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True hidden weld alloy bikes

Recently i've been bumping into numerous articles about Trek's new patented "invisible weld technology", some of such articles (and commentators on them) speculating that it might signal a "new age" for aluminium within the bike industry.

Well, lots of brands (Merida and their partner Specialized first come to mind) speak of their smooth weld technology but in reality their welds are certainly not invisible on close look. No foul i guess. They say smooth so that's ok. However looking at Trek's new so called "invisible" welds, while they may even be slightly more smoothed, slightly nearer to hidden than the aforementioned brands, they are still clearly visible on close look so doesn't one have to call Trek out for their invisible claim and name here?

Below is taken from the Trek Website..
"Trek’s advanced Alpha Aluminum frames feature Invisible Weld Technology, a revolutionary welding process that decreases weight and increases structural integrity, while also delivering finely tuned welds that are as aesthetically pleasing as they are strong.

Let’s be honest: Looks matter. A premium road bike requires clean, esteemed aesthetics that are not blemished by sloppy, highly visible weld material at every joint. Invisible Weld Technology produces welds that are just that—invisible"

Hmm. Below again is a link to google images of the Olympia Khers alloy road bike (released around 5 years ago and discontinued last spring) that has 100% true hidden weldings to the point that they leave the frame mistakable as carbon (until you might notice the few traditional weldings in lower areas like bb zone and chainstays). I own the bike and can assure you the pictures don't lie, the welds are totally 100% hidden. Under no light or angle can you see any sign whatsoever of the welds. They have obviously been well and truly buried.

https://www.google.com/search?q=olympia+khers+2018&source=lnms&tbm=isch&...

So then, truly invisible welds are nothing new. I'm pretty sure, though not positive, that De Rosa also have had smooth weld alloy frames like the Olympia in the past. In any case i don't think Olympia (who are not even that big or mainstream in Italy today, nevermind outside Italy) have some special corner on the market.

So, why don't more brands do it?

I can't think it's cost prohibitive (again, Olympia are not that big a brand and besides the Khers retailed at only about 750 euro in the entry Xenon Campagnolo build so was hardly an exotic priced bike)
A possible weight penalty was the first thing that popped to my mind (Ironically Trek say their invisible welds save on weight) but given the Khers in size L (second to biggest size) weighed 9.4kg on the scales and had no more than complete entry level components on it (in fact some remarkably heavy) save for Shimano 105 levers and deraileurs, this means that the frame, while not very light category definitely can't be remarkably heavy either (indeed I since got it down to almost 9kg even, merely by adding cheap enough Aksium Elite wheels and switching stem).
Third thing to come to mind was whether perhaps completely hidden weldings are considered to have a negative effect on ride quality (and i will readily admit "stiff" is a word that comes to mind if i am to describe the Khers ride quality, even if i have liked that "stiff" because it seems to translate nicely into speed).

Failing these theories, I'm left imagining some far fetched conspiracy within the bike industry where the majority of bike brands have jointly agreed not to source true hidden weld alloy frames for the fact it might negatively impact on carbon bike sales. Or perhaps they intend to all start making them sometime in the future and declare the true "new age of aluminium" is upon us all. I mean we've had Merida and Specialized doing smooth and now we have Trek doing even smoother..

Now the Khers is gone though (and as of now, still yet to be replaced) the only bike brand I know of doing an alloy frame that looks to have true hidden welds (and i'm talking only from seing file pictures here, so i can't be 100% sure) is the Rose Pro SL. If i'm right, it's worth noting the Pro SL is a remarkably light aluminium frame too which would seem to dispel any theory that a weight penalty could be part of why true smooth weld alloy bikes are so rare

I'd love to hear any ideas or insights regarding true hidden weld frames. Why are they so rare? There surely has to be solid reason(s)? To be honest (and i say this as somebody who has a carbon road bike too- also Olympia as it happens) it looks great up to the point when the time comes to buy my next aluminium bike I feel like I'll be annoyed if i can't find one i like with true hidden weldings.

Hmm, maybe the Rose Pro SL, if i like next years colour schemes as that frame is certainly geometrically very nice looking in my opinion.

