus lane at whitechapel despite me being there legally and moved to the centre of the bus lane after looking directly at me and held up all traffic.

Which can be rephrased as "Another man of 52 years of age on a TIPPER LORRY decided that a cyclist should not be in the center of a magic bus lane which is wide enough for a TIPPER LORRY to pass a bicycle with a car's width. Despite the cyclist being there legally."

Quote:

STAY AWAY FROM TRUCKS....THEY ARE ONLY DANGEROUS IF YOU PUT YOURSELF IN A DANGEROUS POSITION.

See, there's another problem... some of the people driving the trucks KEEP PUTTING OTHER ROAD USERS IN A DANGEROUS POSITION.

posted by Ush [389 posts]
6th November 2013 - 14:59

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zanf wrote:
nod wrote:
When you're in an ASL it's because the traffic has stopped at the lights. I don't think anybody would sit in an ASL while the traffic is fast moving. Perhaps that's where you're going wrong!

Are you that dumb or think that being facetious is really clever?

Go and look at ASL's and you'll see that despite being across the width of the road, cyclists still tend to stay on the lefthand side and in the gutter.

Despite the design being that it gives cyclists a 'head start', it places them in front of faster moving traffic that as soon as the lights change, hurtle towards them. (motorbikes are especially guilty of this). They are a shit (non) solution to terrible junction design and there is a very good reason they are not used on mainland Europe.

nod wrote:
It's not victim blaming, it's not the 'them against us' you think it is. It's about been aware, using some common sense, taking responsibility for your safety and living to see another day.

Go and read your original comment because its obvious you have a massive discrepancy between what goes on in your head and reality.

Is your head just constantly replaying Mad Max? And I know what I said, and I stand by it.

posted by nod [60 posts]
6th November 2013 - 15:00

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trucking cyclist wrote:
menace to society.

You mean like this Truck driver?: http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/01614/PETER_SUTCLIFFE_1614684...

posted by farrell [1385 posts]
6th November 2013 - 15:00

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trucking cyclist wrote:
YOU ARE ALL MISSING THE POINT,,,NONE OF THESE DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY ANYONE OVERTAKING OR CUTTING UP..

Really? The one that we're talking about here, is one where the witness quoted says the truck drove into the back of him.

trucking cyclist wrote:

THE BUS LANE AT THAT POINT IS WIDE ENOUGH FOR 2 LORRIES...HE WAS A BLOODY MINDED FOOL PUTTING HIMSELF IN DANGER AS MANY CYCLISTS DO,,

How is he in danger? You saw him clearly according to yourself. Could you please provide a more exact location for this bus-lane so that I may judge for myself if it is "wide enough for two lorries" and whether or not there is an intersection close after it. The last bit is interesting: taking the lane becomes more necessary when there are junctions shortly ahead where impatient/incompetent drivers will perform a hook turn... leading to the phenomenon of a cyclist getting squashed and then some fool ranting that cyclists should not be near traffic lights or junctions.

Your bloody-minded fool sounds like a smart man to me.

posted by Ush [389 posts]
6th November 2013 - 15:04

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Am I the only one who thinks using capitals is the web equivalent of green ink in reader's letters from olden times?

OldRidgeback

posted by OldRidgeback [2164 posts]
6th November 2013 - 15:16

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Bad news guys - I think our refusal to get off his roads has made Mr. Shoutie leave in a huff Wave

posted by mad_scot_rider [544 posts]
6th November 2013 - 15:16

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mad_scot_rider wrote:
nod wrote:
- How can reader of this website still think there's such a thing as 'road tax'? seriously?

The last is easily answered at least - he's not a reader of the website normally, he's a single-issue troll who decided to go off on one and made himself look stupid

Sounds reasonable!

posted by nod [60 posts]
6th November 2013 - 15:24

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mad_scot_rider wrote:
Bad news guys - I think our refusal to get off his roads has made Mr. Shoutie leave in a huff Wave

I think he may have gone back to his several twitter accounts.

posted by farrell [1385 posts]
6th November 2013 - 15:50

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We shouldn't be dismissing Mr Shoutie's rant, any more than drivers should be dismissing what cyclists are saying. We have to work much more closely on this, and listen to what each group is saying.

Mr Shoutie has taken the trouble to contribute to a cycling forum, has probably read the many vitrolic reponses to his piece, and may have already decided that his views are not appreciated. No doubt his colleagues will similarly less inclined too. Is this barrier to communication really helpful when, given the painfully slow development of cycle friendly infrastructure, anything we can do to improve attitudes and understanding would be valuable ?

