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Stopped by the Police, did I break the law?

  • This topic has 90 replies, 54 voices, and was last updated 11 years ago by Anonymous.
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  • May 29, 2015 at 2:24 pm #24113
    untakenname

    Rode my commuting bike into work today and came up on some red traffic lights at Dulwich so dismounted and walked it across the junction (green man was showing) as it sometimes takes upto 3 minutes for the lights to change again then hopped back on and carried on my way.

    A little while later some dick in an undercover bmw 1 series sounds his sirens and lights at me making me stop and then starts berating me saying how it’s illegal to go through a red light, I said that I was walking across so there was no issue as I was a pedestrian at the time and then he has the audacity to tell me that I’m still wrong and that “this is a one way conversation” even though imo I wasn’t breaking any laws.

    Video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvPMXq3XoI

    Just wondering if what I did was illegal and if so what laws I’ve broken?

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  • June 1, 2015 at 12:30 pm #848073
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    vonhelmet

    Regardless of the legalities,
    Regardless of the legalities, if you did this in front of me I’d think you were a bit of a nob.

    June 1, 2015 at 12:21 pm #848071
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    tao24

    Essentially any rule applied
    Essentially any rule applied to a person pushing a bicycle has to also apply to a person pushing a wheelchair or a buggy.
    If they are all pedestrians they have to obey constables in uniform or traffic officers who are governing traffic flow on a road.
    If they are vehicles they all have to obey traffic lights.
    It seems that invalid carriages are treated as vehicles on the road, and as pedestrians on pavements.
    Therefore you need to move onto the pavement to make running a bike across a road legal.
    If you pick the bike up however you are definitely a pedestrian, and therefore by carrying your bike you ensure what you did is defintely not illegal.

    June 1, 2015 at 11:53 am #848069
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    justinberman

    You have to obey the rules of
    You have to obey the rules of the road, meaning that you should stop for red lights. If you were driving a car, it would add time to your journey, same thing for a bike. I’d familiarise yourself with the Highway Code if it still isn’t clear, but it’s pretty simple to most of us, you stop for red!

    June 1, 2015 at 11:46 am #848067
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    BikeBud

    100% taking the piss. I
    100% taking the piss. I can’t even believe you posted this.

    Regardless of whether “propelling” the bike, you weren’t following the spirit or intended application of the rules.

    We have rules so other road users can anticipate what we’ll do, and so we can anticipate what other road users do. This helps improve safety all round. “Accidents” usually happen because someone hasn’t followed the rules – speeding, priority at junctions, passing distance…

    If the pedestrian lights were green then use the pedestrian crossing area to push your bike across – not the road. Do one thing, or do the other. It isn’t mix and match to suit your personal convenience.

    Why couldn’t you wait for “up to 3 minutes”? What is so special about your time or your journey? Isn’t that the same attitude as we experience from drivers who “must get in front”, who won’t wait to pass in a safe place?

    May 31, 2015 at 11:29 pm #848065
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    Curto80

    Northernbike wrote:Not sure

    Northernbike wrote:
    Not sure what the precise legal position is here but anyone who arrives at a red light and gets off and runs through it it is definitely guilty of the crime of taking the piss

    ^ this, enough said.

    May 31, 2015 at 9:30 pm #848063
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    bikebot

    Google found it. The stuff
    Google found it. The stuff you quoted is a template from the Police National Legal Database.

    The PNLD is basically a collection of guidance widely used by the Police to simplify what would otherwise require years of legal training to understand. It’s not legislation.

    May 31, 2015 at 8:53 pm #848061
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    bikebot

    stumps wrote:The law I quoted

    stumps wrote:
    The law I quoted is NOT about vehicles but pedal cycles so whether people want to call it a vehicle or not is irrelevant as this law is about pedal cycles.

    You didn’t give a citation for the quote, which sounds more like a Police form or guidance than a law. Laws don’t usually have blanks saying “specify date”. What you did say was that “you have broken the law because propelling a bike is also pushing it”, and that that is established through case law. At present, the most directly relevant case is still Crank v Brooks, which actually established the opposite.

    Whether the person at the time is a vehicle or a pedestrian is wholly relevant, and has been the pivotal question in previous rulings.

    May 31, 2015 at 8:29 pm #848059
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    mrmo

    wycombewheeler wrote:
    Looking

    wycombewheeler wrote:

    Looking forward to seeing drives punished for driving on the pavement to get to their drives by your logic. If you have no drive and must pass a line of parked cars, then obviosuly you would have to push the bike along.

