[Leviathan]

Former Olympic cyclist Chris Boardman has called on Boris Johnson to consider banning lorries from some of London’s roads during peak times.

Following the death of six cyclists on London’s roads in two weeks, Mr Boardman asked the mayor to honour a “promise” he made by looking at similar schemes in operation abroad.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24999302

Full beeb article, clicky. The voice of rationality takes on Humpty Dumpty [totally unbiased view.]

Topic

[Shep73]

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FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

@Shep73

I’m not sure what the refence to the Quantocks is about (I gather that’s somewhere in England – which I think is the country outside the M25, a strange faraway land of which I know little).

But it just gets my goat to hear slightly pious lectures on ‘personal responsibility’ when the fundamental issue is the lack of such responsibility shown by too many of those who choose to bring dangerous items into my city (very often entirely unnecessarily). The primary responsibility lies with those who wield dangerous weapons on public streets, and anyone who does that is on thin ice for giving lectures to others about ‘responsibility’.

You may well be a brilliant cyclist in terms of fitness, speed, technique, whatever, but if you drive into London I don’t accept you are really speaking as a ‘cyclist’ when expressing opinions about the conflict between different modes of transport on the streets.

I do happen to think it should ultimately be down to road planners to reduce the burden of care placed on motorists, as that group are never all going to behave ‘responsibily’ becuase they are human beings and hence imperfect. But in the meantime, the lectures need to be directed at those who create the danger.

Road furniture and design effects most users, but motor cyclists and pedal cyclists are more vulnerable so surely we should ride to the conditions and road layout.
Like I said it’s all too easy to point the finger rather than look at what a user group can do itself to prevent accidents. Going up the inside of buses and lorries is just suicidal and jumping red lights is not excusable just because we don’t have an engine. I’m not saying it excuses idiots in cars that shouldn’t even be on the road but are safety begins with our own actions.

And yes the Quantocks is in Sommerset. Very nice part of the world with brilliant XC trails and downhills that boil brake fluid.

[FluffyKittenofTindalos]

@Shep73
I’m not sure what the
@Shep73

I’m not sure what the refence to the Quantocks is about (I gather that’s somewhere in England – which I think is the country outside the M25, a strange faraway land of which I know little).

But it just gets my goat to hear slightly pious lectures on ‘personal responsibility’ when the fundamental issue is the lack of such responsibility shown by too many of those who choose to bring dangerous items into my city (very often entirely unnecessarily). The primary responsibility lies with those who wield dangerous weapons on public streets, and anyone who does that is on thin ice for giving lectures to others about ‘responsibility’.

You may well be a brilliant cyclist in terms of fitness, speed, technique, whatever, but if you drive into London I don’t accept you are really speaking as a ‘cyclist’ when expressing opinions about the conflict between different modes of transport on the streets.

I do happen to think it should ultimately be down to road planners to reduce the burden of care placed on motorists, as that group are never all going to behave ‘responsibily’ becuase they are human beings and hence imperfect. But in the meantime, the lectures need to be directed at those who create the danger.

[Shep73]

FluffyKittenofTindalos

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

VeloPeo wrote:

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Shep73 wrote:

As a keen cyclist.

Er…you just admitted you are in fact a driver. Don’t try and speak as something you aren’t.

I’m not defending the guy’s rather idiotic (or trolling) comments but it’s possible to be both you know. I’ll have driven about 12k miles and cycled 2.5k miles by the end of this year

Well, I’m overstating it a bit. But personally I’m mostly just ‘not a motorist’ and I get tired of people claiming to speak ‘as a cyclist’ because they do a bit of off-roading or occasionally cycle for sport or leisure when their main means of transport for practical purposes is a car and their attitudes and sense of self-interest are consequently those of a motorist above all.

Well Considering it is a 180 mile journey I take for football, and it involves going with other people. I don’t think my bikes would fit us all on. Juding by your comment, I’m not a cyclist because I only do it for sport/pleasure compared to someone who does it because they have too. Utter rubbish. I look forward to you showing me the way at the Forest of Dean/Quantocks in the near future.

Oh and when I ride on the road, I treat others including motorist how I expect to be treated.

[Shep73]

FluffyKittenofTindalos

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Shep73 wrote:

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Shep73 wrote:

As a keen cyclist.

Er…you just admitted you are in fact a driver. Don’t try and speak as something you aren’t.

I just don’t believe in blaming other people for everything. Cyclist need to take responsibility for their actions as well. I take it it was the trails fault a mountain biker died at Swinley the weekend. May be all mountain bike trails should be sponge.

I believe in blaming those responsible. And in the vast majority of cases that would be the motorist and the road traffic engineers (and the wider society that contributes to their behaviour). Not only do the statistics demonstrate that the motorist is far more likely to be the one who caused the accident, there’s also the basic point that the motor vehicle is the thing that creates the risk, not the bike.

Cyclists (and pedestrians) already take the consequences of their mistakes because they are the vulnerable parties, the problem is that motorists mostly don’t. So why do you chose to bang on about the least culpable and most vulnerable party?

Yes we are vulnerable but we also have a duty of care for ourselves, as a motorcyclist as well I would tell everybody the same thing. Treat car and van drivers as idiots and you’ll stay alive. It does seem though it’s all too easy to blame others. I wouldn’t even filter past lorries on a motorbike.

[FluffyKittenofTindalos]

Shep73

Shep73 wrote:

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Shep73 wrote:

As a keen cyclist.

Er…you just admitted you are in fact a driver. Don’t try and speak as something you aren’t.

I just don’t believe in blaming other people for everything. Cyclist need to take responsibility for their actions as well. I take it it was the trails fault a mountain biker died at Swinley the weekend. May be all mountain bike trails should be sponge.

