Got to admire the Dutch...

chrisonatrike wrote:

Lots of bikes there and I suspect in a riot you set fire to whatever is to hand. I'm sure the French would be just as good at it if not better, given sufficient bikes (which conditions in Paris may encourage). As for bikes being in the "national character" there is some truth in that. It isn't the only reason for all the bikes though. (Nor is the flatness, the "good weather" etc.). I bet more rioters in The Netherlands get to their riot without using cars than rioters in the UK - because it's more convenient to do so. Indeed if you count cars owned per head of population people in The Netherlands could equally be said to be serious car enthusiasts - I think even more than we are in the UK.

Because in dutch cities it's easier to get around by bike than by car, while in the uk, we are struggling to reach a situation where it is AS easy to get around by bike as by car.

wycombewheeler wrote:

Because in dutch cities it's easier to get around by bike than by car, while in the uk, we are struggling to reach a situation where it is AS easy to get around by bike as by car.

Friend, you speak my mind. As Carlton Reid said in the context of Stevanage (and here) - where it's easy to drive, people drive.

The Dutch case is a bit different - driving and cycling both have advantages over the other in some circumstances. You've a genuine choice to make.

"You've a genuine choice to make."
 Not in most Dutch cities you've not! Amsterdam and Utrecht, for example, are a shocker in the centres if driving. Which is great, as the world and her husband therefore cycle. And the lack of gradient is important, meaning as it does anyone can get anywhere knowing they needn't work up a sweat. But you're right about the car ownership, which is hugely popular and snobby and basically out of control (a little how the situation is here re SUVs and those appallingly big and dangerous Mercedes etc juggernauts that seem to have become so popular).  That's due (in NL) to a company car being offered as standard. Error. The daily jams on the motorways are quite frankly hilarious. 

Good local knowledge. I know that Groningen has done a good job of splitting the city into cells - where you can't cut through the centre. I know Utrecht is continuing to make changes.

However I often hear that The Netherlands is actually pretty good to drive in. (Amsterdam driving video here). They certainly own a lot of cars.

This is a tricky area for many people. I've been told in the UK you can't mention anything "anti-car" because that shuts down any conversation. (I've also been told that the less you mention bikes, the better... I'll not be saying much then!) But in the UK yes - I think the degree of change needed to get anywhere close to where The Netherlands is will seem more like a revolution to many. Also people don't appreciate that there were some violent protests getting cars off the streets in The Netherlands - riots, cars set on fire.

It's not a zero-sum game as we've all got a lot to gain. However a rebalancing / reprioritising is needed and that means "losing" for some. Which will be some of the convenience to go everywhere and park anywhere in your car. There's only so much space.

HeadDown wrote:

And the lack of gradient is important, meaning as it does anyone can get anywhere knowing they needn't work up a sweat.

Agreed - people just using bikes for transport won't want to arrive hot and flustered. This is sometimes seen as an argument as to why we'll never have mass cycling in the UK. It's more nuanced though:

I believe most journeys in the UK (and the majority of journeys by bike in The Netherlands) are rather short. No need to work up a sweat.

In the UK we actually have a Holland - which is flat. As are many cities in the UK. A large proportion of the population make their short journeys on relatively level ground. The difference is in the UK we overwhelmingly use cars while in other places there may be a greater proportion of cyclists.

There are now eBikes too which can tame hills. So I'd say sweatiness and cycling are not necessarily combined. Nor are flatness and more people riding.

Back in the 1930s / 40s a huge percentage of people cycled all over the UK - often in places with hills. I'm no historian but I think they were keen on smelling fresh then too.

Finally in the UK most "cyclists" are a rather niche self-selected group. They tend to be more into working up a sweat! They also likely would cycle further than the rest of the population - if the rest cycled. As it doesn't feel safe mixing with our relatively high-speed traffic people have added incentive to go faster.