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Shimano, why no 1x!?

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  • June 11, 2018 at 9:41 pm #28612
    Canyon48

    Why is Shimano taking so long to roll out 1x for CX/gravel/road?

    There’s clear demand for it, the number of people running DIY 1x setups. I’d certainly adopt 1x on my TT bike and a CX bike (when I get one!).

    There’s the usual rubbish about the gear range being too small, the gear jumps too big and the chain line not being optimal – but these really have no effect when you consider how they are used.

    My TT bike, for example, I only ever use the 52t big ring with an 11-28 (ok, I used the little rin when I was rolling round a car park waiting for my mates to arrive), a wide range of gearing isn’t needed, so losing the lower gears doesn’t matter. Conversely, for a CX bike (when I had one), I was rarely topping 30mph (and when I did it was usually downhill on a road getting to or from some CX terrain) – so any gearing allowing you to go above 35mph can be dropped – the resulting gear jumps can be kept more or less the same as a 2x setup.

    And don’t for a minute think I’m suggesting doing away with 2x setups completely – definitely not! I have 52/36 11-28 on my Canyon and I use every gear pretty much every ride, means I can comfortably cycle between speeds of 6mph to 45mph without grinding or spinning too much. Similarly, the 50/34 11-32 on my Whyte is great for endurance riding and commuting, where speeds tend to be a little lower (gives me a range of 5 mph to 43 mph).

    Am I alone in wishing Shimano would bring 1x to CX/road? For now, the Wolftooth conversion will suffice my planned CX build (and maybe my TT bike!).

     

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  • June 15, 2018 at 12:22 pm #921443
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    Mungecrundle
    Daveyraveygravey wrote:
    David Arthur @davearthur wrote:

    If you can’t manage a front and rear shifter should you be riding on the road?!

    Yeah, more of this elitist nonsense. Nice one

    I’ve spotted a gap in the market, going to start selling bikes with only one pedal.  You know, less maintenance, less weight, easier to operate…kiss

     

    The Chinese Flying Pigeon bicycle company have pretty much been making the same model since 1950. I suggest that if you are averse to new ideas, development and change, that you get yourself one of these. Cheap, robust, last you a lifetime and apart from being quite cool and the associated risk of being labelled a hipster, no-one is going to accuse you of being a sucker for whatever new and spangly tech other component manufacturers are dangling before you.

     

    June 15, 2018 at 12:06 pm #921441
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    PRSboy

    It would be interesting if

    It would be interesting if Di2 etc could provide data on what gears riders tend to use.

    In my case, where my local terrain is rolling, I reckon I use maybe five gears, of which one predominantly.  1x would be ideal for me.

    June 15, 2018 at 11:56 am #921439
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    Daveyraveygravey

    David Arthur @davearthur

    David Arthur @davearthur wrote:

    If you can’t manage a front and rear shifter should you be riding on the road?!

    Yeah, more of this elitist nonsense. Nice one

    I’ve spotted a gap in the market, going to start selling bikes with only one pedal.  You know, less maintenance, less weight, easier to operate…kiss

    June 15, 2018 at 7:12 am #921437
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    Jimthebikeguy.com

    Someone really lit a fire
    Someone really lit a fire here. Obviously, its all a marketing bs conspiracy, and I dont like it so none of you are allowed to either, and while we are at it, disc brakes are evil and so are tubeless tires. Now where’s my tinfoil hat.

    ..as for the ‘if you cant handle a front mech you shouldnt be on the road’ crap, my little girl cant use a bike with 2 mechs. She is 7, but anyway, i had better stop her from riding a bike forthwith to avoid upsetting the trolls.

    June 13, 2018 at 7:24 pm #921435
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    David Arthur @davearthur

    If you can’t manage a front

    If you can’t manage a front and rear shifter should you be riding on the road?!

    Yeah, more of this elitist nonsense. Nice one

    June 13, 2018 at 7:15 pm #921433
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    Canyon48
    kevvjj wrote:
     I have a 3x on my MTB, a 2x on my road bike and a 1x on my adventure bike. They all work beautifully. I’m not a racer and coudn’t care less if my cadence change causes me to slow down a little because of the so called gap in ratios. As for ‘marketing bs’… it’s called free choice – the last time I looked there was no law that said you have to buy the latest “new and fickle market” stuff.

