Road tubeless tyre – seating issues

KiwiMike wrote:

rogermerriman wrote:

It’s both low and high pressures, at low pressures tyres may burp, but equally at higher pressures you can blow a tyre off the rim, with tubes, the tube will hold it in place. tubess is relying on rim/bead, so the point is lower, hence most gravel/wide road tyres have fairly modest max pressure limits.

At a pressure low enough for a road or even CX tyre to burp, you’re talking sub-10psi. Ridiculously-low.

To blow off a rim, you’re talking 70+ PSI with a crap tyre-rim fit – basically too high for decent sizes. Really there’s no point going tubeless with less than 28mm, because it needs to be too hard to maintain less than 15% tyre drop and you loose all the nice supple benefits.

Compass Cycles say their tubeless shouldn’t be run at more than 60psi – as they don’t do less than 35mm in tubeless, that’s a rider-bike weight limit of around 120kg – or in other words, heavy AF. Noting you *can* go harder, but should always go maybe 10-20% PSI higher for a few days to make sure your tyre-rim combo can keep things mounted. The actual pressure limit on the tyres is 75.

 

Anyway, the point was you don’t *need* a ‘tubeless-specific’ rim. 

Its not really about need more if it’s wise/your prepared to fiddle/take the risk.

Tubeless rims are a slightly different shape, to help keep the bead in place, clearly that doesn’t mean you need them.

This said, if you use non tubless rims, coupled with rims/tyres do differ in size, it propably will work, but it is a bodge, though granted tyres seem to be better which is reducing it.

Its worth noting that the upper limit that the tyre will blow off, for 35mm ish tyres is rather lower than one might imagine, for tubless.

KiwiMike wrote:

rogermerriman wrote:

tyres are the most important, part yes. And lots of folks at least online seem to have success with Converting their rim, this said tubless rims do have (generally) minor shape changes to help keep the tyre in place, seems to still be a bit of a random which rim/tyres will getto and which will not, or at least with out a lot of work. Gravel/bridleways etc will generally require quite a bit more pressure than, CX racing and on the road yet another jump up. At those pressures you’d need to be very sure of your getto rims.

er…it’s the reverse, actually there Roger, if I have understood your comment correctly. Having a bead seat ‘barb’ or lip that holds the tyre bead in place is more important at lower pressures, where the tyre is shifting about much more on the rim whilst cornering. This ultimately manifests itslef in ‘burping’, where the tyre bead is pulled away from the rim wall and into the centre channel, thereby opening a gap that allows air to escape. I haven’t had this happen to me in a road or gravel context, ever, nor have I met anyone who has. 

Burping happens mostly with very large volume MTB tyres run at single-digit PSI pressures, in extreme off-road situations. Or in low-pressure CX applications where a combination of a tall rim wall and very tight bead mean that once installed, the fit of the bead to rim seat is not that tight. This can be improved by adding layers of tape.

Road/gravel setups – rim width, forces exerted, pressures etc – make burping borderline-impossible to occur. You’d have to be running stupidly-low pressures for it to happen, which would badly-impact handling long before you could put it into a burping scenario.

It’s both low and high pressures, at low pressures tyres may burp, but equally at higher pressures you can blow a tyre off the rim, with tubes, the tube will hold it in place. tubess is relying on rim/bead, so the point is lower, hence most gravel/wide road tyres have fairly modest max pressure limits.

Here’s a real life graph to

Here’s a real life graph to back it up.

Mathemagician wrote:

Mathemagician wrote:

Joe Totale wrote:

This for me. Recently I’ve been looking to go tubeless but on top of the tyres I’d need all the additional kit like sealent, a valve core remover and tyre worms.  Once I did the maths it was going to cost me over £150! 