I do appreciate that cyclists get short thrift on HGV forums, so it works both ways, but we should all be more willing to listen to alternative points of view.

"Hey..... Let's be visible out there."

Neil753's picture

posted by Neil753 [451 posts]
6th November 2013 - 16:25

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Seriously?

Neil753 wrote:
We shouldn't be dismissing Mr Shoutie's rant

Sorry - any first time posters with a caps lock problem and the gall to blame a dead man for dying (without full details of the incident in question being available) is prime fodder for the cold shoulder as far as I'm concerned

Neil753 wrote:
and listen to what each group is saying.

I saw no evidence of this on his part either to be fair

Neil753 wrote:
I do appreciate that cyclists get short thrift on HGV forums, so it works both ways, but we should all be more willing to listen to alternative points of view.

He didn't have a point of view - his post was what I called it - a rant.

Had he expressed any willingness to engage, any empathy, any thoughts about improvement (Dear Dog! Any thought at all would have been good) then maybe I could engage in reasoned debate

He is what he was treated as - a Troll - you can do two things with them, either ignore them or bait them till they choke on their own bile

I find it much more fun to do the latter - so sue me Big Grin

posted by mad_scot_rider [544 posts]
6th November 2013 - 16:51

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@TIPPERTRUCK DRIVING SHOUTING CYCLIST I find it interesting that there is a bus lane wide enough for 2 tipper trucks in Whitechapel! I've never seen a road in Whitchapel wide enough for that, and a traffic lane, let alone any other oncoming traffic. Besides that, I've never seen a bus lane wide enough for anything more than 1 bus, let alone 2 tipper trucks. Please, please please tell me where it is so i can see the magic roundabout that must be at the end of it!

posted by md6 [156 posts]
6th November 2013 - 17:59

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I'm sticking my neck on the line, but I actually agree with some of the things that Mr. BIG CAPS has said Worried

I've driven in lorries around London, and unfortunately, there are some absolute knobheads on bicycles. I've been cycling for over thirty plus years and the roads are now more congested than ever. Never mind London; it's the whole of GB. Sad

I nearly ran over a girl on a fixed gear bike with no brakes. as she pulled out of a side street. When I pulled up at the lights she was on the phone with headphones in. She was totally oblivious to the world around her, so who's at fault now?

We can all point the finger at Beemer drivers, trucks, mopeds, pedestrians, 4x4s etc. but the public transport is a feckin' bad joke in all cities.

Whichever government is in "power" always screws up the roads regarding safety. The politicians are clueless and scared to make a decision, in case they lose votes.

So, to everyone on here, what do you expect and what will you do to prevent cyclists being killed?

SustranSoftie

posted by Sustransoftie [9 posts]
6th November 2013 - 18:44

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Sustransoftie wrote:
I'm sticking my neck on the line, but I actually agree with some of the things that Mr. BIG CAPS has said Worried

I've driven in lorries around London, and unfortunately, there are some absolute knobheads on bicycles. I've been cycling for over thirty plus years and the roads are now more congested than ever. Never mind London; it's the whole of GB. Sad

I nearly ran over a girl on a fixed gear bike with no brakes. as she pulled out of a side street. When I pulled up at the lights she was on the phone with headphones in. She was totally oblivious to the world around her, so who's at fault now?

We can all point the finger at Beemer drivers, trucks, mopeds, pedestrians, 4x4s etc. but the public transport is a feckin' bad joke in all cities.

Whichever government is in "power" always screws up the roads regarding safety. The politicians are clueless and scared to make a decision, in case they lose votes.

So, to everyone on here, what do you expect and what will you do to prevent cyclists being killed?


Don't be afraid to put your head above the parapet; there are a number of HGV drivers on this forum. It's good to hear things from a different perspective.

"Hey..... Let's be visible out there."

Neil753's picture

posted by Neil753 [451 posts]
6th November 2013 - 20:16

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Neil753 wrote:
William Black wrote:
[/sweeping generalisations regarding fat lorry drivers>

A bit extreme, isn't it? As a C+E licence holder, I'd say the testing standards in the UK are among the highest within the EU, We now have to undertake regular professional competence training by law, and stringent medical testing starts when you reach the age of 45. All measures far beyond those required of other drivers.