    One thing is for sure, the big S are researching and developing a 1x system as we write.

    +1 for this.

    All have their purpose.

    And agreed, I want more choice. I’ve made the choice to specify a 1x system for my next build based on analysis of velocity and cadence distributions. I also have all the bits, other than a wolftooth narrow-wide chainring. Incidentally, I also have all the bits for a 2x, but to be perfectly honest, I like the lack of concern about shifting at the front end that 1x brings.

    As it is, if you don’t want 1x, don’t buy it! Just rejoice in the fact that we have more gearing options now than we’ve ever had 🙂

    June 13, 2018 at 7:08 pm #921431
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    cyclisto

    If I would complain to
    If I would complain to shimano, I would ask for more 3x chainsets. We love our knees.

    June 13, 2018 at 7:05 pm #921429
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    Canyon48
    Daveyraveygravey wrote:
    As Shimano are arguably the no1 supplier of drive train kit, maybe they don’t need to pander to this new and fickle market? 

    I think half by is a niche market.  And for me, a niche market is TT bikes and cx bikes.  I have one road bike and one mountain bike, and I want them to have proper transmissions that can cope with whatever I throw at them.  I want the road bike to climb steep hills at maybe less than 5 mph, and I want to be able to pedal it at over 40 mph.  I would argue  the case for a triple chainset with a nice close ratio cassette as being the best possible transmission, although I haven’t found a triple that has a wider range than available doubles.  You use the front shifter for big changes and the rear one to fine tune the cadence you want. 

    I want my mountain bike to climb shitty muddy tree-root ridden flinty chalky trails in the South Downs at less than walking pace, and I want to be able to pedal it along roads between trails.  

    I just don’t get the claims of simplicity either.  If you can’t manage a front and rear shifter should you be riding on the road?!  It’s just marketing bollocks, in my opnion, another way to get people to part with their cash. 

    Now if I was a pro, and could ride  a 54 tooth chainring on a TT bike, or if I was racing cx, maybe it makes a little more sense.

    Certainly no arguing about it, they are the biggest supplier of groupsets!

    I never suggested getting rid of 2x and I certainly wouldn’t part with the 52-36 11-28 on my road.  bike.

    There’s a lot of bikes out there using 1x currently and I’ve seen plenty of commuter bikes with 1×11, using Shimano gears with a generic 1x crankset.

    I’m just mildly surprised Shimano don’t even manufacture their own 1x specific chainrings to go with their existing cranks – they wouldn’t even have to develop a new groupset. If they did this, they could easily swallow up the 1x market from Sram, seeing as the Sram groupsets seem expensive!

    June 13, 2018 at 6:13 pm #921427
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    Anonymous

     I have a 3x on my MTB, a 2x

     I have a 3x on my MTB, a 2x on my road bike and a 1x on my adventure bike. They all work beautifully. I’m not a racer and coudn’t care less if my cadence change causes me to slow down a little because of the so called gap in ratios. As for ‘marketing bs’… it’s called free choice – the last time I looked there was no law that said you have to buy the latest “new and fickle market” stuff.

    One thing is for sure, the big S are researching and developing a 1x system as we write.

    June 13, 2018 at 5:23 pm #921425
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    fukawitribe

    Yeah – fucking choice  – it’s

    Yeah – fucking choice  – it’s a bitch.

    June 13, 2018 at 5:17 pm #921423
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    Daveyraveygravey

    As Shimano are arguably the

    As Shimano are arguably the no1 supplier of drive train kit, maybe they don’t need to pander to this new and fickle market? 

    I think half by is a niche market.  And for me, a niche market is TT bikes and cx bikes.  I have one road bike and one mountain bike, and I want them to have proper transmissions that can cope with whatever I throw at them.  I want the road bike to climb steep hills at maybe less than 5 mph, and I want to be able to pedal it at over 40 mph.  I would argue  the case for a triple chainset with a nice close ratio cassette as being the best possible transmission, although I haven’t found a triple that has a wider range than available doubles.  You use the front shifter for big changes and the rear one to fine tune the cadence you want. 

    I want my mountain bike to climb shitty muddy tree-root ridden flinty chalky trails in the South Downs at less than walking pace, and I want to be able to pedal it along roads between trails.  