    I believe part of the reason you need to apply to the council for a dropped kerb is to ensure the paperwork is in order and to prevent a crime taking place!

    May 31, 2015 at 8:10 pm #848057
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    wycombewheeler

    HalfWheeler wrote:
    So if I

    HalfWheeler wrote:

    So if I walk along the pavement with my bike it’s the same as cycling and therefore illegal? How should I get to the road from my frontdoor then?

    Normally I get from my front door to the road by going across rather than along the pavenment, the direct route. And I would start riding on the drive.

    Looking forward to seeing drives punished for driving on the pavement to get to their drives by your logic. If you have no drive and must pass a line of parked cars, then obviosuly you would have to push the bike along.

    Also I would think the intention of propel in the law is riding rather than pushing, however, from the video it seems the OP doesn’t even stop, hence getting into a grey area. A cyclist who dismounts transfers the bike to the pavement and walks across the crossing would be much safer from scrutiny than someone who take the bike along the road through a red light at riding speed. might as well just take my feet of the pedals and scoot along.

    May 31, 2015 at 7:00 pm #848055
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    Stumps

    The law I quoted is NOT about
    The law I quoted is NOT about vehicles but pedal cycles so whether people want to call it a vehicle or not is irrelevant as this law is about pedal cycles.

    May 31, 2015 at 5:44 pm #848053
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    Anonymous

    In case your in any doubt as
    In case your in any doubt as to whether a cycle is a vehicle; the legislation that governs what lights & reflectors you must have and when is

    The Road Vehicles (Lighting) Regulations 1989.

    May 31, 2015 at 3:36 pm #848051
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    bikebot

    Awavey wrote:I didnt think

    Awavey wrote:
    I didnt think bicycles were classified as “vehicles” as such, which is why all that stuff about propelling a vehicle isnt necessarily relevant IMO.

    They are.

    If you want the exact words, this is the most recent UK definition of a bicycle: “two-wheeled vehicle that is propelled solely by the muscular energy of the person on that vehicle by means of pedals and has not been constructed or adapted for propulsion by mechanical power.”

    Historically, it goes right back to bicycles being classified as carriages (thus a form of vehicle and not a pedestrian).

    Road traffic legislation tends to use the terms vehicles and motor vehicles explicitly to define the scope of a particular rule.

    May 31, 2015 at 3:13 pm #848049
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    Awavey

    I didnt think bicycles were
    I didnt think bicycles were classified as “vehicles” as such, which is why all that stuff about propelling a vehicle isnt necessarily relevant IMO.

    certainly Ive sometimes walked red lights when they fail to pick my bike up, or even hopped off and joined the crossing as thats the route I wanted to go.

    the only thing I think you did wrong was made it obviously “running a light”, if youd dismounted and just walked across the road, or even done a more obvious green cross code look,listen etc type crossing, and not done the whole triathlon running style transition thing,mr bored policeman might not have felt the need to interject, the whole its a one way conversation highlights he thinks he wasnt on dead sure ground either, he was just annoyed you did it.

    and Ive no idea why so many are chucking their toys out of the prams for on it.

    May 31, 2015 at 1:39 pm #848047
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    bikebot

    stumps wrote:bikebot. The

    stumps wrote:
    bikebot. The section I read this on and cut and pasted it does not have any case law with it. Generally when there is its usually listed as ??? v ???.

    I agree though, just don’t do it and you wont get in the clarts.

    The catch is whether you’re still a vehicle when you dismount. The rulings in the case of pedestrian crossings says you’re not, see Crank v Brooks (and isn’t that just a brilliant pair of names for a cycling case). If you have both feet on the ground and are pushing the bicycle, from the point of view of the law you’re simply a pedestrian, the bicycle is irrelevant. That’s the crux of the argument, the law you’ve quoted is about vehicles and he claims he’s no longer a vehicle.

    Now whether that’s true on the road rather than a crossing is another matter, more so if you’re running across stop lines and past red lights! I know it has been tested for a motorcycle and the prosecution held. Sorry, I can’t find the case details, and my memory is a little vague on the specifics, but basically someone on a motorbike tried the same defence and lost. As far as I know it hasn’t been tested for a bicycle, but I suspect a prosecution would hold.

    Whether you push, carry or juggle the bike would probably makes very little difference.

    May 31, 2015 at 1:10 pm #848045
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    Northernbike

    Not sure what the precise
    Not sure what the precise legal position is here but anyone who arrives at a red light and gets off and runs through it it is definitely guilty of the crime of taking the piss

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