Perhaps, and I did add the "sweeping generalisations" bit as I'm all too aware there are numerous exceptions to any rule.

But as the 'Shouty Man Troll' has demonstrated so wonderfully, when lorry (again citing the exceptions to the rule) drivers don't even have the slightest clue as to why a cyclist in a narrow lane might want to place himself bang in the middle, and think he's 'deliberately trying to hold up traffic'** rather than just protect himself, it just seems to me we're banging heads against a brick wall and only continued driver education can save us.

** One of the best retorts to this was by a rider in the team of a friend doing JOGLE with a big support van tailing them. They pulled in to a 'greasy spoon' layby for a refresh of bottles and all that a few minutes later a driver on the way to the burger van see's them all and remarks 'oh, you're the ones who were holding up the traffic back there' rider replies quite simply with "we are traffic" bloke didn't have a response to that one.

William Black's picture

posted by William Black [196 posts]
6th November 2013 - 20:46

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I don't drive a motor vehicle, I ride a bicycle in London every day

the complete disregard shown for the law (highway code) by many cyclists is absolutely shocking when you witness it whilst commuting on a bicycle

Tonight I rode from WC2 to NW1 (only 3 miles) and at every red light I stopped at, numerous cyclists (mainly men on fixies and road bikes) happily sped through the red light and took their chances with pedestrians and oncoming traffic

I call these idiots "Traffic Light Gangsters" (TLG) because they are obviously 'hard-men' who don't need to obey the law, or common sense, because of their gangster mentality.

When many cyclists are jumping lights, riding on pavements, riding against one-way traffic and doing whatever the hell they like, its not surprising that many motor vehicle drivers are seriously worried or pissed off at cyclists

of course we all see dangerous driving from private motor vehicles, taxis, HGV and London Bus, but acting like a stupid c*nt on your bike just antagonizes these people, and also more importantly puts yourself and others in danger, especially vulnerable pedestrians, or other road users who may be involved when an oncoming motor vehicle has to suddenly take evasive action to avoid a bicycle, only to then plough into another road user or bus stop!

posted by hampstead_bandit [123 posts]
6th November 2013 - 22:21

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@hampstead_bandit:

I think this quote from TfL traffic engineer Brian Deegan contains a useful insight:

I remember saying to Dutch engineers: “Well cyclists don’t stop at the lights.” And they said: “Well what’s the matter with your design?” They meant what was I doing in the way of designing road infrastructure that is making cyclists feel it’s better to break the rules.

http://lcc.org.uk/articles/interview-brian-deegan-transport-for-londons-...

Ask yourself, also, why you're so annoyed at cyclists breaking the rules when drivers do the same things with far more serious consequences. Accidents caused by cyclists jumping red lights are rare, because nobody who rides through a red light does so without looking at what's coming - even if you can't see them do so. And I defy you to find me any significant number of examples of accidents caused by drivers swerving to avoid a cyclist doing the wrong thing.

The stats show clearly that the majority of collisions between cyclists and motor vehicles are the fault of the driver, and no amount of ranting about cyclist behaviour will change that.

One thing these discussions always demonstrate to me is that the group that hates cyclists most isn't Audi drivers, cabbies or truckers, it's a small but vocal minority of my fellow cyclists. I find that rather sad.

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posted by John Stevenson [1009 posts]
6th November 2013 - 22:46

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I find it really rather surprising at how many people will recount their personal anecdotes about bad cycling on a thread that is to do with a cyclist coming to an untimely end. It is more than a little distasteful in my humble opinion, even more so when we have no idea as to what happened and it smacks of prejudice.

posted by arfa [472 posts]
6th November 2013 - 23:01

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Sustransoftie wrote:
I'm sticking my neck on the line, but I actually agree with some of the things that Mr. BIG CAPS has said Worried

I've driven in lorries around London, and unfortunately, there are some absolute knobheads on bicycles. I've been cycling for over thirty plus years and the roads are now more congested than ever. Never mind London; it's the whole of GB. Sad

Me too. People haven't taken too kindly to his message, though I think that he's written it with a degree of diplomacy which would be deemed wanting by foreign office standards.

There is a lot assumption in blaming the tipper truck driver here, and perhaps it is best to wait and hear the judicial outcome. Given that they were pulling off from a traffic light I wonder if he came up behind the truck and unwittingly dropped into a blind spot.