    I just don’t get the claims of simplicity either.  If you can’t manage a front and rear shifter should you be riding on the road?!  It’s just marketing bollocks, in my opnion, another way to get people to part with their cash. 

    Now if I was a pro, and could ride  a 54 tooth chainring on a TT bike, or if I was racing cx, maybe it makes a little more sense.

    June 13, 2018 at 7:31 am #921421
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    Canyon48
    BehindTheBikesheds wrote:
    I don’t see the point, the jumps between ratios are massive, transitioning between terrain/gradient/increasing speed is made more difficult with those bigger jumps. It’s a ‘solution’ to a problem that did not nor does not exist.

    Just because it might give you the range doesn’t mean it’s anywhere near as effective, but you know, trends and all tht crap where it’s manufacturers creating the BS and the feeble of mind think they just gots to have it when essentially they’re downgrading or spending cash for no improvement, indeed a 1x system is more expensive for less components, no wonder companies want to sell it!

    If you don’t see the point, you don’t need to buy it – I would have thought that more options and more tech are only good for the road bike industry.

    The jumps between the ratios are not significantly larger (or no larger) than a 2x system, assuming the gear range is much smaller – which is fine for cyclocross and TT. In fact, if I set up my TT bike with a 1x system using a 40t chainring with an 11-28 (this would give me a comfortable speed range between 7 mph and 35 mph), the gear ratio jumps are 25% smaller than using my current 2x…

    The average gear jump for a 42 x 11-34 is the same as for a 46/36 x 11-28 (for all but the 11t jump) and you only lose 2mph at the top end (but the top speed is still over 35mph),

    I’m not sure how 1x can be called less effective, Wout Van Aert and Sven Nys have won plenty of CX races on 1x setups and team Aqua Blue have ridden the 3T Strada to road race wins.

    Currently, the 1x system isn’t more expensive than 2x, Sram Force 1 is (only just) cheaper than Sram Force 22. Moreover, Shimano M7000 SLX 1×11 is only £350, far cheaper than ANY 11 speed groupset. I would hope if Shimano began to produce 1x for CX/road, it’d bring the cost down – currently, Sram more or less has a monopoly.

    As I said, I wouldn’t switch my 2x on my road bike as the speed range is far greater! I intend to build up a cross bike 1x because, having collated my speed and RPM distributions of my cross rides, a 1x system covers all the speeds I cycle at without any larger gear jumps. 

    So the ratios aren’t larger, the gearing isn’t less effective and it doesn’t cost any more, surely?

    June 13, 2018 at 4:46 am #921419
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    Anonymous

    I don’t see the point, the

    I don’t see the point, the jumps between ratios are massive, transitioning between terrain/gradient/increasing speed is made more difficult with those bigger jumps. It’s a ‘solution’ to a problem that did not nor does not exist.

    Just because it might give you the range doesn’t mean it’s anywhere near as effective, but you know, trends and all tht crap where it’s manufacturers creating the BS and the feeble of mind think they just gots to have it when essentially they’re downgrading or spending cash for no improvement, indeed a 1x system is more expensive for less components, no wonder companies want to sell it!

    June 12, 2018 at 10:20 am #921417
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    Canyon48
    CXR94Di2 wrote:
    You can do it with a m8000 single sprocket crank and this https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/96-bcd-4-arm/?teeth=46

    46t will be plenty to get max speed of 35mph, I know my 44t tops out at 32mph at about 105rpm

    Ooooh, didn’t think about that, cheers! I think I’ll stick with he wolftooth conversion (when I get round to it), looks better IMO.

    I created a gear/speed/cadence calculator based on my riding style and speeds using StravistiX, really useful as it shows the distribution of speeds and cadence.

    On my road bike I have an RPM range (normally distributed) between about 60 and 120 RPM, on my TT bike the distribution is much much closer, between 80 and 100. For the CX riding I have done the RPM distribution is similar to road – but the speed distribution is smaller, and the max speed only 30-35mph.

    Based on that, a 40t up front with 11-34 covers all the speeds and RPM I ride at for CX.

    June 12, 2018 at 7:15 am #921415
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    CXR94Di2

    You can do it with a m8000

    You can do it with a m8000 single sprocket crank and this https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/96-bcd-4-arm/?teeth=46

    46t will be plenty to get max speed of 35mph, I know my 44t tops out at 32mph at about 105rpm

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