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Hi , I’m new to cycling and instead of going out and buying a new bike I thought id repair this bike that was in the garage of a property I bought and try it out before spending big money . I’ve cleaned it up, stuck some tires and some new cables on it but the back tire was rubbing on the frame. I stuck a bit of lead under the axel which gives it about 1mm clearance and id 40 miles on it without dying. Ill add some picture, if anyone can tell me what is wrong and if it’s worth me spending any money to fix it up properly that would be great.

I believe it is a claud butler, looking online I think it’s about 1998

Reynolds 653 frame 

Campagnolo avanti groupset

Mavic cxp 10 rims

 

Any help would be much appreciated

25 comments

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rickypjonesy [7 posts] 1 month ago
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a picture off the bike 

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rickypjonesy [7 posts] 1 month ago
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and a picture of my problem .

this it with my lead packer 

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Boatsie [354 posts] 1 month ago
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That's beautiful dude.
I get about the same clearance. If it ain't rubbing it's rolling.
Tyres have different heights. Probably just that. I use big tyres to avoid hassles such as flats but I lost all the cog combinations on single speed to do such (edited).

https://youtu.be/ZZbVsrYPOGE

Maybe easier to check out tyre heights when they wear or sooner and have a spare front if field changing is an issue.
But if it ain't a hassle to fit in field then the larger volume in the rear would certainly bring additional benefits as per video suggests (retro bike vs modern bike) with a higher load capacity to accommodate bumps, coordination, etc.
Love your bike, she's a beauty

Edit:
I love that era of bikes. They're so comfy. They're fast. They're easy maintenance.
Old mate was funny one day, riding similar. He took it easy while I kept up. His resting heart beat was 30bpm though. His old lady was wondering if I was dead when we stopped to drink/finish.
That style of bike to me is super comfy, quick enough, ultra reliable (especially when drop tube shifting) and encourages blokes like me to get the hours in (slightly less kms compared to modern ultra light streamline aero models) because they're well made to suit men.
That's pretty much an opinion; an awesome riding quality.

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OldRidgeback [3185 posts] 1 month ago
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That is a lovely bike as the other post says. Yep, a different tyre choice might help. And I agree that bikes of that vintage can be really nice to ride. It's a quality frame.

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CygnusX1 [1169 posts] 1 month ago
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To answer your question, in the post title ... YES, absolutely. 

I assume your lead packing is in the rear drop-outs? Whilst this is working now I suspect it will quickly wear out resulting in contact between tyre and frame.  Have you tried taking it to a local bike shop (LBS)?

Your LBS should be able to advise on whether it is simply tyre choice , or something more serious.  Assuming tyres are the issue, they will also probably be able to recommend which will have a lower profile  and sell you some.

Don't simply take their advice and buy online - that advice has just saved you the trial/error of several tyres to find the one that fits - worth paying a little bit extra to keep your LBS in business

 

 

 

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fixation80 [70 posts] 1 month ago
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Perhaps it was an out and out race bike built with tubs (21/22mm) and close clearances in mind!

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Boatsie [354 posts] 1 month ago
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fixation80 wrote:

Perhaps it was an out and out race bike built with tubs (21/22mm) and close clearances in mind!

Wreck in shed like that. A tiny bit younger but came with 700c19. 700c23 is a tight fit.
Walls ain't rubbing though hence your issue is profile not width. With certainty; an LBS will know.
I laugh with my mate, he rolls a 28 front, 25 rear and asked if that normal. I don't know. My fronts are fatter then my rears too. We just laugh and exercise. Goes fast enough.  3

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rickypjonesy [7 posts] 1 month ago
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Thanks for your help.

The tyres I put on it are 700 x 20c, do they do lower profile tyres than that? I took it to a bike shop and they thought it was a bit strange. They measured a few things to see if the frame was straight. After a bit of head scratching I just said ill pack it out and see how it goes.

I wouldn’t class myself as a cyclist but I have become quite fond of this bike and was thinking of getting it re sprayed as it’s a bit scabby at the moment , just wanted to check that there isn’t something obvious wrong with the frame.

 

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mike the bike [1238 posts] 1 month ago
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I had a Claud Butler once, about thirty years ago; it was alright but never considered amongst the top tier of frames.  Nevertheless, it's worth restoring and if the rear dropouts are restricting your tyre choice, could they be reshaped?  That's a problem for a metalsmith to answer but it might be a cheap solution?