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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17 comments

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Shades | 4 years ago
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I've got a 2000 Cannondale aluminium bike with smooth welds, although the frame is marked 'made in the USA', suspect that's not the case now with frame manufacturing moved to the far east.

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antigee | 4 years ago
1 like

'Woaw..The Nikolai bikes have huge welds! I guess that's one original way to approach a MTB frame welding if you don't want to hide the welds. Industrial chic, nice choice of words."

their approach makes some sense and suspect is a bit more than industrial chic...might be wrong but one of the problems with welding the 6000 and 7000 series heat treatable aluminium alloys is overheating of the parent metal tubes and potential for intercrystalline cracking in the Heat Affected Zone (of the weld)....one way to avoid this is use relatively unalloyed aluminium filler rods...melt at a lower temp' and less prone to contraction cracking on cooling another known problem with welding aluminium....problem  is the weld metal isn't as strong as the tubes so a lot of it is needed to ensure the weld is at least as strong as the tube...this may or may not be what you are seeing here....as to Trek they seem to be looking at it the hard way...that is very smart design of the geometry of the  weld area and presumably modelling of heat input and weld restraint to end up with those highly desirable smooth welds

disclaimer not a materials engineer or welding technologist  though do have a degree in metallurgy  and worked in high temp metals (so not aluminium!) for many years 

 

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newrider7 | 4 years ago
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Woaw..The Nikolai bikes have huge welds! I guess that's one original way to approach a MTB frame welding if you don't want to hide the welds. Industrial chic, nice choice of words.

Personally if I'm having welds visible on an aluminium or steel road bike though I like them not too big and neat. Like i said in an earlier post I'm absolutely not saying tidy welds are ugly. You see the craftsmanship and on one hand that's a totally elegant thing, seeing a frame in it's organic beauty.

Ironically, I must say though the hidden welds were one of the very things that attracted me to the Olympia khers- the fact i could have a new aluminium bike without welds. You see i'd bought a brand new full carbon bike only a dozen months earlier (which i still have and which has had no problems and which i like a great deal) BUT i wanted a new aluminium bike too as my previous one was very run down and more to the point it was a cheap aluminium bike weighing just over 11kg.

Unless there is a negative affect on ride quality (and i'm really fond of the Khers) I think there should be far more hidden weld alloy bikes for sale. I don't suspect I will ever be satisfied with only a carbon bike so I don't see why I shouldn't have plenty of aluminium choices with the same weldless look if I want one. If aluminium can look seamless like carbon we should have the choice. I doubt i'm the only person who has bought a carbon bike, been thoroughly pleased he/she did so, but not lost their love for metal bikes either.

I suppose a valid downside that some people have correctly pointed out here is that you don't know what the welds look like under there, but I think i'd chance it since non competant (even if it's ugly) welding is rather rare with any half decent brand. 

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Miller | 4 years ago
2 likes

Because there's no good reason to hide the welds. A well-executed weld has a certain industrial chic, have a look at frames from German MTB brand Nikolai to see what I mean. Sanding a weld risks thinning the frame tubes and using filler can cover up poor quality welding.  If you're buying an alloy frame then you get visible welds. If you want smooth, get carbon.

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newrider7 | 4 years ago
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Thanks for that interesting link. I must remind everyone I did title the forum topic true *hidden* weld alloy frames, even saying in the OP it was not really any foul of Merida and Specialized talking "smooth" since they may indeed be slightly smoothed but felt it was off for Trek to be calling their new welds "Invisible weld technology" and (I quote Trek)..."with our new Invisible weld technology the welds are just that - Invisible" when they clearly are not .

So I suppose we can assume the latest Rose SL Pro pretty much utilizes the same trick as the Halford's, the Olympia and any aluminium bike for that matter sporting truly invisible welds.

Question still stands for me, why is it so relatively rare to see if it appears to not be a cost prohibitive procedure. Collective feeling among the bike industry's biggest names that it potentially could negatively impacts on carbon bike sales or that bike frame engineers see it as negatively impacting on ride quality?

