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Front / Rear - weight / aero?

Thinking in real world terms for an amateur where money does matter, where is it best spent?

Im thinking a semi aero front wheel and a lighter shallower rear wheel would be most effective? Ive no evidence to back this up but thats what my logic tells me.

Does the weight of the front wheel matter as much as the rear?

Does the aero profile of the rear wheel matter as much as the front?

As always I love to hear your opinions and advice please

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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14 comments

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Windydog | 8 years ago
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Agree, that there is no such thing as need.  Marginal gains for serious outlay.

But if "want" translates to "get",  and this in turn gets you happy and out on it more often, then you will be faster.  QED cool bikes are faster bikes.  Deeper sections can be cool, but aesthetically go for shallower front if needs must, it don't look right the other way.  

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Simon E | 8 years ago
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Also, since modern 700c rims only weigh about 450g so when you buy lighter wheels you won't be saving much weight off here anyway.

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Simon E | 8 years ago
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It seems that the rotating weight myth refuses to die.

You lose more speed by lifting your head, taking your arm off the bars to wave or grab a drink, gel or bar. 99.9% of riders would gain far more by working on their pedal stroke and breathing technique.

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surly_by_name replied to Simon E | 8 years ago
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Simon E wrote:

IYou lose more speed by lifting your head, taking your arm off the bars to wave or grab a drink, gel or bar. 99.9% of riders would gain far more by working on their pedal stroke and breathing technique.

Simplest way for most recreational cyclists to make aero gains is to get off the hoods and ride in the drops.

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fukawitribe replied to surly_by_name | 8 years ago
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surly_by_name wrote:

Simon E wrote:

IYou lose more speed by lifting your head, taking your arm off the bars to wave or grab a drink, gel or bar. 99.9% of riders would gain far more by working on their pedal stroke and breathing technique.

Simplest way for most recreational cyclists to make aero gains is to get off the hoods and ride in the drops.

I believe*  it's generally more aero to stay on the hoods but bend your arms so the forearms are more horizontal than to straighten the arms more and reach for the drops. Obviously if you're flexible enough to flatten your forearms whilst in the drops and still generate normal power then you're onto a winner - but that boat's sailed for me (assuming it was ever in port...).

 

 

* There was a article/review not too long ago about that.. can't find it at the moment but will dig.

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AKH | 8 years ago
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The wheels don’t meaningfully slow down in the fraction of a second between pedal strokes. Think about it; assuming no slippage between the tyre and the road surface, the RPM of the wheel is directly related to your forward speed. If the RPM of the wheel was changing meaningfully in the split second that you ease off the power in a pedal stroke, then your forward speed would also vary. You’d be surging forward like a learner driver on the clutch.

Also, consider what happens when you freewheel. Your body, which weighs many, many times the weight of the whole bike, yet alone the wheels, has significant forward momentum. In that fraction of a second where your power drops during the pedal stroke, the forward momentum of *you* keeps the bike moving forward, and therefore the wheels turning, assuming again that there is no slippage between the tyre and the road.

 

Manufactures don’t play on rotating weight not because they can’t measure it, but because they would rather let the myth continue, than shoot themselves in the foot by debunking it.

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madcarew | 8 years ago
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The idea that rotational weight is un-important is clearly ignored by every wheel manufacturer ever, for very good reason. When it comes to simply the weight of the wheel at constant speed over a given gradient, then weight is *almost* immaterial. But that's not how we ride, as every pedal stroke (particularly on a steep gradient) accelerates the wheel so adds to the energy 'drain' on the cyclist.

The answer to the OP's question is very dependent on their riding. Are they road racing, criterium racing, time trialling, hill climbing etc etc. 

Saving 400gm on a wheel, if at the rim, will have an enormous difference on most riding done at the higher end of a cyclists power output. In a bunch, the aero has almost no effect at all, but due to the surges and accelerations, the weight will be important. 

So, the answer is.. it depends!

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wycombewheeler replied to madcarew | 8 years ago
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madcarew wrote:

The idea that rotational weight is un-important is clearly ignored by every wheel manufacturer ever, for very good reason. When it comes to simply the weight of the wheel at constant speed over a given gradient, then weight is *almost* immaterial. But that's not how we ride, as every pedal stroke (particularly on a steep gradient) accelerates the wheel so adds to the energy 'drain' on the cyclist.

