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Am I in the wrong?
As I am sure most people do at some point, I have a voice in my head that often tells me I am wrong. It's especially loud the more inexperienced I am.
I have been cycling regularly for about 18 months now. I don't consider myself new, but I also don't know other people that regularly cycle - other than the good people on here.
There is a particular junction on my route home, where I cycle towards a joining road - my road sweeps hard left and they join right on the corner. It is Give Way for the joining traffic. I often am faced with cars not giving way. Twice now I have submitted footage to the police and twice they have rejected it. The last time was with the statement (I had to raise a complaint to get the statement):
The reported vehicle looked to pull away from the give way junction a long time before the reporting cyclist reaches the junction. The reporting cyclist rides straight at the "offending vehicle" whilst moving into the right-hand lane, the lane that the vehicle is already in. NFA on this occasion.
In my submission I made it clear that I was braking before the car pulled out, but had to brake hard (my back wheel locked) as the car swung out to cover both lanes, leaving me with no where to go.
As the police have done nothing, I have uploaded it to YouTube, to ensure other cyclists can see what is going on.
The internet being the lovely place it is, has given me this comment on the video:
Another trouble making cyclist. U turned a complete non event into something. Could've just slowed ever so slightly but nope you needed something to upload?
My question is/are - should I have slowed a lot more and given way to the car? If the car had indeed pulled away from the junction "a long time" before I got there, surely I wouldn't have needed to brake at all, nevermind braking then hard braking?
For my own safety, looking back over the video, I should have braked a lot harder at the start, but at the same time, if I had been in a car and not on my bike, I would have at least honked my horn, as I would have expected the car to Give Way.
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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23 comments
You are 100% in the right, give way means . . . . give way!
I think the problem is car drivers are looking for a gap in the traffic to pull into and if you happen to be in that gap then you are invisible to their vehicle centric brains. The only thing you can do is stay visible by not tailgating and making sure you can see the driver so they can see you as you did perfectly in this case.
WMP took this to court when I reported it although for failure to provide details rather than the driving. That suits me as 6 points and £600+ fine is more than they would have got for it anyway.
https://upride.cc/incident/blind-volvo-driver-pulls-out-onto-roundabout/
As the police have done nothing
And their aim is to continue doing nothing- all this tripe about Highway Code changes is not accepted at all by the police, who still follow the 'might is right' rule where cyclists should always defer to respectable folk in vehicles in all circumstances and should be grateful at all times that the motorist hasn't hit them.
Offt! I don't see how that lorry didn't make contact!
West Yorkshire Police have pursued (most likely just a warning letter, but something) close passes that were not that close. It makes me a mixture of angry and scared that the police think that is acceptable driving.
It's always just a worthless warning letter. Lancashire has just gone one better: they don't respond at all.
You are absolutely NOT in th wrong here. You take a reasonable line, exactly what I would do, because (a) by going wide you can take a better angle though the turn and less chance of skidding (b) going wide gives you more manouvre should there be an unspottable obstruction round the corner (c) you take primary which seems sensible, and indeed advisable, to increase visibility.
The car driver is wrong, because they pulled out and forced you to break.
The police are wrong, because they don't understand the highway code, and are anti-cyclist.
I have generally had a good experience with my local Police - nine submissions and it is only the two at this particular junction that have been NFA.
I am really disappointed with their reply. It feels they are saying I should have braked for the car - effectively given way to it.
Still a lot better than the YT replies. This is my current favourite:
If they knew me at all......
Institutionally...
The laws for traffic signs and road markings are here.
The relevant bit for a Give Way line is:
The car driver is clearly in the wrong.
Yeah, I'd be tempted to kick that back for an appeal.
Removing any residual bias, the reality is that the car moved into a gap that was only viable if the approaching cyclist adjusted their speed and line to accommodate them. That's not how these junctions are supposed to work.
Now you might argue that the cyclist could have reacted sooner; that their reactions exaggerated the potential seriousness of the situation, but that's completely missing the point surely?
Was the cyclist in the wrong for taking the line they did? No.
