[the little onion]

So here’s an odd one. Just posting it here for any advice, though as a CyclingUK member, I’ll also contact them to hear their view.

 

I was close passed in a really bad way a while back – basically, nearly squeezed between a barrier and a badly driven car. During the process, I “dropped the f-bomb” four times. I submitted the footage to the police, including an apologetic note for my language in the footage. The police are taking it further with the driver, apparently, but the driver has now complained that I was using foul and abusive language, and thus a public order offence. I’m now going to be interviewed under caution for a public order offence!

 

I’ve sent some footage to the police before which has included some fruity language, but never had anything like this before. Frankly, the whole thing is embarrasing that this has been taken this far. Surely there is no public interest in pursuing someone who lets their language standards dropped when narrowly escaping a serious road incident?

 

Any thoughts or advice welcome.

Topic

[Hirsute]

Hahah no – I’m now wondering

Hahah no – I’m now wondering if it was in Fake Heroes about Douglas Bader. It was ! Allegedly to a bunch of school girls.

[hawkinspeter]

Hirsute wrote:

Pretty sure that’s in a film too, but can’t remember (thought it might be number 24 but didn’t seem to be).

I think it was originally Stan Boardman’s joke, or were you thinking of “Meet The Fockers”?

[Rendel Harris]

Hirsute wrote:

Pretty sure that’s in a film too, but can’t remember (thought it might be number 24 but didn’t seem to be).

I always heard it told as being Douglas Bader receiving a medal from the king, telling the same story with the king saying, “It’s quite a plane, that Focker, isn’t it?” “Yes it is your majesty but these fuckers were in Messerschmitts…”

[Hirsute]

Pretty sure that’s in a film

Pretty sure that’s in a film too, but can’t remember (thought it might be number 24 but didn’t seem to be).

[hawkinspeter]

Rendel Harris wrote:

Can’t resist another anecdote that shows that sometimes you might think you’ve caused offence but…I was nearly hit by a driver who decided they are couldn’t wait for me to exit a funnel between parked cars and so drove up it, flicking my hand with their wing mirror (no camera that day, unfortunately). We had what one might describe as a full and frank exchange of views…after they had driven off I noticed an elderly lady standing on the pavement who had obviously been watching us. I called out, “Sorry about the language!” and she replied in the most perfect cut glass Kensington accent, “Don’t worry dear, if I were you I’d have broken the fucker’s window!”

An RAF veteran is giving a talk about the war to a class of school children and was trying to explain what a typical mission would be like.

“So there I was, escorting the bombers to their target, when out of the blue we were attacked by a bunch of Fokkers. There were about 20 of these Fokkers. One took out my buddy, but I managed to shoot the Fokker down. Then one was on my tail and I coukdn’t shake the Fokker, but my pal took care of him. Then I took out two more of the Fokkers…”

The teacher interupts “Children I should explain, the Fokker was a type of figher airplane used by the German Air Force to stop the RAF bombers and their escorts.”

“Yes, but these Fokkers were Messerschmitts!”

[Rendel Harris]

Can’t resist another anecdote

Can’t resist another anecdote that shows that sometimes you might think you’ve caused offence but…I was nearly hit by a driver who decided they are couldn’t wait for me to exit a funnel between parked cars and so drove up it, flicking my hand with their wing mirror (no camera that day, unfortunately). We had what one might describe as a full and frank exchange of views…after they had driven off I noticed an elderly lady standing on the pavement who had obviously been watching us. I called out, “Sorry about the language!” and she replied in the most perfect cut glass Kensington accent, “Don’t worry dear, if I were you I’d have broken the fucker’s window!”

[brooksby]

hawkinspeter wrote:

Hirsute wrote:

But they still have to demonstrate that is was 

” within the hearing or sight of a person “likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby”. “

Also there are defences listed to the charge.

Yes. A possible defence is that you can prove that you had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress.

Exactrly.  The motorist certainly can’t claim to be such a person, given their own behaviour.

[hawkinspeter]

Hirsute wrote:

But they still have to demonstrate that is was 

” within the hearing or sight of a person “likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby”. “

Also there are defences listed to the charge.

Yes. A possible defence is that you can prove that you had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress.