I believe in blaming those responsible. And in the vast majority of cases that would be the motorist and the road traffic engineers (and the wider society that contributes to their behaviour). Not only do the statistics demonstrate that the motorist is far more likely to be the one who caused the accident, there’s also the basic point that the motor vehicle is the thing that creates the risk, not the bike.

Cyclists (and pedestrians) already take the consequences of their mistakes because they are the vulnerable parties, the problem is that motorists mostly don’t. So why do you chose to bang on about the least culpable and most vulnerable party?

[VeloPeo]

I didn’t realise there was a
I didn’t realise there was a minimum threshold….

[FluffyKittenofTindalos]

VeloPeo

VeloPeo wrote:

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Shep73 wrote:

As a keen cyclist.

Er…you just admitted you are in fact a driver. Don’t try and speak as something you aren’t.

I’m not defending the guy’s rather idiotic (or trolling) comments but it’s possible to be both you know. I’ll have driven about 12k miles and cycled 2.5k miles by the end of this year

Well, I’m overstating it a bit. But personally I’m mostly just ‘not a motorist’ and I get tired of people claiming to speak ‘as a cyclist’ because they do a bit of off-roading or occasionally cycle for sport or leisure when their main means of transport for practical purposes is a car and their attitudes and sense of self-interest are consequently those of a motorist above all.

[Shep73]

FluffyKittenofTindalos

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Shep73 wrote:

As a keen cyclist.

Er…you just admitted you are in fact a driver. Don’t try and speak as something you aren’t.

I just don’t believe in blaming other people for everything. Cyclist need to take responsibility for their actions as well. I take it it was the trails fault a mountain biker died at Swinley the weekend. May be all mountain bike trails should be sponge.

[VeloPeo]

FluffyKittenofTindalos

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Shep73 wrote:

As a keen cyclist.

Er…you just admitted you are in fact a driver. Don’t try and speak as something you aren’t.

I’m not defending the guy’s rather idiotic (or trolling) comments but it’s possible to be both you know. I’ll have driven about 12k miles and cycled 2.5k miles by the end of this year

[teaboy]

FluffyKittenofTindalos

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Shep73 wrote:

As a keen cyclist.

Er…you just admitted you are in fact a driver. Don’t try and speak as something you aren’t.

It’s quite possible to be a motorist, a cyclist, a pedestrian AND a user of public transport. Just because you use one mode of transport it doesn’t exclude you from using any other.

[FluffyKittenofTindalos]

Shep73 wrote:
As a keen

Shep73 wrote:

As a keen cyclist.

Er…you just admitted you are in fact a driver. Don’t try and speak as something you aren’t.

[FluffyKittenofTindalos]

Shep73 wrote: It’s all too

Shep73 wrote:

It’s all too easy in this country to blame everyone else instead of people taking responsibility for their own actions.

Indeed. That’s pretty much what motorists and the road lobby do.

[FluffyKittenofTindalos]

Shep73 wrote:Instead of

Shep73 wrote:

Instead of cyclists blaming everyone else, may be they need to look at why accidents happen.

I have done. The answer is ‘terrible road design’ ‘bad driving’ and ‘lack of enforcement of the laws of the road’.

[teaboy]

Shep73 wrote:Instead of

Shep73 wrote:

Instead of cyclists blaming everyone else, may be they need to look at why accidents happen. A cyclists goes up the inside of a lorry and ends up getting crushed, what do they expect. It doesn’t hurt to sit back and wait in the traffic like everyone else does. One of the cyclists killed in london was down the left and the nasty lorry had his right hand indicator going. Just may be the lorry has to swerve out to make the right turn so don’t go down the inside.

As someone who drives to London a fair bit for football, I am astounding by the idiocy and impatience some cyclists show, it won’t kill them to wait.
As for the blue lanes and Boris bikes. Both should be abolished, it it does is encourage complacency and people to ride in one of the busiest cities in the world with out any head protection, which is clearly needed when you see half of them weaving all over the place.

As a keen cyclist I think commuter cyclists leave a lot to be desired. It’s all too easy in this country to blame everyone else instead of people taking responsibility for their own actions.

We need to understand exactly why people ride up the left hand side of vehicles. Could it possibly be because that’s where the road shows them to be? Cycle infrastructure in this country is so bad that where it does exist cyclists are told not to use it because it’s dangerous! THIS is the problem that needs to be sorted out. Is it fair to paint roads to show everyone where cyclists ‘should’ be and then criticise them for obeying the ‘rules’ by being there? Create high-quality integrated segregation for cyclists that doesn’t prioritise motor traffic and people will use it and be less likely to die whilst doing so.

[Shep73]

Instead of cyclists blaming
Instead of cyclists blaming everyone else, may be they need to look at why accidents happen. A cyclists goes up the inside of a lorry and ends up getting crushed, what do they expect. It doesn’t hurt to sit back and wait in the traffic like everyone else does. One of the cyclists killed in london was down the left and the nasty lorry had his right hand indicator going. Just may be the lorry has to swerve out to make the right turn so don’t go down the inside.

As someone who drives to London a fair bit for football, I am astounding by the idiocy and impatience some cyclists show, it won’t kill them to wait.
As for the blue lanes and Boris bikes. Both should be abolished, it it does is encourage complacency and people to ride in one of the busiest cities in the world with out any head protection, which is clearly needed when you see half of them weaving all over the place.

As a keen cyclist I think commuter cyclists leave a lot to be desired. It’s all too easy in this country to blame everyone else instead of people taking responsibility for their own actions.

[Author]

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