The answer to the OP's question is very dependent on their riding. Are they road racing, criterium racing, time trialling, hill climbing etc etc. 

Saving 400gm on a wheel, if at the rim, will have an enormous difference on most riding done at the higher end of a cyclists power output. In a bunch, the aero has almost no effect at all, but due to the surges and accelerations, the weight will be important. 

So, the answer is.. it depends!

Firstly, pedalling should not be a seried of impulses, but a smooth consistent rotation of the pedals.

secondly, if it were a series of accelerations of the wheel, where there are benefits to less rotational mass, then there would be a series of corresponding moments of deceleration between pedal strokes, where higher rotational mass would be benficial due to less deceleration.

Aero>>weight  except where gradient is over 5%, although in a bunch may change this

rotational mass is only relevant when accelerating, so if you are racing crits, and trying to break from the group, or not be dropped when it surges, then low rotational mass may be a benefit.

If you are time trialing or riding sol, then aero wheels every time.

 

on a standard club ride, it probably doesn't matter either way, unless you live in a really hilly area.

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Simon E | 8 years ago
1 like

Wheel weight makes negligible difference. Removing 400g from wheels would save just 17 seconds in a 4 hour ride with 1200m of ascent. http://road.cc/171932

If you're chasing aero watts then upgrading the front wheel has greater impact than the rear. But a rider's clothing and position usually have a greater influence on drag - and therefore speed - than the wheel.

I agree with Gizmo_ about the squidgy bit between your ears, it's where the biggest gains can be made.

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Nixster | 8 years ago
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Most effective for what is a good question.  If like many, for you it means faster for the same effort then the answer is aero not weight, although be prepared for the gains to be marginal. 

The greater the depth of the section the better the aero performance, broadly speaking.  Deeper sections handle less well in cross winds hence some systems e.g. Enve having shallower section fronts, although by rights the front should have more impact as it is in cleaner air. 

The compromise I came up with was carbon tubs from Far Sports, 38 front, 50 rear coming out at 1285g weight and £430 plus tyres.  I believe they are marginally faster than my RS80 C24s but I sure can't prove it.

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pants | 8 years ago
3 likes

Most effective for what? Unless you are racing the only thing that matters in my opinion is how strong a set of wheels are and how much maintance they need. For practicl needs something like fulcrum racing 5s or mavic krysium equipes are good enough for most people will ever need.

Or if you want something that you like the look of just set a budget and go for the blingest wheels you can afford!

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BBB | 8 years ago
6 likes

"In real world terms for an amateur" get ones that look cool (coming from the new owner of 55mm wheels that don't make any noticeable difference...)

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jollygoodvelo replied to BBB | 8 years ago
2 likes

BBB wrote:

"In real world terms for an amateur" get ones that look cool (coming from the new owner of 55mm wheels that don't make any noticeable difference...)

Absolutely, resoundingly this.

 

I don't actually doubt the aero claims of "10 seconds over 40km for this helmet" or "5W over 12 parsecs for these wheels".  If you're a pro, and your position is perfect, and it's a Wednesday, and all that.

 

What really makes a difference - assuming a certain level of fitness - is the squidgy bit between your ears.  Do you believe the bike is faster?  For me, clean bikes are faster than dirty ones (a clean and silent chain definitely wins over a slightly squeaky one), the 'best' bike is faster than the 'commuter', the new bib shorts you bought for that big sportive are faster than the ones you wear every day, new tyres always grip better... white bikes are faster than black, too.  (And yes, I know white paint is actually heavier than any other).

 

So buy the deep wheels.  They'll look good.  You'll feel good.  You'll be able to feel yourself sliding through the air like Tony Martin monstering the 56x11 on a downhill false flat.  Do iiiiit.

 

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AKH | 8 years ago
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Have a read of this:

 

Part 1:

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-sum-of-parts.html

 

Part 2:

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/the-sum-of-parts-ii.html

 

The math is beyond me, but this is one of the few sites I've come across that actually references a (seemingly) reputable source for their numbers. The formulas used come from a paper published in the Journal of Applied Biomechanics.

 

Short answer; rotational weight has such a small impact it's insignificant; overall weight matters a little, but it doesn’t matter whether it’s on the wheels or elsewhere; aero dominates on flat or flat-ish ground.

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