Unfortunately this does sound very much like the sort of thing the Met Police were trying to warn cyclists about which was posted on here recently, a bit like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk4m-8

I can totally see how drivers are stressed out by cyclists constantly dropping into their blind spots (which Cycling Trucker sounds like). I think he has come on here with good intentions (to highlight that many cyclists put themselves in danger). If he wanted to tell us what a bunch of c**ts cyclists were he'd simply write that. But he is giving vent to his frustration.

What many seem to lose sight of on here is that no commercial driver of a HGV wants to lose his license, or be responsible for a cyclists death. As Cycling Trucker has said, most of the drivers have been absolved of wrong doing (and I know someone will chime in with their views of the justice system - but they can't all be wrong).

And, as many times as we talk about poor driving, we know there are as many poor cycling incidents. The main thing is drive and cycle as safely as we can.

Of course what has happened is very sad and regrettable. As others have pointed out the current infrastructure on that route is poor and the issues surrounding the uses of ASLs and HGVs are well known on this website. I just wish people would be a bit less reactionary in their condemnation. Hopefully this sad event will lead to more action to improve the CS2. But in the meantime keep cycling safely!

posted by Colin Peyresourde [1109 posts]
7th November 2013 - 0:54

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trucking cyclist wrote:

Remember as a cyclist you are using the road with no license registration or insurance and those of you who cycle in the road when there are perfectly safe cycle lanes available to you that have cost us the paying road user millions of pounds are a menace to society.

I have insurance twice, (1) for work and (2) thrown in free with a membership to LCC.

Everybody in the UK who pays any tax is paying for the roads. Are you aware that trucks are subsidised by the taxpayer who are paying for the damage the heavy vehicles are doing to the roads.

"there are perfectly safe cycle lanes" Where? Are they in car door zones? do they have chevrons or better separating the bikes from the rest of the traffic? Over the last few days I can't help notice the debris from the storm seems to have been swept from everywhere except the cycle lanes.

Here is one example of a cycle lane which makes one fear for their life because ignorant motor vehicle drivers think it's ok to drive right next to it, and it's one of the cycle lanes that's still full of debris: http://goo.gl/maps/ACn2F I think cycling organisations need to start thinking about bringing legal against councils who create such dangerous cycle lanes, I would gladly contribute towards such a legal campaign.

It's just a matter of time before vehicles without good visibility of what is around them are banned, it's absurd that some HGV drivers can't see what is directly in front of their vehicle.

posted by kie7077 [447 posts]
7th November 2013 - 1:21

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@John Stevenson

thanks for your input, its always welcome and very valid

whether cyclists have any reason to choose to stop at, or ignore a red light, does not matter?

jumping a red light is breaking the law regardess of the vehicle you are riding / driving, and I'd lump motorists into the same sentence as law breakers when they jump a red light.

on the commute I mentioned tonight, a motorist clearly jumped a red light next to Euston train station and nearly hit several cyclists who were moving forwards on the green light

he started swearing at the cyclists saying "don't jump the f*cking lights"; thankfully a nice infra-red CCTV camera with ANPR on that junction constantly being monitored by the Met Police as its a notorious junction, that guy will be getting a fixed penalty notice in Tuesday's post service.

for any cyclists jumping red lights, they have no number plates so they cannot be tracked by cameras, unlike motor vehicles? So how does anyone know who is causing accidents when there is not licensing for bicycles, and a bicycle may cause a motor vehicle accident by the stupidity / risk taking of the cyclist which then may impact on a motor vehicle and pedestrian seconds after the cyclists action

For the record I have been run over by 2 cyclists in Camden the past year, 1 jumping red light outside tube station knocking me to ground with bruised jaw and right arm, 1 on pavement next to canal knocking me against safety railing bruises on my back. it does happen, and I don't appreciate it.

posted by hampstead_bandit [123 posts]
7th November 2013 - 1:33

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Sustransoftie wrote:
I'm sticking my neck on the line, but I actually agree with some of the things that Mr. BIG CAPS has said Worried

I've driven in lorries around London, and unfortunately, there are some absolute knobheads on bicycles. I've been cycling for over thirty plus years and the roads are now more congested than ever. Never mind London; it's the whole of GB. Sad

I nearly ran over a girl on a fixed gear bike with no brakes. as she pulled out of a side street. When I pulled up at the lights she was on the phone with headphones in. She was totally oblivious to the world around her, so who's at fault now?