[hawkinspeter]

David9694 wrote:

“That his conduct was reasonable” seems pretty key to me. 

I agree – if you hit your thumb with a hammer or nearly get hit by a driver, then swearing seems reasonable to me. If you’re right outside a school or convent at the time, then I can see that police might want you to curb your language, but prosecution would surely be reserved for continual, abusive swearing even when asked to stop.

[Hirsute]

But they still have to

But they still have to demonstrate that is was 

” within the hearing or sight of a person “likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby”. “

Also there are defences listed to the charge.

[David9694]

That his conduct was

“That his conduct was reasonable” seems pretty key to me. 

[Rendel Harris]

Interesting. Can it be argued

Interesting. Can it be argued (I mean obviously it can, but would it be accepted as an argument in law) that to start with it is “reasonable” to swear at somebody who just nearly hit you and secondly that it is “reasonable” to swear back at somebody who has sworn at you? Obviously there is a question of interpretation, but I will reprise a story I’ve told him here before: I was in court for the prosecution of a driver who switched lanes straight into my path without looking or indicating and very nearly sideswiped me. When the video was shown in court, the magistrate said to me, “I can’t quite hear what that is you shouted?”

Somewhat embarrassed, I replied, “I’d rather not say.”

“We’re all adults here, just state what you shouted please.”

“You fucking cunt.”

“I see. Thank you.”

The driver was fined £600-odd with three points on their licence and a six-month ban under the totting-up procedure; that was the sole reference to my language in the whole process despite the fact that the video would have been viewed by the police, the CPS and others.

[hawkinspeter]

Rendel Harris wrote:

 

Whatever one thinks of swearing the point is the police have to prove that you were causing someone harassment, alarm or distress

Not quite, as I understand it:

Section 5 makes it an offence to use “threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour” or to display “any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting” within the hearing or sight of a person “likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby”. The offence does not depend on harassment, alarm or distress actually having been caused in the particular case.

It is a defence for a person accused of this offence if he (or she) can prove:

• that he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress;
• that he was inside a dwelling and had no reason to believe that the words, behaviour, writing, signs, or other visible representation would be heard or seen by a person outside that or any other dwelling; or
• that his conduct was reasonable.

A person is guilty of an offence under section 5 only if

• he intends his words or behaviour to be (or is aware that it may be) threatening, abusive or insulting; or
• if he intends his behaviour to be (or is aware that it may be) disorderly.

The police can arrest a person without a warrant if he (or she) fails to heed a warning to stop the conduct in question. The maximum penalty is a £1,000 fine.

(from https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05760/SN05760.pdf)

[Rendel Harris]

the little onion wrote:

I see people’s point about the later incidence of swearing. I agree that this might be seen as childish etc if it were a ‘normal’ close pass. 

Whatever one thinks of swearing the point is the police have to prove that you were causing someone harassment, alarm or distress; if you’re dinging back-and-forth with someone who’s swearing at you I can’t see the harassment, or at least it’s a six and two threes with them harassing you just as much as vice versa, and they clearly find swearing acceptable as they are doing it themselves so how can it cause them alarm or distress? As I said elsewhere but I think it will have now been deleted as it was a response to the troll, this is so clearly a case where if a police officer had been present they would’ve just told both of you to pack it in and go about your business, no way would they have made an arrest and pressed a charge on the basis of what is seen in your video. At a time when the courts are so backlogged that the police are giving out cautions even for physical assault and “minor” sexual offences, and it can take several years for rape cases to come to trial, severely adding to the trauma for victims, it’s outrageous that anyone could think that putting you on trial for this minor kerfuffle is a good use of police, prosecutor and court time.

[the little onion]

I nominally have a court date

I nominally have a court date. Sigh…. so it might well go all the way.

I will keep people updated.

I see people’s point about the later incidence of swearing. I agree that this might be seen as childish etc if it were a ‘normal’ close pass. My point, as made to the police, that this was not ‘normal’ but deliberate act of violence. The driver was filming me as she made the close pass. I genuinely feared for my life, and I didn’t want her to accelarate at me again, once I got stopped by traffic. The fact that she wound down her window to swear at me before the second batch of my swearing only raised my fears that she was deliberately trying to hit me. 

[Author]

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