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antigee | 4 years ago
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here we go...a weld full of filler...google is my friend....need to differentiate between painted welds that appear smooth and welds that are inherently relatively smooth 

not sure if this was the post I recalled but has a pic and it was the same brand

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aluminium-welds-what-is-this-pi...

 

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newrider7 | 4 years ago
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Thanks for further replies all of you.

Looking at google photos for fillet brazed frames It does indeed seem to resemble some good examples of that. And yes, from looking at pics of the Boardman bikes they do seem to have as best i can see, the same sort of hidden weldings. And lastly yep, just because welds are buried doesn't mean the welds underneath are good, true. I suppose that's why i called them "buried" a few times in previous posts (being layman..totally unaware of any of the correct terms for all the types of smooth welding).
Olympia like Boardman merely briefly mentioned in it's product description the bike had a "smooth welds".

So, this process, if also used by Boardman, a somewhat budget, if not disrespected brand, selling at competitive prices, seems perhaps not to be very exotic (as in it probably doesn't cost any premium) why don't more brands do it? I can only think it's considered to negatively impact the ride quality.

I don't want to speculate. I'm just confused. For me it looks very nice to have truly invisible welds on an aluminium bike.

And returning to the current Rose SL pro again...the welds on that also appear well and truly invisible. Is that using the same burying process as my Olympia and these Boardman's?

Just seems strange to me you have these few brands producing alloy frames with entirely invisible welds then you have countless big player brands like Merida, Specialized talking their asses off about their smooth weldings and they aren't hidden at all....Trek, touting their newly patented "Invisible Weld Technology" and the welds aren't invisible.

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antigee | 4 years ago
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pretty sure i recall seeing a pic of a weld on an aluminium frame that had been sanded down with intent to lacquer the bare ali' frame  with the poster complaining couldn't do because the welds were all smoothed out with what looked like some sort of "polyfiller" 

....useless without a pic I guess but smooth welds aren't always when they have a layer of paint concealing how they get to be smooth 

 

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mattD | 4 years ago
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Are you talking about the type of hidden welding that is used on every aluminimum bike in the Boardman range? They have on bikes costing from £500 - https://www.boardmanbikes.com/gb_en/products/2138-adv-8.9.html

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Secret_squirrel | 4 years ago
2 likes

Im not even sure you have the terminology right.   Arent you talking about the equivalent of fillet brazing for Alu?  thats not what I would call hidden welds.

 

As for why its not more common its the same as its steel equivalent - its more effort as others have mentioned.

Ironically Trek do have form in this area from years ago - look how  Klein welds deteriorated after they got bought.

http://www.oldklein.com/vanha/klein_evolution.htm

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crazy-legs | 4 years ago
4 likes

Nothing to do with ride quality (in fact I doubt that there's even a measurable difference in riding based on weld look!), it's a purely marketing thing.

Also, you're massively overthinking things. It's a new bike that they have to sell and they have a big marketing department to keep busy! Sadly for Trek, the easy marketing days of telling people that it's what Lance rides are long gone...   3

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newrider7 | 4 years ago
0 likes

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Looking at the Mango frames (at least the ones on the website), i would say they are welds very close to hidden.. a bit like the new Trek's, maybe even slightly better, but still visible. On the recently discontinued Olympia Khers (and seemingly also the current Rose SL Pro) they are entirely buried or otherwise invisible.

Has anybody got an example of any other frames (currently offered or in the past) with truly hidden weldings? Not almost hidden but invisible.

Like i said in my original post I believe (though could be mistaken) there was a particular model of the alu "Team" by DeRosa several years ago that had true hidden welds but i can't find the picture anymore (and it appears some generation models of the Team certainly didn't have hidden welds)

There has got to be (a) ride quality drawbacks or (b) the bike industry collectively don't want to make them cause they think it would negatively impact on the carbon market (and perhaps the process is slightly more costly).

That's my take. It's got to be a or b here. A lot of people want and love aluminium bikes and while i'm not suggesting tidy traditional welds are ugly, i don't buy the idea that out of those people many would not aesthetically favour frames with completely invisible welds providing there was no negative effect to ride quality (and if they didn't really cost more to buy).

