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Legal Question please!

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  • March 22, 2016 at 8:00 pm #25523
    grumpyoldcyclist

    Hi

    Shortened version of long story

    Cowards Pass / Punishment Pass by SUV with trailer, no problem, have camera footage. Off to Cheshire police, they say not taking action. Challenged them back, but same answer. Now preparing to complain, but need some help.

    I know that there are cases in UK law which have established a legal precedent that cyclists ‘wobble’ ie do not travel in straight lines due to the fact that our vehicles only have two wheels. Does anyone know these cases so that I can quote them in my complaint please?

    Please help a fellow cylist of advancing years, thanks.

     

    The older I get, the better I was

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  • March 25, 2016 at 7:39 pm #868841
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    grumpyoldcyclist

    ‘exilegareth’

    ‘exilegareth’

    I do have such a case potentially. I’ve given an  official police statement and a notice of intended prosecution has been sent, about a pass that took place on 12/2/16. It’s a close pass, certainly does not comply with section 163 or 211-5 of the HC, but probably not as close as passes that others have described. The most interesting part is that there is no traffic coming in the other direction. I have two other cases of close passes also going through the process but both of those also involve oncoming traffic, so it could be argued that the overtaking drivers are inconveniencing the oncoming traffic, not me the cyclist. In the incident of 12/2/16 if the driver is ticketed for driving without due care and attention, it will be wholly about the cyclist, nobody else. We shall have to wait and see.

    March 25, 2016 at 6:15 pm #868839
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    exilegareth

    What we need is for someone

    What we need is for someone to get a test case brough not on the higher charge of dangerous driving, but to establish whattype of driving would meet the standard for a prosecution for driving without due consideration.

     

    Martin Porter’s case is much quoted, but he set himself a very high hurdle to clear going for dangerous driving; one suspects a private prosecution for driving without due consideration might succeed.

    March 23, 2016 at 8:55 pm #868837
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    grumpyoldcyclist

    Thanks for the responses,

    Thanks for the responses, much appreciated.

    Mike the Bike, I’m not even really asking for a prosecution (but actually would be happy if it happened) just want them to ‘have a word’ and point out sections 163 and 211 of the HC. Be happy with that.

    bornslippy, that’s the point exactly, there is no ‘offence’. We all know that if I started waving a baseball bat around in the high street 300 mm from people, I’d be tazered, even if there was no contact. Do the same with two tonnes of metal, what’s the issue?

    L.Willo, there’s deffo some case law out there that has established a legal precedent, but I can’t remember the case  

    Mungecrundle, nail on head. Sergeant said as much, I pointed out that I’d probably be dead at that point, so to add further insult, he said that if a following driver gave the opinion the pass was stupid then a prosecution would take place. So the opinion of another driver is more valid than clear camera evidence it seems, thing is I’ve been driving for over 40 years too, but that doesn’t count either.

    Strange thing is North Wales police have been most helpful and have ‘spoken to’ four drivers this year and are currently referring another two cases for prosecution, all based on my camera evidence. I commute the same route most days and I don’t go looking for these incidents (who does?) but just want something done to educate drivers. Feel I have to follow this one through, but probably, as everyone says, be pointless.

     

    March 23, 2016 at 6:40 pm #868835
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    Mungecrundle

    You need to at least get run

    You need to at least get run over to have any chance of success and even then there are no guarantees. Unless you enjoy the stress, post it up on YouTube and put it behind you.

    I know I’ll get flammed for putting up with reckless and dangerous behaviour from other road users. We should not have to tolerate it and it’s frustrating when people who do bad things to others get away with it. However I have seen people become consumed with their own need for justice to the point where they make themselves ill. 

    March 23, 2016 at 6:11 pm #868833
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    L.Willo

    What are you complaining
    What are you complaining about? The decision not to prosecute or the way your case was handled?

    If the former, I do not fancy your chances. Your experience would need to be spectacularly bad. Giving a cyclist wobble room is in the same category as wear a helmet and hiviz; advisable but not compulsory.

    If the latter then probably you should register a complaint at the IPCC website.

    March 23, 2016 at 5:47 pm #868831
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    bornslippy

    Which “offence”? I’m not a

    Which “offence”? I’m not a lawyer but I think one of the problems here is that the Highway code gives guidance on various things (such as how much space should be given when overtaking a  cyclist, rule 212 ) but it is not a specific law in every case (which has MUST in the text somewhere if I recall correctly) except within the general bounds of “driving without due care and attention” ie if you were on a driving test and you did that, you would fail.  So if the police see evidence of someone doing that they should do something about it, shouldn’t they? Why video evidence isnt good enough I don’t know.

    Otherwise, I suspect that it is only if there is typically damage or an accident and then an investigation would breaking a rule of the highway code then be looked at as evidence of fault.

    I may be wrong on the above, please someone correct me if I am wrong. 

    I have no evidence of any police action being taken on any reports I have made about driving without due care and attention. I too, suffer close passes nearly every day and constantly wonder how to stop some drivers increasing my risk of death or serious injury…

    Cycling is supposed to be good for your health but sometimes I suspect that it just causes stress.  

    I suggest that you complain and see what the response is. The more we do this, the more publicity there is and the more likely some improvment will come. Please don’t just give up.  

    March 23, 2016 at 5:32 pm #868829
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    CXR94Di2

    Better off now pitting up on
    Better off now pitting up on YouTube. Quoting the officer who decided on no action. You would be surprised how a little publicity can work. If you could get the insurance of the vehicle you could cause their premium to rise being a enhanced risk on the road.

    March 23, 2016 at 4:57 pm #868827
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    mike the bike

     

     

    I wouldn’t get your hopes up Mr Grumps.  The famous and highly esteemed cycling barrister Martin Porter recently took out a private prosecution for exactly this offence and presented the court with both video and expert witness evidence.  Needless to say the jury, being peers of the accused, found him not guilty.

    If he can’t win it, you probably won’t. 

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