[Craggy]

Occasionally people post on here about near-miss incidents when cycling on the road, with questions about what might follow in terms of police and potential court appearances. I went through the whole shebang last year, and wrote my experiences up for a local cycling group’s newsletter.

If you’re interested, or going through a similar process, you can read the long version of what happened from my perspective here: https://fromthecraggyhills.wordpress.com/2018/01/21/rule-163/

I also linked this in the comments on the original road.cc article at http://road.cc/content/news/222195-video-van-driver-forces-cyclist-road-qc-offers-help-sue, but now realise it’s fairly lost just there.

Topic

[fenix]

Craggy wrote:

@fenix I disagree, not only for the oppression analogy raised by @Bikebikebike but also because I have been hit by a wing mirror at around 50 mph in a B road close pass and I firmly believe that inconsiderate road users will remain ignorant if there are no repercussions to them as individuals.

 

I’m not sure anyone performing a close pass is that concerned about your wellbeing.  If you’re hitting their car then I’d not put it past them to run you off the road or even attack you – as we’ve seen. 

 

I’m all for making them pay for their actions – but not at the cost of my safety.  Video them and report them. 

[Crampy]

CygnusX1 wrote:

Crampy wrote:

The muppet who gets to decide on the case is a volunteer with no legal background? 

This arouses two thoughts;

 

1 – The English law system is certainly well and truly fucked up.

2 – Can I volunteer to play judge too?

Re #1 – Its not perfect, but its the model your own (I’m guessing you’re a US or Canadian citizen) legal system is based. Magistrates courts deal with less serious cases (and some more serious where a guilty plea is entered) and free up the higher courts (Crown Court – UK, District Court – US) for trial by jury.   

Re #2 – If you want … https://www.gov.uk/become-magistrate (you do get some basic training).

 

 

 

Hey! Thanks for the reply. I am not used to getting those around here (well, those that don’t telle to to go fuck myself, at least). 

Im neither Yank or Canuck, me – I’m much worse. Scottish. We have our own legal system that is pretty much as crappy as the English one…

I’m happily living in Norway, though – so I don’t need to deal with the UK law system. It does mean, however, that I can’t apply to play pretend judge either and that makes me a little sad.

They only have qualified law folks here.

Although at certain levels of the judicial system in Norway you can be tried and judged by a panel of two judges and three laymen – now that is fucking scary… There has been a couple pof cases where guys have been caught bang to rights for serious crimes, like rape, the two qualified judges have said guilty, but the ramdom folks (chosen, like jury duty) have said not guilty. 

So I guess no legal system in completely fault free, eh?

 

[CygnusX1]

Crampy wrote:

The muppet who gets to decide on the case is a volunteer with no legal background? 

This arouses two thoughts;

 

1 – The English law system is certainly well and truly fucked up.

2 – Can I volunteer to play judge too?

Re #1 – Its not perfect, but its the model your own (I’m guessing you’re a US or Canadian citizen) legal system is based. Magistrates courts deal with less serious cases (and some more serious where a guilty plea is entered) and free up the higher courts (Crown Court – UK, District Court – US) for trial by jury.   

Re #2 – If you want … https://www.gov.uk/become-magistrate (you do get some basic training).

 

 

[Craggy]

Apologies for the delay in

Apologies for the delay in responding – the forum wouldn’t accept my attempts to respond on my phone’s browser. To those that have said thanks for writing/posting etc., you’re welcome, it’s been cathartic. Also thanks to anyone who took to our defence in forums here and elsewhere; James did enjoy the occasional comparison to Peter Sagan!

@fenix I disagree, not only for the oppression analogy raised by @Bikebikebike but also because I have been hit by a wing mirror at around 50 mph in a B road close pass and I firmly believe that inconsiderate road users will remain ignorant if there are no repercussions to them as individuals.

@zero_trooper all true! I’d only add that the although clerk provided legal advice, the magistrate judged the grounds for mitigation based on what has been presented in the trial.

@BehindTheBikeSheds I’ll stick up for the CPS because without them there would have been no trial. As I understand it they’re the legal equivalent of the NHS.

[Crampy]

So the driver was an ex con

So the driver was an ex con with a list of previous as long as your arm, and a history of violence? Therefore he gets kudos from the magistrate for not hauling off and beating the two of you to a pulp with the first blunt object he lays hands on?

Riding in primary position (middle of lane) is equatable to riding in the “middle of the road” and is therefore a contributing factor to the dangerous ex cons rage and subsequent vehicular assault?

The muppet who gets to decide on the case is a volunteer with no legal background? 

This arouses two thoughts;

 

1 – The English law system is certainly well and truly fucked up.

2 – Can I volunteer to play judge too?

[RMurphy195]

Thanks for this Craggy, it

Thanks for this Craggy, it was very enlightening.

I suspect – or would hope – that if the defendant had continued with his not guilty plea then the misleading info re road positioning, rule 163 etc. would have been introduced and clarified by the prosecution, but since a guilty plea was entered and the right result was obtained, then thats what counts.

Right to want to keep your anonymity – last year I had a great shot of scramblers running a red light, and head on towards me, in a tunnel on one of the main cycle routes into Birmingham. The police took the video and kept it for a while, but decided not to publish it on social media and advised me not to. The reason? – the bikers concerned were quite likley to remember the incident, and work out where the video came from/what I looked like. They have not been caught – no number plates, and face masks. 

