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Trying to keep up with my friends on road bikes

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  • January 3, 2019 at 5:54 pm #29245
    Huckfinn

    Having ridden a 3x mtb for quite a while (well over 5 years….) I’m on the market for a gravel/cx one.

    I tried some and, while I’m definitely after a light carbon frame bike, the biggest difference I noticed came from the gears. And here’s the point: as I understand it, many a road bike have a 52-36 crankset and 11-28 cassette. This gives you a ratio of 4.72/1.28 which in gear/inches translates as 35.8-132.16 ({Gear/Inches} =wheel diameter in inches X n° of teeth in front chainring divided by n° of teeth in rear sprocket}}…if I understand it right. Great for speeding, not so when climbing (I live in the South of France and climbing cannot be avoided).

    I noticed that, for example (similar price bracket):

    1)The lovely White Essex One has a: 44 (1x) & 10-42cassette= 4.4/1.04 , i.e. gear/inches:  29.2 – 123.2

    2)The new Giant Revolt Advanced2: 48-32   & 11-34cassette = 4.36/0.94, i.e. gear/inches: 26.3- 122.1 

    3)The new Orro Terra C Adventure:   48-32       11-30                  = 4.36/1.06                                    29.7- 122.1

    and so on…

    Am I doing it right? Because from this it appears that, for ex, the n°2 climbs more easily and it is not that much “slower” when speeding.. 

    Basically: can anyone advise on a carbon frame bike, in this price bracket, that I can (also) take offroad on steep paths but that would allow me to keep up with my friends on road bikes….?

    For reference, my old Giant 3x mtb: 42-22         11-30                 = 3.81/0.73                                    19 – 99.1 (insanely easy for climbing but makes me pedal like crazy when speeding on flat asphalt road…!!).

    Any comment would be appreciated!

     

    Huck.

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  • January 4, 2019 at 1:25 pm #933593
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    Daveyraveygravey
    alansmurphy wrote:
    I’m also of the camp that doesn’t put too much weight on the 53/11 gearing. How much of our cycling life do we spend spinning out, i’d suggest not much. Having closer ratios in the middle of the cog and the more comfortable climbing gears will be much more efficient over a reasonably long ride…

     

    I don’t think this argument stacks up, at least in my experience.  Let’s go back to the good old days when all you had to choose was a standard or compact chainset, say 10 years ago! Whilst you have to be pretty far up the ability ladder to spin out a 53/11 regularly, a 50/11 is much easier to run out of gears with.  I’m not talking about screaming down a 20% slope at over 50 mph, I’m talking about maybe a 5% slope with a bit of tail wind.  Or a gentler slope but riding in a bunch; whenever I have ridden a compact I have been frustrated by running out of gears at speed more often than running out of gears climbing.  

    I think the OP’s question might be redundant though.  My cycling buddies all have road bikes, cx bikes and mtbs.  I don’t have a cx, just a road bike and an mtb; I now won’t go with them when they take the cx bikes out, because I have to take the mtb and I know I won’t be able to keep up.  I’ll try for 60 minutes or maybe 90, but at some point the greater effort required to move the mtb on a road or smooth off road trail will wear me out before them. It’s a good challenge and workout initially but eventually you get tired.  I haven’t tried the comparison of road bikes v cx bikes but I bet the road bike will require less effort than the cx bike for the same distance covered.

    Road bikes are optimised to go fast on roads, they are (just) strong enough to take most potholes whilst being light, the tyres are just grippy enough in most conditions to keep you upright, whilst being light, the brakes are good enough to stop you whilst being light.  The gears are chosen to give you a compromise between getting up steep hills and maintaining a good average speed on the flat.  

    MTBs are optimised for off roading, they aren’t as light, the brakes are stronger, you sit in a different position, the wheels and tyres are heavier, wider, grippier.  The gears are much more biased to climbing in situations where you could have a lot less grip than a road bike.

    CX/gravel/adventure bikes are a compromise between the two above. They can mix some road riding and some gravel riding, but at the extremes of either they just won’t be as good.

    January 4, 2019 at 1:00 pm #933591
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    alansmurphy

    I’m also of the camp that

    I’m also of the camp that doesn’t put too much weight on the 53/11 gearing. How much of our cycling life do we spend spinning out, i’d suggest not much. Having closer ratios in the middle of the cog and the more comfortable climbing gears will be much more efficient over a reasonably long ride…

    January 4, 2019 at 12:04 pm #933589
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    Griff500
    CXR94Di2 wrote:
    Once over 30mph on a descent, you’re in comfortable freewheeling territory” – no you’re not on a 3% descent. eg Gorge de la Nesque, 15km @ 2,5% average. If I had a higher gear than 52/11 I’d use it.