Considering a pair of decent clinchers and tubes can be bought for £60 or less, the price disparity is just too large for me and many others. And that’s before we go into the additional faff of mounting the things…

I don’t know where you learned maths, but how the hell do you get £150? Valve core remover costs about £0 if you have a pair of needle nose pliers. Tyre worms…what, never bought a puncture repair kit in your life? Tubeless pumps are about £50 if you’re afraid of unbranded stuff, or probably about a fiver if you’re not. Alternatively, you can easily make one yourself with a 2l coke bottle, some old inner tube valves and some 5mm tubing. The tubing cost me 90p from a hardware store and the pop bottle was 16p- I even got free fizzy water with it. Sealant is less than a tenner. My Schwalbe Pro Ones were £70 for the pair, and in addition there was a one off purchase of some valves (about 8 quid). We get it, you’re a roadie and are therefore afraid of anything new, but these arguments with made up numbers and imagined inconveniences are so fucking tiresome.

..and you make it sound so easy 😉 !

KiwiMike wrote:

rogermerriman wrote:

For road bikes, even new bikes probably don’t have tubless ready rims, my gravel bike doesn’t and it’s a month old..

 

Any rim can be set up tubeless, it’s the tyre that matters. Tubeless yim tape and the right valve. That’s it. My CX bike has early-80’s Mavic Open Pro’s and I raced a season on them tubeless, no bother.

tyres are the most important, part yes. And lots of folks at least online seem to have success with Converting their rim, this said tubless rims do have (generally) minor shape changes to help keep the tyre in place, seems to still be a bit of a random which rim/tyres will getto and which will not, or at least with out a lot of work. Gravel/bridleways etc will generally require quite a bit more pressure than, CX racing and on the road yet another jump up. At those pressures you’d need to be very sure of your getto rims.

Mathemagician wrote:

Mathemagician wrote:

Joe Totale wrote:

This for me. Recently I’ve been looking to go tubeless but on top of the tyres I’d need all the additional kit like sealent, a valve core remover and tyre worms.  Once I did the maths it was going to cost me over £150! 

Considering a pair of decent clinchers and tubes can be bought for £60 or less, the price disparity is just too large for me and many others. And that’s before we go into the additional faff of mounting the things…

I don’t know where you learned maths, but how the hell do you get £150? Valve core remover costs about £0 if you have a pair of needle nose pliers. Tyre worms…what, never bought a puncture repair kit in your life? Tubeless pumps are about £50 if you’re afraid of unbranded stuff, or probably about a fiver if you’re not. Alternatively, you can easily make one yourself with a 2l coke bottle, some old inner tube valves and some 5mm tubing. The tubing cost me 90p from a hardware store and the pop bottle was 16p- I even got free fizzy water with it. Sealant is less than a tenner. My Schwalbe Pro Ones were £70 for the pair, and in addition there was a one off purchase of some valves (about 8 quid). We get it, you’re a roadie and are therefore afraid of anything new, but these arguments with made up numbers and imagined inconveniences are so fucking tiresome.

All pricings were ascertained from The Cycle Clinic:

Road Tyres

Tubeless bits and bobs

I know that the guy who runs The CycleClinic is a big advocate of Tubeless tyres and he’s not “a roadie and are therefore afraid of anything new”.

Also I’d rather use some proper equipment and not bodge my own as frankly I’m not that great at it.

rogermerriman wrote:

For road bikes, even new bikes probably don’t have tubless ready rims, my gravel bike doesn’t and it’s a month old..

Any rim can be set up tubeless, it’s the tyre that matters. Tubeless yim tape and the right valve. That’s it. My CX bike has early-80’s Mavic Open Pro’s and I raced a season on them tubeless, no bother.

I have found this with
I have found this with tubeless tyres, after the first mounting they become a bit trickier to get to seat, particularly over time. Don’t know if it is the rubber compressing slightly (is that possible?) or the bead is stretching, but either way have found sticking sealant in before having a go with standard track pump does the trick. Just slosh it around the inside of the tyre, ok don’t slosh it if you care about your carpet/flooring etc., move carefully around the inside of the tyre by rotating it. Then pump. Works for me on Stan’s Alpha rim.