Best of luck.

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shufflingb [71 posts] 1 month ago
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Hi,

I had a look at a similar bike for sale over here https://www.gumtree.com/p/bicycles/claud-butler-professional-road-racing-bike-reynolds-653-campagnolo-/1299108501 , or more precisely the image of it here https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/z9QAAOSwo1pa~WWw/$_86.JPG

That bike's got 700x20c's on it and it has plenty of clearance. 

So my suspects would be:

  1. The packing above the axle is moving the wheel forward and causing the problem.
  2. The tyres are not 700x20c
  3. Depending on reputability of manufacturer - tyres are not correctly sized.
  4. Worn dropouts.

Fwiw, in terms of the packing; it's pretty easy to get the axle in the wrong position when fitting a wheel in its dropouts. Close original fitting tyres, a tight chain because of gear selection and not quite knowing the technique, might well give the  impression of needing a correction.

In terms of that technique; I'm sure Park Tools et. al. will have a nice video, but I go with chain on smallest gears front rear.  Then fit the rear wheel loosely, before balancing the bike on its wheels, slacking off the axle to allow gravity and me leaning on, wiggling the bike to help centre and move the axle fully rearward in its dropouts. Finally, as it's easy to disturb the axle position, carefully tighten it all back up while continuing to balance the bike to ensure the axle doesn't move forward.

The bike's definitely worth a bit of a faff; nice ones seem to be going for reasonable money on eBay.

Good luck.

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Dingaling [109 posts] 1 month ago
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Could this frame have been designed for 27" wheels instead of 28"?

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Drinfinity [235 posts] 1 month ago
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Maybe, but the rims and brakes match, so unless both have been changed at some stage it needs a skinnier tyre, and a smooth road. 

Looks like it has braze-ons  for downtube shifters? I’d restore it to those, and ditch the brifters that don’t go with the quill stem.

Id also keep the original paint job - that fade is nice.

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CygnusX1 [1169 posts] 1 month ago
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Dingaling wrote:

Could this frame have been designed for 27" wheels instead of 28"?

I had that thought too, but the OP seems to think its a 1990s frame - if so, I doubt the frame was designed for anything other than 700c wheels.

I did think maybe the chain is too short so is pulling the wheel in the dropout - I see someone else has suggested this as well.

I'm old enough to remember 700cx18 (ISO 18-622) tyres, but these are a rare breed these days: https://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/i-dont-see-any-700x18-cli...

Although the 18 refers to tyre width, its also a pretty close measure of the height, so the narrower the tyre the more frame clearance you will get.

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Smartstu [21 posts] 1 month ago
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It's a Reynolds 653 frame and forks is it not? Nice lugs and lovely forks. Don't know the maker - but certainly pretty decent?

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matthewn5 [1372 posts] 3 weeks ago
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Does it have vertical dropouts at the rear or the older, so-called 'horizontal' (actuall angled) dropouts?

//www.slowtwitch.com/articles/images/0/62550-largest_Sheldon_dropouts.jpg)

I've found the thickness of chrome on the 'horizontal' dropouts sometimes stops the axle sliding as far back as it needs to. A bit of light filing works wonders.

You can also adjust the position of the axle with the small screws, once you're sure that the axle actually fits properly into the slot.

Reynolds 653 was considered to build up into a very stiff and racey frame back in the day. My Brian Rourke from 2000 is 653, it's brilliant. The bike looks like a keeper to me, good find!

Brifters were introduced in the early 1990s, so it looks to me to be entirely original.

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matthewn5 [1372 posts] 3 weeks ago
1 like

Does it have vertical dropouts at the rear or the older, so-called 'horizontal' (actuall angled) dropouts?

//www.slowtwitch.com/articles/images/0/62550-largest_Sheldon_dropouts.jpg)

I've found the thickness of chrome on the 'horizontal' dropouts sometimes stops the axle sliding as far back as it needs to. A bit of light filing works wonders.

You can also adjust the position of the axle with the small screws, once you're sure that the axle actually fits properly into the slot.

Reynolds 653 was considered to build up into a very stiff and racey frame back in the day. My Brian Rourke from 2000 is 653, it's brilliant. The bike looks like a keeper to me, good find!

Brifters were introduced in the early 1990s, so it looks to me to be entirely original.

One thing: the loop of cable to the rear derailleur should go outside the seatstay, not inside!

