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Cyclists who never stop for red lights
Discuss...
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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55 comments
I jumped a red light today. It had just turned amber, and I could have slowed down but it would have meant I would have stopped in the middle of the cross roads with a big truck on top of me (not as fun as it sounds)
Made it through to the other side of the road, and so did the two big trucks behind me.
Lucky it was the early hours, unlucky that trucks act like they are doing the 'Grand Prix' at that time of day
Jump the light and the motorist behind hates you for not following the rules.
Wait at the light and the motorist behind hates you for being in their way.
Yesterday morning I was waiting at the lights in the green box. Shortly before the lights turned green (actually before they had even turned amber) the taxi that had been behind me pulled alongside me!
If you'd been in primary (as you should be when stopping for traffic lights assuming there isn't a cycle lane) the taxi wouldn't have been to get alongside you. If there were ASL cameras he'd get fined for encroachment.
"If there were ASL cameras he'd get fined for encroachment."
Or she.
There's nothing a cyclist can do on the road that deserves the death penalty.
But some people do seem to be in favour of the drivers exacting just that, given the slightest reason. Some even cycle themselves.
I am going to have to side with daddyELVIS on this, there is NOTHING cyclists can or can't do short of not existing that will solve some motorists problems.
It isn't road tax, red lights, it is just being in the way, being able to jump traffic jams, etc etc.
I think the issue here is following the rules. The rules are there for everyone's safety, and if everyone follows them everyone is safe. Isn't that what we want?
The problem comes when the rules don't suit us, don't appear to fit and seem redundant. I think we've all been there when there are a set of red lights and no one around. So why wait? But it's the same mentality that leads the Audi driver to gun his car 10 mph over the limit, or the escort driver texting her friend. You can talk about moral relativism all you want, because that's exactly what the escort and Audi driver's will say. And everyone is right until someone gets hurt.
I'm no angel, but I do think that what angers people is when they see a flagrant disregard for the rules. That other people disrespect the rules they follow which are for the safety of others. It isn't really about 'us' and 'them' it's about all of us. That doesn't mean to say that the road designers cannot make roads where pedestrians, cyclists and cars are not being held by red lights when no one is around.
But Crazy-legs, you're talking sense and haven't you noticed that's not allowed in this black & white holier-than-thou thread?
RLJ is not as cut and dried as some on here are making it out to be.
There's a massive difference between slipping carefully through a quiet set of lights just as they turn amber or "anticipating" a green light by 3 seconds to blasting through a 4-lane junction in heavy traffic.
There are a number of reasons why someone might jump a set of lights. One reason is undoubtedly impatience (a feeling of "I'm on a bike, I can get away with it) but then you get that with pedestrians running across a road on a red man as well and I bet no-one ever points at them and says they're "giving all pedestrians a bad name" or that they're not paying road tax or any of the other shit people come out with...
One reason is safety. There are a number of junctions on my commute where I will "anticipate" my green light or where I might not stop as they go to amber because I know that the 4 cars behind me are all going to run it too - for me to stop would result in me being mown down by drivers also RLJing.
I deal with each road situation in terms of a priority list:
1) my safety
2) the law
Where it is safer for me to RLJ (in it's more "minor" forms of anticipating, I never blast through regardless) or riding for a brief stretch on a pavement, I will do that. There's one section on my commute where I use the pavement for about 10m to avoid a very nasty pinch point/turn; otherwise I almost never pavement ride.
To be honest, I see so much illegal, irresponsible driving every single day that I've given up caring. Every commute, I reckon on probably 25% of drivers using their phones. Plenty of speeding, RLJing, lack of indicators, misted windows (especially at this time of year), not using lights, blocking ASLs and yellow box junctions...
Frankly, my minor indiscretions pale into insignificance against that and as I said, I ride for my safety first.
Well said!
As a road user you should add to your priority list " the safety of others" since you are jumping red lights and riding on pavements.
Unless the light they jump is a pedestrian crossing, of course.
RLJers: The answer is blindingly obvious - leave 'em to it; they'll invariably suffer most in a collision and evolution will see to it that those who do not learn their lesson no longer contribute to the Gene Pool...quod erat demonstrandum.
I think we need red light cannon. Take out the problem at source. It would only take a couple of deaths then everyone would start behaving very well.
As far as cycling is concerned RLJ is the most visible sign of bad roadmanship. Far from being a euphemistic 'possible annoyance' it, in actual fact, enrages most drivers. I'm not sure why you can't see this as cycling's no1 PR disaster.
Besides, just out of curiosity, is there any other part of the Highway Code that you don't agree with and have decided to ignore? Say, cycling on the right hand side of the road? Or the wrong way in a one way street? Or on the motorway? If not, why? At the end of the day you'd only be harming yourself. Or possibly annoying people.
A little anecdote : on a French cyclists' forum, someone posted a video to prove one could bike in Paris without jumping red lights and still go fast from one point to another. He keeps on claiming not to jump red lights, and that those who do so give cyclists a bad image. He posted that video specifically on that topic.
Believe it or not : 5 minutes in the video, we could see him jumping a pedestrian red light at full speed - when the bicycle lane follows the zebra to cross the street, obviously if it's red, it's red for pedestrians as well as for cyclists - the fine for the cyclist in such a case is actually the same as for a jumping a trafic light in the French law. His explanation : he saw the colours of the trafic lights, and there was no way a car could have cut his path, and still to this day he still thinks it doesn't really count as "jumping a red light".