    Ive ridden Gorge de la Nesque both ways.  The desecnt is not super fast because of lots of blind bends, until the latter part where it staightens outs a bit. 

    La  Nesque is my back yard. From the viewpoint on the North side, travelling West down to Auzon, there are only a couple of blind bends, for much of the route you can see the road snaking down the valley ahead of you. The South side is more twisty.

    Notwisthstanding that, your comment “once over 30mph on a descent, you’re in comfortable freewheeling territory” doesn’t make sense on long shallow gradients.  If you can generate power through the crank at 110 rpm, that’s fine. I can’t.  

    January 4, 2019 at 11:41 am #933587
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    CXR94Di2

    Once over 30mph on a descent,

    Once over 30mph on a descent, you’re in comfortable freewheeling territory” – no you’re not on a 3% descent. eg Gorge de la Nesque, 15km @ 2,5% average. If I had a higher gear than 52/11 I’d use it.

    Ive ridden Gorge de la Nesque both ways.  The desecnt is not super fast because of lots of blind bends, until the latter part where it staightens outs a bit.  I descended on my bike which had 42 outer ring and was able to keep up with compact chainset riders, albeit I was using a higher cadence.  Now with my 48 outer chainring, I out run most riders with compacts, being a bigger rider. 

     

    @Huckfin  I use a 11/32 for general riding and when I go to the mountains I use 11-40.  Im a heavyweight rider@95KG.  My preferred method to ride is spinning usually above 90rpm even on alpine climbs like Ventoux etc.

     

     

    January 4, 2019 at 11:38 am #933585
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    Griff500
    Huckfinn wrote:
     

    Griff500: I’m almost your age. (Where do you live exactly..? I’m in Beausoleil)

    The Luberon. (A long way from you)

     

    January 4, 2019 at 11:16 am #933583
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    Huckfinn

    Wow!

    Wow!

    Thank you all for the feedback!!

    Now, in good order, starting from the last comment:

    @rdmp2: A cx/gravel will certainly be lighter than my 13kg mtb! 48/32, 11/32 seems fine to me when with my “roadie friends”. But I also like to take detours offroad & uphill and leave them on the tarmac. And here’s when I would need an 11/34 (or more)….

    @CXR94Di2 : again, 48/11 sounds fine. But what cassette do I pair the 48 with (as per above..?)

    @AKH : I’ll have a very good look at your calculator tonight when back from work. So far never had problem keeping up with roadies uphill (I’m actually often ahead of the pack).. With my mtb , downhill is the tricky part…

    Griff500: I’m almost your age. (Where do you live exactly..? I’m in Beausoleil) I currently use semi-slicks. As I said I think 48-11 is fine. Obviously 50-11 would be better. The problem is finding a bike (cx or gravel, doesn’t matter how you call them) that allows me to climb almost as well as with my mtb. Can’t be “as well”, of course, ’cause I also have 26″ wheels, so basically that’s the reason I can go as low as 19 gear/inches. By the way, I never need to go this low…

    @CXR94Di2 : I’m 59, 186cm, 75kg.

    I come from a corner of Northern Italy where almost everybody (young, old, male or female) uses a bike. For me cycling is second nature. As a result I can keep up with/stay ahead of on my 26″ mtb much younger cyclists on fancy carbon road bikes…. No issue there. But simply, as I’m looking for a new bike, my thoughts were of getting something that would allow me to do both on road (80%) and off. I’m not expecting to find one as “fast” on road and at the same time as “agile” off as a road/mtb one……. BUT: which bike would get me the closest? The Orro, the Whyte, the Revolt….? Any other model?

     

    January 4, 2019 at 11:08 am #933581
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    Griff500

     or anything less than 50-34

    CXR94Di2 wrote:
     or anything less than 50-34 front, and you aint going to keep up with your friends on road bikes as you put it. 