Was the car obliged to giveway? Yes
Did the car's movement force the cyclist to change speed / direction? Yes
By my understanding the very definition of driving without due care / consideration.
I'm not saying this needs more than a warning letter, but this feels like the police are facilitating aggressive driving behaviours by accepting this.
With regards the due care/ consideration - one further piece of information I have left out (it's not on camera)
You can see the car is pulling in to park, which allowed me to pull alongside them - I didn't stop or say anything, I just like to look the person in the eye.
Unfortunately the driver was laughing her head off, so I couldn't catch her eye.
I noticed a few people standing on the pavement beside the car, so I am choosing to believe she was on the phone to them (hands free), arranging where to meet and was laughing with them, rather than laughing at "the stupid cyclist".
It does suggest she was completely oblivious to me, before, during and after.
The road markings don't help in this case - the hashed triangle bit might give the impression that the driver can pull out into the right-hand lane whilst you are expected to stay in the left-hand lane.
But I would certainly agree that the driver was at fault anyway - if nothing else they did not remain in the right-hand lane; and it would beg the question what the point of the give way marking is, if not requring drivers to give way to oncoming traffic.
I pulled this from my ride in this morning.
It is a shot from the other direction - the markings are a bit more obvious and there is a Give Way sign on the right. (the road is two lanes, in one direction)
There is a comment on the video asking if I indicated - I don't normally cycle in primary, this is one of the few places I do, because I had a car once pull along side me as I went round the corner, meaning I couldn't move to the right lane as I wanted. I indicate right to let cars know I am moving into primary, but don't indicate left as there is no other way for me to go.
If you indicated right here, it's possible the driver got confused by it and pulled out.
I don't indicate when moving between secondary and primary, it's not necessary - that movement is within the envelope of road space a cyclist should be given anyway.
It's a fair point and one I did dwell on.
I believe I stopped indicating while her view would have been blocked by the cars in front of me, but it is possible she saw and assumed I was pulling into premises on the right.
Agree it's within the envelope a cyclist should be given, but it doesn't always work like that. I can think of a particular pinch point where I usually signal to make abundantly clear that I am taking primary: https://goo.gl/maps/jQiiUkdxx96ZMdCX9
Be careful there - you'll get a driver saying they assumed you were indicating to join the cycle path!
There will be exceptions, but I find myself being very careful of indicating on the bike these days. Generally, getting my road position sorted early and occasionally deploying 'wobbly cyclist mode' seems to serve me better than prescribed signals.
Before indicating I do a very quick risk assessment, will it help, and more importantly do I need to brake, turn or lay down power, all of which are very affected by not having a hand on the bars.
I think if you had been a car, they would have not done it or the police would have shown more interest.
Strikes me as one you'd see on a dash cam compilation if you were a car.
I see cyclinggaz does a car overlay on a few of his videos just to get in people's heads 'would you have done this if I were a car?'
As far as I'm aware, and was taught by my motorcycle instructor, you should never pull across a give way if in doing so you are going to force oncoming traffic in either direction to take evasive action, even if that's just lifting off the accelerator. So if you had to brake hard to avoid a car pulling over the give way you are definitely within your rights to feel aggrieved both by the driver's action and the police's dismissal of your complaint.
Thank you. It's certainly not the scariest interaction I have had on the road, but it is the one that has me questioning myself the most. Certainly after the police told me I was wrong (I'm of an age where the police were always right)
Without this website and its users, I would have spent a long time trying to figure out the answer.
You have also helped make up my mind on whether to subscribe.
Apologies, I didn't see the video link at the bottom of your comment. It absolutely confirms that the driver was in the wrong and as Hirsute says the police would very likely have acted if you were in a car rather than on a bike. The Highway Code rule is that you must give way to traffic on the main road; if said traffic, without accelerating, can come that close to you it has clearly not obeyed this requirement.
Or, as Holdingon has said in their OP, quoted above - if the operator of the oncoming vehicle (which in this case was a bicycle) has to taken any action to avoid a collision then you're not giving due consideration to the other road users, which surely is an offence.