We can all point the finger at Beemer drivers, trucks, mopeds, pedestrians, 4x4s etc. but the public transport is a feckin' bad joke in all cities.

Whichever government is in "power" always screws up the roads regarding safety. The politicians are clueless and scared to make a decision, in case they lose votes.

So, to everyone on here, what do you expect and what will you do to prevent cyclists being killed?

I don't think that you're sticking your nexk out. You're making sensible well reasons points and I'm not sure there are many who would disagree with you. Some cyclists are dangerous, and do not seem to realise how vulnerable they are, or if they do, obviously don't value their life a great deal.

posted by md6 [156 posts]
7th November 2013 - 10:03

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John Stevenson wrote:

The stats show clearly that the majority of collisions between cyclists and motor vehicles are the fault of the driver, and no amount of ranting about cyclist behaviour will change that.

One thing these discussions always demonstrate to me is that the group that hates cyclists most isn't Audi drivers, cabbies or truckers, it's a small but vocal minority of my fellow cyclists. I find that rather sad.

I've never seen these stats. I'm not saying that I disagree with you, just that it's a very broad statement which is unsupported. The problem is the very nature of the stats though. People will only report a road collision if there is something worth reporting. Basically what I'm saying is that when a car and bike collide one is more damaged than the other, and the consequences are usually worse for the bike rider. If a bike causes an accident and doesn't do any damage to the car worth losing a no-claims discount and paying an excess the driver will not want to report it and the bike rider definitely won't.

I also think it weird that we have people on here who spend a lot of time trying to delineate cyclists as not being the same and then you come and lump everyone together as if we are a brotherhood or collective. We are not, nor are we blameless on the road. As a cyclist I am interested in having cycle routes which are safe, but I also realise that there is much behaviour out there which is not.

There are, even in the NL, places where bikes must use the road too. Infrastructure helps, but ultimately road safety is a craft and we must pass it on.

posted by Colin Peyresourde [1109 posts]
7th November 2013 - 10:46

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kie7077 wrote:
trucking cyclist wrote:

Remember as a cyclist you are using the road with no license registration or insurance and those of you who cycle in the road when there are perfectly safe cycle lanes available to you that have cost us the paying road user millions of pounds are a menace to society.

I have insurance twice, (1) for work and (2) thrown in free with a membership to LCC.

Everybody in the UK who pays any tax is paying for the roads. Are you aware that trucks are subsidised by the taxpayer who are paying for the damage the heavy vehicles are doing to the roads.

"there are perfectly safe cycle lanes" Where? Are they in car door zones? do they have chevrons or better separating the bikes from the rest of the traffic? Over the last few days I can't help notice the debris from the storm seems to have been swept from everywhere except the cycle lanes.

Here is one example of a cycle lane which makes one fear for their life because ignorant motor vehicle drivers think it's ok to drive right next to it, and it's one of the cycle lanes that's still full of debris: http://goo.gl/maps/ACn2F I think cycling organisations need to start thinking about bringing legal against councils who create such dangerous cycle lanes, I would gladly contribute towards such a legal campaign.

It's just a matter of time before vehicles without good visibility of what is around them are banned, it's absurd that some HGV drivers can't see what is directly in front of their vehicle.

Not sure if having insurance twice is helpful. Wouldn't each insurance company try to palm off the costs to the other?

posted by nod [60 posts]
7th November 2013 - 11:11

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zanf wrote:
nod wrote:
When you're in an ASL it's because the traffic has stopped at the lights. I don't think anybody would sit in an ASL while the traffic is fast moving. Perhaps that's where you're going wrong!

Are you that dumb or think that being facetious is really clever?

Go and look at ASL's and you'll see that despite being across the width of the road, cyclists still tend to stay on the lefthand side and in the gutter.

Don't know what your problem is or why you come across as so angry, but surely a simple solution is to get out of the gutter and use the middle of the box? That way you're more visible and cars won't zoom passed you.

Maybe the box isn't the best in the world, but what you're describing sounds like user error to me.

Call it facetious if you want. I call it common sense.

posted by nod [60 posts]
7th November 2013 - 11:20

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nod wrote:

Not sure if having insurance twice is helpful. Wouldn't each insurance company try to palm off the costs to the other?

If anything happened during working hours, Work would sort things out via their insurance, out of work hours I'd use the personal insurance.

posted by kie7077 [447 posts]
7th November 2013 - 21:37

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