Then, 15 minutes later, he accelerates when a trafic light ahead turns orange, and then jumps this orange light that was most probably 1 second from being red. He admits it, but he says it's a problem far less serious than jumping a red light. The fine is still the same in the law though !
So if someone who strongly claims not to jump lights keeps on actually jumping them, even when he films himself and shares the result, then, maybe it's quite a strong tendency to fight against... Isn't the solution to simply allow cyclists to jump then and let them judge if they can ? Right now, more and more in Paris, cyclists can "jump" red lights that have some special signs : you can turn on the right, or go ahead if there is no road on the right (ie : you can continue as long as it doesn't cross the cars' path). The zones where these signs are put are getting wider, wider, and the long-term plans are to put them almost everywhere except for the fast and wide streets within Paris.
Here's a law (together with an 'advisable') I break regularly:
"...It MUST also be fitted with a red rear reflector (and amber pedal reflectors, if manufactured after 1/10/85). White front reflectors and spoke reflectors will also help you to be seen...
Law RVLR regs 13, 18 & 24
...let me guess, all the do-gooders on here don't break any laws or rules, ever, including the one above??
You're right of course. Whenever I hear drivers complain about cyclists then ignoring red lights is rarely mentioned, it always the lack of spoke reflectors that enrages them the most.
Motorists who complain about cyclists do so because there are cyclists on the road in the first place (a road which, in their opinion, was made for cars). RLJing has nothing to do with. If cyclists never jumped a red light ever again, hatred towards cyclists wouldn't suddenly stop. The complaining motorist would round off his/her story about the latest annoying cyclist encounter with "...and he wasn't even wearing a helmet", or "...and there was a perfectly good cycle path at the side of the road", or maybe "...and he was riding in the middle of the lane; they think they own the f#cking road", and then there's always the good old "...and they don't pay bl##dy road tax".
BTW, I take it from your answer that there are parts of the highway code that you choose to ignore after all!
You seem to be saying that you're fine with road users ignoring the odd bit of Highway Code then. What about car drivers overtaking then turning left in front of a cyclist? Or passing with inches to spare? Or is it just cyclists ignoring bits of the Highway Code that you're fine with?
And you can't see the hypocrisy in that?
Ignoring the Highway Code is a wee bit like lying, racism or dishonesty; it's something we're all capable of but not something you should justify or glory in.
I'm specifically asking you (as you seem to have the most 'holier than thou' opinion on this subject) if you ever fail to adhere to the highway code / laws of the road. So far you've chosen not to answer directly!
Regarding your last comment, I'm not saying any of that is OK, what I am saying is (because lots of motorists drive with little regard to cyclists - your examples are typical) then cyclists need to cycle in such a way that keeps them as safe as possible. If that means breaking the highway code from time to time, then so be it!
Your comment about racism - not sure where that comes into this debate!
RLJ is just something the cagers latch onto to divert from their own shortcomings as road users.
Jumping lights is often stupid, and may annoy people.
However, making a possible annoyance somehow equivalent to dangerous driving isn't helping anything.
A safety orientation necessitates dealing with the causes of injuries, and RLJ is very far down the list.
And you're right, just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong. It's illegal to criticise the king in Thailand, or drink alcohol in Saudi Arabia. These are arbitrary decisions that have more to do with individuals opinions than any harm. We have quite a number of laws like that here too, such as the illegality of marijuana (I don't smoke... makes me feel horrible).
If you're going to discuss laws, it's very important to understand why they exist to begin with. And "because it's there" is a weak argument.
RLJs are as clueless and reckless as the worst obnoxious, antisocial drivers on the road.
Both are c**ts; one is of the two wheeled variety, the other is on 4 wheels.
I see you fail to appreciate the distinction between putting oneself at risk, and chosing to put others at risk.
No, I'm recognising that both are parts of the problem not the solution. We can't insist on driver's obeying the law but then openly flout the law ourselves (or at the very least condone it) without looking like hypocrites.
With the deaths being entirely one-sided, that moral relativity argument is flawed.
In fact, this isn't about morals at all, it's about creating an environment where road users can get to their destination in safety.
So if your law breaking doesn't harm anyone you're saying it isn't necessarily wrong? What about driving at 120mph down a deserted motorway? Or driving down the wrong way down a one way street at 4am?
And, whether you like it or not, how likely is it that we can create a safe environment with 30 million motorists (knowing what they are like) if we continue to excuse RLJs? Will we just insist that they come round to our way of thinking? Do you think that approach will work?
I don't just blast through red lights, but there is one junction (actually it's a big super-junction of three sets of lights - Parrswood in Didsbury, Manchester) where I pre-empt the green if I'm going north because the aggression of drivers there can be crazy. They want to race because they think they'll get through the other lights, but they can't, they're timed to prevent that, but if I wait I get close passes all over the shop. If I go as soon as the other direction has turned red, it works out better.
The only other time I do this is for the single-lane two-way controls that you get at roadworks - if I wait then I end up getting beeped for only travelling at 20mph through the roadworks.
[waits to be called ar*ehole]
You are a disgrace, dragging the name of all cyclists through the mud. Road-rage from drivers toward cyclists is totally, completely, all your fault!....LOL.
Mate, I respect your honesty, in the midst of all these do-gooder comments. I too jump the odd light / wait at junction well forward of the stop line. I do it for my own safety. At the end of the day I have a responsibility to come home to my wife and kids alive.
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