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manmachine.
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December 3, 2014 at 4:12 pm #22820
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HalfWheeler
KiwiMike wrote:HalfWheeler
KiwiMike wrote:HalfWheeler wrote:@ KiwiMikeHow long is a mtb peloton (for want of a better description)? One rider then a gap of 10 or 20 feet, then a small group, another gap, this time 5 seconds or so, more riders with gaps of 2 feet, 10 feet, 50 feet, etc, etc?
Rather different in a road race. Scores of riders inches apart, numbering 80 in an amatuer event, double that in a pro race, overlapping, travelling up to 30 mph on the flat (44 ft per second). If the guy that is 12 inches in front of you can stop at half the distance you can then it stands to reason that there is potential for near misses or actual crashes
My guess is that there will be disc brakes in the pro peloton one day but all the teams will make the switch in the same season.
As others have said, why isn’t this stopping power disparity an issue now – someone on carbon rims, in the wet, on old pads vs. someone on brand-new alu rims, with hydraulic rim brakes and Kool-Stop Salmons. Hell, compare Stock Sora’s with dual-pivot Ultegras. Massive difference. What if the person in front has been feathering their brakes/drying their rims ‘cos they know a turn is coming?
Sorry, I just do not buy this pile-ups-a’-comin’ doomsaying. If someone’s 12″ in front of you and they grab a handful at 30MPH, it doesn’t matter WHAT kind of brake they or you are using – you’re all going down.
Because the disc brakes ar SO much more powerful. Yes, there all sorts of different brakes and rims in the bunch right now but those differences pale in comparison to the difference hydraulic disc brakes will bring.
In fact it’s kinda the point. Why the switch? Because they are so much more powerful, because your braking distances are so much shorter. That’s why it’s being considered!
You can not say, in the same breath, “it won’t change a thing in the bunch” then say “oh disc brakes are amazing, so much better than puny road brakes”.
Look, I’ve got some 1st hand experience from this. My winter rig has shockingly bad brakes. Can’t afford to replace them at the mo. It makes life on a club run, erm…lets just say interesting! I’m getting away with it on a Sunday run. Wouldn’t try it in a chain gang or road race.
As I’ve said before, the pro bunch will change to them but they’ll all do it in the same season. And that will probably be within the next 3 years, 5 maximum.
KiwiMike
Super Domestique wrote:
HowSuper Domestique wrote:
How on Earth is the view of someone who works in the sport and quotes from racers irrelevant?
That is like saying the opinion of a cycling journalist is irrelevant!I take bike mechanics naysaying discs based on supposition like I take panelbeaters bemoaning better highway design because they maybe get less work out of it. Sure it’s the same overall industry, but that doesn’t make any one individual’s view gospel. Give me stats on the occurrence of injury due to flailing rotors, say as compared to chainrings. Let’s face it: the rotor is pretty small, tucked in behind the triangle or fork, surrounded by a much larger rim, and only on one side of the bike. You’d have to be ***spectacularly unlucky*** to have a crash result in a debilitating rotor-related injury. Where do most crashes happen? In bunch sprints or on the flat, where no-one’s on the brakes so no heat issues. Not when descending cols.
David Arthur @davearthur
HalfWheeler wrote:”But issues
HalfWheeler wrote:”But issues such as burning disc rotors and braking distance differences aren’t cons, they’re not even issues in my view, but take people away from the main issues of the debate”Ah, so that’s what decides what an issue is, whether it has your seal of approval or not.
Silly me…
Well, no, for the burning disc rotors topics, it’s a view based on evidence. You might not agree, that’s fair enough, but imho it isn’t something we need to concern ourselves with in this debate
As for braking distances, KiwiMike hits the nail on the head. The disparity of braking power isn’t what causes crashes, and never will be. If someone in front of you suddenly grabs a handful of brake, and you’re not paying attention, you’re riding into the back of them. Or veering off into the hedge. There are many many causes of crashes in road races
fukawitribe
Flying Scot
Flying Scot wrote:Consider:Pro’s don’t give a shit about wearing rims out
Pro’s are much lighter than your average rider so don’t need they extra powerThat’s missing the point by some margin….