[davel]

fenix wrote:

fenix wrote:

35 years of cycling. 

A bike vs an angry driver in a tonne of car – it’s not going to end well for the cyclist. 

Just look at the last example on here – Tuggles putting himself off balance.

 

The only reason to bang on a car is to make yourself feel better.  You do sound quite angry. Do you hit many cars ?

I ‘sound’ angry, based on a few words on a Web forum? You ‘sound’ pretty simple… And very judgemental.

I have hit a few cars/vans: not with the intention of damaging the vehicle, you understand… Real mixed responses… From shocked ‘shit mate, sorry!’ to getting out and kicking off.

Number of times I’ve been run over: zero.

Number of times I’ve been hit: zero.

Number of times I’ve registered that they’re driving way too close to a lump of flesh: each and every last one of them.

Crack on and do it your way. But don’t preach and patronise about your way of kowtowing to your moton masters being the best.

[fenix]

35 years of cycling. 

35 years of cycling. 

A bike vs an angry driver in a tonne of car – it’s not going to end well for the cyclist. 

Just look at the last example on here – Tuggles putting himself off balance.

 

The only reason to bang on a car is to make yourself feel better.  You do sound quite angry. Do you hit many cars ?

[davel]

fenix wrote:

fenix wrote:

davel wrote:

fenix wrote:

Bikebikebike – you’ll learn the best way for self preservation one day…

…and to keep the status quo. Which is going so well for us, yes?

Entirely up to you – but time and time again banging on vehicles has just made the situation worse.

Get a camera and report the incident – at least we can see drivers are getting prosecuted for it and it’s being publicised.  How you think punching  a car helps your safety at the time is beyond me. 

OK, now you seem to be suggesting you have data that you can show, or you possess omniscience.

Because the alternative would be that you’re making a fuckton of assumptions about others’ experiences based entirely on your own experiences, which would be very silly.

And you’re not silly… You have data, or are omniscient.

Sooo… Be so kind as to post the data, or let me know which deity you are so I can leave a suitable offering.

[fenix]

davel wrote:

davel wrote:

fenix wrote:

Bikebikebike – you’ll learn the best way for self preservation one day…

…and to keep the status quo. Which is going so well for us, yes?

Entirely up to you – but time and time again banging on vehicles has just made the situation worse.

Get a camera and report the incident – at least we can see drivers are getting prosecuted for it and it’s being publicised.  How you think punching  a car helps your safety at the time is beyond me. 

[tugglesthegreat]

fenix wrote:

Bikebikebike wrote:

fenix wrote:

Blimey. He almost got away with it.

One thing I’d say though – never hit a car/van – you don’t know who is inside and most drivers see red at this kind of thing.  We can’t win in bike v car fights.

An escalation is only going to end in harm to one party.

Well done on seeing it through.

If someone passes closes enough to palm then that’s what I am going to do.  

No point in having the moral high ground if you’re in a hospital bed or worse. You’ve just seen how even an attack captured on video of an ex con with a criminal record as long as your arm almost ended with the guy getting off.  

 

Plus taking your hand off the bars in an already dodgy situation just makes it much more likely that something bad will happen.

Temptation got the better of me last year and tried to palm a people carrier who was super close, only to find my arm inside the vehicle because they were that close and had the window down.  My arm was hit by window upright!  So I just put myself off balance with one arm on my bars – made my position worse.

 

[Anonymous]

as others have said, yet

as others have said, yet again this identifies how weak our system is protecting the vulnerable particularly on the roads. I also don’t understand how the police think dangerous driving is a more serious offence than attempted GBH which is clearly what happened and links in perfectly with his previous.

CPS are a load of wank and have been for far too long and magistrates and judges at higher level are clearly not fit for purpose and are part of the problem as to why criminals are literally getting away with murder.

[zero_trooper]

Great write up Craggy. A full

Great write up Craggy. A full trial for the defendant i.e. a not-guilty plea, would not have gone well for him as you could have explained fully your perfectly reasonable actions from the witness box. Also, he would have have to have explained his unreasonable actions.

Regarding the magistrates (there was more than one?), they should be taking any legal advice required from the Clerk to the Justices, who normally sits just infront of them and effectively runs the show.

For cases of driving without due care and attention and dangerous driving (and some other motoring offences I can’t remember, speeding is one) the police have to issue a Notice of Intended Prosecution within 14 days of the incident. It’s a rather wordy A4 form which acts as a jog to the driver’s memory about the incident reported. It can be issued verbally at the time (e.g. a police officer witnessed the incident), but best practice to put it in writing. It does not have to be sent to the actual driver, just to the registered keeper of the motor vehicle. Within the 14 days. No NIP, no prosecution, tho’ there are some exceptions such as a collision which the driver would have been aware of.

I’ve been retired from the police longer than I care to remember, but believe that the above is accurate.

[davel]

fenix wrote:

fenix wrote:

Bikebikebike – you’ll learn the best way for self preservation one day…

…and to keep the status quo.

Which is going so well for us, yes?

[ChrisB200SX]

Grahamd wrote:

Thanks for posting, appears that the magistrate could do with some training on the Highway Code.

 

This gets me. As they are probably a driver, they should already know the highway code very well, just like all-driver juries that find killer drivers not guilty when it’s a cyclist that’s the victim.

[Author]

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