    How fast do you think he needs to go.  Once over 30mph on a descent, you’re in comfortable freewheeling territory. If you want to push the speed along then, 100 rpm on a 48-11 is 35mph, remember freewheeling :)

     

    Presumably fast enough to keep up with his mates. All I can do is speak from experience. Granted, I am a below average cadence rider, being much happier grinding up a hill at 75rpm than at 100. My area (The Vaucluse), is characterised by long grinding ascents followed by long sweeping descents. Despite my age (60), I set upper quartile Strava times on those long climbs and wait for my mates at the top, and lower quartile times on descents where we are all spinning out and they wait for me at the bottom! “Once over 30mph on a descent, you’re in comfortable freewheeling territory” – no you’re not on a 3% descent. eg Gorge de la Nesque, 15km @ 2,5% average. If I had a higher gear than 52/11 I’d use it.

    January 4, 2019 at 10:42 am #933579
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    rdmp2

    Most road bikes are over
    Most road bikes are over geared. Honestly how often are you pedalling hard in 50×11? A road /cx/gravel bike will be faster than your mtb as it will give a more aerodynamic position (for flat /down) and maybe lighter weight (for going up). Also faster tyres, although your mtb could take these also. My gravel bike with 48/32 11-32 gearing and semi slicks has no trouble keeping up with my roadie friends (unless your friends are racers)

    January 4, 2019 at 9:28 am #933577
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    CXR94Di2

     or anything less than 50-34

     or anything less than 50-34 front, and you aint going to keep up with your friends on road bikes as you put it. 

    How fast do you think he needs to go.  Once over 30mph on a descent, you’re in comfortable freewheeling territory. If you want to push the speed along then, 100 rpm on a 48-11 is 35mph, remember freewheeling 🙂

    If you want to to go very fast, which takes huge amount of power and cadence-remember going downhill freewheeling. 48*11 @145rpm is ~51mph- I know, I achieved this in Tenerife albeit very briefly:D

     

    So speed comparison for you to ponder @100 rpm(lets say slight decline or flat terrain)

    48*11=34.3mph

    50*11=35.8mph

    53*11=37.9mph

    3.6mph difference

    I know I cant sustain 32mph on a flat road on a normal road bike, I have 300W +FTP

    January 4, 2019 at 9:22 am #933575
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    AKH

    This is by far the best gear

    This is by far the best gear calculator I’ve found online. I particularly like the visuals and the option to compare two setups.

     

    http://www.gear-calculator.com/

     

    When it comes to going uphill, the power required is a function of your mass, the slope, and the speed you go up it (basically what’s your vertical speed and mass). You can drop into a lower gear, which will mean you can increase your cadence to a (more) comfortable level, but if your friends are simply way lighter or more powerful riders, it won’t help. It might be easier to maintain a certain power at 90 rpm than say 50 rpm, but the power to get you up 500m of climbing in X number of minutes is the same.

    January 4, 2019 at 9:09 am #933573
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    Griff500

    You don’t mention tyres. I

    You don’t mention tyres. I moved from MTB to road 5 years ago, and coincidentally live in the South of France. I found that the simple act of moving from knobbly tyres to slicks made a huge difference in ability to make rapid progress on the road. I don’t however use tyres on the road which I would also want to use on gravel. (I am on 25mm GP4000).

    In terms of gearing, I am on the 52-36, 11-28 setup you quote, and at the age of 60, that will get me up any hill I am likely to encounter, including Ventoux (or some shorter, hills of close to 20%), at a fairly decent speed. When it comes to cassette replacement however, I will probably go to 11-30 next time. But to be honest, any lower than that 11-32, or anything less than 50-34 front, and you aint going to keep up with your friends on road bikes as you put it. 

     

    January 4, 2019 at 7:45 am #933571
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    CXR94Di2

    A couple of questions, how

    A few questions, how old, weight, how fast a speed you can maintain?   

    here are some speed figures in MPH for different gear ratios for my road bike, it uses a triple crankset 48/36/26. Ive included rpm/cadence

     

       rpm    80       85      90       95      100     105     110

    26×40   4.07    4.32   4.58   4.83     5.09    5.34    5.59 —  (min gearing mountains)

    26×32   5.07    5.39   5.70    6.02    6.34   6.65    6.97

    36×12  18.78  19.95  21.12  22.30  23.47 24.65  25.82

    48×11  27.29   29.00 30.70  32.41  34.11 35.82  37.52

    January 3, 2019 at 11:44 pm #933569
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    Stef Marazzi

    Not riddem the Giant, but

    Not ridden the Giant, but mates have the Orro and Whyte and they keep up absolutely no problem with road bikes. It’s all about the legs , heart, lungs and fitness. Tuck in and get low on the bars on the downhills and you’ll be fine.

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