Flying Scot wrote:…they will ride whatever they are given by the team sponsorTrue
Flying Scot wrote:Why I don’t think its imminent:All 3 big names need a road race disc product to push, and none really have one, Campag have nothing at all.
Two of the three have product which is probably suitable now, and the other is rumoured to have one out next year, but as the UCI won’t allow it in road-racing that’s largely irrelevent.
Flying Scot wrote:The rules are super conservative, this would be a biggie, I see frame rules being relaxed first.You may well be right on that.
“But issues such as burning
“But issues such as burning disc rotors and braking distance differences aren’t cons, they’re not even issues in my view, but take people away from the main issues of the debate”Ah, so that’s what decides what an issue is, whether it has your seal of approval or not.
Silly me…
KiwiMike
HalfWheeler wrote:@
HalfWheeler wrote:@ KiwiMikeHow long is a mtb peloton (for want of a better description)? One rider then a gap of 10 or 20 feet, then a small group, another gap, this time 5 seconds or so, more riders with gaps of 2 feet, 10 feet, 50 feet, etc, etc?
Rather different in a road race. Scores of riders inches apart, numbering 80 in an amatuer event, double that in a pro race, overlapping, travelling up to 30 mph on the flat (44 ft per second). If the guy that is 12 inches in front of you can stop at half the distance you can then it stands to reason that there is potential for near misses or actual crashes
My guess is that there will be disc brakes in the pro peloton one day but all the teams will make the switch in the same season.
As others have said, why isn’t this stopping power disparity an issue now – someone on carbon rims, in the wet, on old pads vs. someone on brand-new alu rims, with hydraulic rim brakes and Kool-Stop Salmons. Hell, compare Stock Sora’s with dual-pivot Ultegras. Massive difference. What if the person in front has been feathering their brakes/drying their rims ‘cos they know a turn is coming?
Sorry, I just do not buy this pile-ups-a’-comin’ doomsaying. If someone’s 12″ in front of you and they grab a handful at 30MPH, it doesn’t matter WHAT kind of brake they or you are using – you’re all going down.
Flying Scot
Consider:
Pro’s don’t give a
Consider:Pro’s don’t give a shit about wearing rims out
Pro’s are much lighter than your average rider so don’t need they extra power
…they will ride whatever they are given by the team sponsorWhy I don’t think its imminent:
All 3 big names need a road race disc product to push, and none really have one, Campag have nothing at all.
The rules are super conservative, this would be a biggie, I see frame rules being relaxed first.David Arthur @davearthur
HalfWheeler wrote:David
HalfWheeler wrote:David Arthur wrote:Disc brakes may or may not happen in the pro peloton, but let’s at least have a proper debate about their pros and cons and keep all this technophobe stuff out of the debateIf there is to be a proper debate about it then, as you suggest, it should feature both the pros and cons. But if we take your suggestion and unilaterally leave out all the anti disc brake views (the ‘technophobe stuff’) then all that will leave is the pro disc brake opinions.
Not much of a debate when only one side of an argument is allowed.
Well, if we’re worried about pro racing adopting disc brakes (which I’m not at all) then issues such as weight, axle standards and disc rotor sizes for wheel changes – though most wheel changes are from the team car, not Mavic neutral support – and possibly aerodynamics, would be the cons that are currently preventing its immediate adoption, and need to be discussed
But issues such as burning disc rotors and braking distance differences aren’t cons, they’re not even issues in my view, but take people away from the main issues of the debate
David Arthur wrote:Disc
David Arthur wrote:Disc brakes may or may not happen in the pro peloton, but let’s at least have a proper debate about their pros and cons and keep all this technophobe stuff out of the debateIf there is to be a proper debate about it then, as you suggest, it should feature both the pros and cons. But if we take your suggestion and unilaterally leave out all the anti disc brake views (the ‘technophobe stuff’) then all that will leave is the pro disc brake opinions.