Not sure we'll be getting to the bottom of this one but I'll hang on in hope. Thanks again.

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Xenophon2 replied to newrider7 | 4 years ago
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newrider7 wrote:

Has anybody got an example of any other frames (currently offered or in the past) with truly hidden weldings? Not almost hidden but invisible. Like i said in my original post I believe (though could be mistaken) there was a particular model of the alu "Team" by DeRosa several years ago that had true hidden welds but i can't find the picture anymore (and it appears some generation models of the Team certainly didn't have hidden welds) There has got to be (a) ride quality drawbacks or (b) the bike industry collectively don't want to make them cause they think it would negatively impact on the carbon market (and perhaps the process is slightly more costly). That's my take. It's got to be a or b here. A lot of people want and love aluminium bikes and while i'm not suggesting tidy traditional welds are ugly, i don't buy the idea that out of those people many would not aesthetically favour frames with completely invisible welds providing there was no negative effect to ride quality (and if they didn't really cost more to buy). Not sure we'll be getting to the bottom of this one but I'll hang on in hope. Thanks again.

 

Passoni come close on their current models.  They used to make a particular model in 'Titanio puro' where the (Titanium) welds were truly invisible.  Perfection.  I saw one up close in person and couldn't see a thing, it was a smooth, organic weld.  This was back in 2007 if memory serves, it was a limited edition.  Never had the chance to ride it then and the owner currently lives in Switzerland, he still rides that bike.

Buutttt.....Passoni produce only 2 totally custom made titanium alloy bikes/day in their factory and when you take a look at the price you'll quickly understand why they can afford touching perfection.  I can't find it now but remember an interview where the manager said that polishing and shaping the welds while ensuring that the frame's strength was not affected took a lot of care, manual labour and was thus very costly.  I really think that's all there is to it.  It makes no sense doing this on a simple alloy frame that will sell for 1000 EUR max.  Nobody (or very few people) in that market segment will want to shell out 1500 to have invisible welds.  If you go exclusive, custom manufacturing and high end materials, anything's possible and someone who is willing to pay 8k for a frameset will not sniff if delivering perfect welds accounts for 1k of that price.  At that level the percentage cost becomes trivial, as presumably does the total cost if you have pocket money like that to spend on a bike.

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Nick T | 4 years ago
6 likes

How many alloy frames do you think specialized sell each year? Few million probably? Would it be cost effective to increase production times and factory costs by maybe 20-50%? Would they sell any more alloy frames because of it?

its alloy, it's the fourth tier frame material, no one buys it for its "perfect" fabrication 

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Mybike | 4 years ago
5 likes

Good welds are not always pretty I rather have a strong weld that look ugly then a pretty one that weak. Go for a frame that fit and rides nice. You don't see the welds while riding

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vonhelmet | 4 years ago
2 likes

Holy wall of text batman.

My Mango frameset cost about £300 and the welds at the head tube and the seat collar area are very smooth so go figure.

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CyclingInBeastMode | 4 years ago
0 likes

Why the Olympia was cheap I couldn't say, if you like it and it does what you need to and give you joy riding then one has to respect that, however extrapolating from that that other makers can do true smooth weld easily or cheaply AND produce a frame that rides nicely. it doesn't work like that unfortunately.

I did look at the specialized welds a while back and they looked quite nice but a frame isn't always about looks, a couple of times I've bought a bike and then after a few rides come away dissapointed and moved it on straight away.

Hydroforming could lose some weight but looking at other high end frames from 15+ years ago like the Principia RS6 Pro which was a smidge over 1100g in a 55 and were, as with the rest of the Principia range, very much loved for their performance, they'd have to be going some to match that and maintain what you want from it. Let's be honest whilst alu like carbon can be inexpensive, the market is absolutely saturated and there are no niche markets with bikes available in every nook and cranny.

I'd rather prefer a filet brazed steel frame in terms of the look, smooth weld for an alu frame is just not really increasing the look enough for me to want it, others see it differently of course.

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