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mattsccm [421 posts] 3 weeks ago
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Unless he has some very wierd Dutch rims in, so called 28" is also 700c and thus smaller than 27" . Just look at the markings on so many tyres. 

If the axle slot is a slot the wheel will move fore and aft. If it's vertical then it won't and there is a simple tyre clearance issue due to the era of the bike. It could have been built as a TT bike for example with 19mm tyres in mind. If its horizontal then it will move. After all the wheel must go in so must have some clearance as it moves back, even a touch, to locate. 

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David9694 [117 posts] 3 weeks ago
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That rear gear cable is way too long and should be on the outside, not the inside of the frame. 

Not sure I understand the axle packing you’ve done.

Did you see anything else like it when you searched around on line? What makes you think it might be a Claud Butler?

Your rear calliper looks to be almost at the end of its adjustment - what type is it? Looks like standard short reach in the pictures, so that just intensifies the mystery of why your rear wheel (is that a yellow Mavic rim label I can see?) is so close to the seat tube.  I can’t see any reason (e.g. touring, really small frame size) for it to have been designed to run say 26” wheels. You’ve presumably positioned the wheel at the very back of the dropout? Your tyre isn’t exactly a chunky monkey. A super narrow rim will throw the tyre further outwards.

I wouldn’t recommend investing  in re-finishing this frame until you get to the bottom of this. I’d suggest touching-up for example the dinks on the cross bar for now.  This issue is sure to cause you problems in the longer run.  That straight fork suggests a close clearance build.  It’s not a track bike as such, but maybe it was intended for this type of use?

Sometimes bikes get sold or discarded because someone has upgraded, sometimes it’s because they’ve lost interest, sometimes it’s because they went out and got a bike with a design issue like this one appears to have.  It’s really rare for frame and bike makers to get things wrong, so I hope you find there is an explanation.

 

 

 

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rickypjonesy [7 posts] 3 weeks ago
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I saw that little nib thing on the inside and thought the cable must go round that enlightened . I will change it and shorten it immediately.​

cheers

 

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ktache [1850 posts] 3 weeks ago
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That nib is to stretch the chain over when you have the rear wheel out.

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rickypjonesy [7 posts] 3 weeks ago
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I Know it’s a Claud butler because when I found it had the decals on, I used a jet wash when trying to clean it up but it ripped them off. I’ve just found a picture from when I first found it. It looks like the tyre clearance isn’t too bad but I think that might be because the tyre is flat.

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rickypjonesy [7 posts] 3 weeks ago
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it has a vertical drop out . i have put a red where i packed the axel off . i could just get it into possition and tighten it but i dont fancy it dropping in and catching mid bike ride . What small screws are you talking about for ajusting the axel ? 

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David9694 [117 posts] 3 weeks ago
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If you go back up to the pictures of rear drop outs, the Campagnolo type have adjuster screws to stop the axle going further backwards and the wheel going out of alignment.  They’re less common these days.  You have to close the QR on this type really tight to prevent movement when you put a spurt on.

You’ve clearly got the vertical or semi vertical type  - but  I’m still not sure I understand the purpose of the packing - did this give you more clearance behind the seat tube that you didn’t have before ?(that seems to be what you caption is saying.)

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rickypjonesy [7 posts] 2 weeks ago
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Yes, gives me just enough clearance to stop it rubbing .

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David9694 [117 posts] 2 weeks ago
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You’ve presumably already found this ad, which lists some original components: https://picclick.co.uk/CLAUD-BUTLER-PROFESSIONAL-Road-Racing-Bike-Reynol...

I don’t doubt that your tyres say they are 20mm, but as was suggested earlier, some makers can be a bit creative in this area and as it’s a few mm that represents the difference between success and failure... anyway, read all about it here:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

Re reading this thread, it’s also sounding like you may be struggling a bit with getting the rear wheel in and out? I find on my bike with these dropouts that the plastic end of the QR skewer hits the circular housing where the derailleur bolt is. If you unscrew remove the skewer completely you should find that the wheel goes in without too much bother.

If you’re  having seriously to pull the two back ends outward to get the wheel in, or otherwise wrestle with it, that could point To another issue.

What I’m driving at and it’s a long shot because I think your wheels probably are the originals, is a possible mis-match in widths.  Measure from the inside edges the horizontal gap between your two (vertical) drop outs. You should get 130mm, which is the standard for road bikes. The distance between the outsides of the outermost bolts on the hub should be the same.