Not much of a debate when only one side of an argument is allowed.
Super Domestique
David Arthur wrote:That
David Arthur wrote:That article is mostly a load of nonsense. Does anyone really care what a team mechanic thinks on any new technology, when his job is simply to clean and service the bikes. All this stuff about disc brakes being dangerous in a crash, or the different braking distances, are just peoples fear of the new.Disc brakes may or may not happen in the pro peloton, but let’s at least have a proper debate about their pros and cons and keep all this technophobe stuff out of the debate, because it’s distracting from the real issues at the core of the debate
How on Earth is the view of someone who works in the sport and quotes from racers irrelevant?
That is like saying the opinion of a cycling journalist is irrelevant!David Arthur @davearthur
That article is mostly a load
That article is mostly a load of nonsense. Does anyone really care what a team mechanic thinks on any new technology, when his job is simply to clean and service the bikes. All this stuff about disc brakes being dangerous in a crash, or the different braking distances, are just peoples fear of the new.Disc brakes may or may not happen in the pro peloton, but let’s at least have a proper debate about their pros and cons and keep all this technophobe stuff out of the debate, because it’s distracting from the real issues at the core of the debate
Paul J
road racers going down long,
road racers going down long, straight, tarmaced cols hit huge speeds, 100 km/h+, way more than MTBers do. The discs will get much hotter.Discs are not going to change the racing. They’re just going to force everyone into road racing to have to spend money. Pure marketing that drives this for racing.
@ KiwiMike
How long is a mtb
@ KiwiMikeHow long is a mtb peloton (for want of a better description)? One rider then a gap of 10 or 20 feet, then a small group, another gap, this time 5 seconds or so, more riders with gaps of 2 feet, 10 feet, 50 feet, etc, etc?
Rather different in a road race. Scores of riders inches apart, numbering 80 in an amatuer event, double that in a pro race, overlapping, travelling up to 30 mph on the flat (44 ft per second). If the guy that is 12 inches in front of you can stop at half the distance you can then it stands to reason that there is potential for near misses or actual crashes
My guess is that there will be disc brakes in the pro peloton one day but all the teams will make the switch in the same season.
KiwiMike
mtbtomo wrote:Its no
mtbtomo wrote:Its no different to group rides / peletons now – not all brakes stop as well as others, some on carbon rims, some on alloy rims, some on Shimano calipers, some on non-branded etc etc. Its down to the rider and how they ride responsibly in a group.Slamming on the brakes in a group will cause carnage whether they’re calipers or discs and regardless of what type of brakes the guy behind has.
THIS.
The last word on the canard-strawman-hyperbolic-discs-will-kill-us-all argument that a difference in stopping power amongst ***professionals*** will matter. You can’t say that the weakest part of the whole momentum-shedding game is the matchbox-sized interface ‘twixt rubber and road, then claim that no, it’s the thingy slowing the rim down that’ll get ya.
Do half-disc’d-half-canti ‘cross racers pile into each other at every corner? No. No they do not.
I ran New Zealand’s UCI-sanctioned MTB race series for three years. In that time we had loads of crashes, DH and XC – but I don’t recall a single injury from discs. Broken limbs, concussions etc yes, sliced up folks no. And in 15 years of riding / falling off MTB’s along with hundreds of friends and acquaintances, I can’t recall a single disc-related injury.
It’s just not an issue.
mtbtomo
Its no different to group
Its no different to group rides / peletons now – not all brakes stop as well as others, some on carbon rims, some on alloy rims, some on Shimano calipers, some on non-branded etc etc. Its down to the rider and how they ride responsibly in a group.Slamming on the brakes in a group will cause carnage whether they’re calipers or discs and regardless of what type of brakes the guy behind has.
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