[Miles253]

Now this age old debate is unlikely to be ended by this thread, but I might come away enlightened.

So a few basics to begin with, I am 75 kg (usually a tad lighter) I have been looking at wheels from Soul and wheelsmith within their lightweight classes. I have sportive aspirations in the near future and racing in the slightly less near.

At 1300g for a wheelset at about £400 that represents a lot of weight saving for the money, but is it with forgetting about weight and going for a rim with more depth for the aero benefit? Baring in mind that sportives tend to be hilly, am I going to see greater benefit for a lighter quicker spinning up wheel. Is like to hear from both sides of the fence if possible

In case you want to have a look,

Home

http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/race23

Also if anyone has recommendations for other lightweight wheels or handbuilt wheels i would like to hear them, handbuilt all the way for value

Thanks

Topic

[Chris James]

3000ST1 wrote:Rotating mass

3000ST1 wrote:

Rotating mass on the bike is far more important than static mass – shaving 100-200g from wheels is equivalent to 2 or 3 times that in terms of static weight.

Rotating weight in only a maximum of twice static weight, and this is only true for a theoretical wheel where ALL of the wheel weight is located at the perimeter (rim). As more of the weight is taken up by hubs and spokes then the difference between static and dynamic ‘weight’ is reduced.

It also is only true for when a bike is accelerating, and there is no effective difference between heavy wheels or light wheels for steady state riding on the flat.

[3000ST1]

Always worth keeping in mind
Always worth keeping in mind that the rider contributes to approx. 80% of the total aerodynamic drag in road cycling and anywhere between 80-90% of the overall train weight (bike and rider)

Two most influential items wrt to aero drag are riding position and clothing. You need to find a balance with position that give you good enough drag reduction vs comfort (you can’t generate good speeds or averages if you’re hideously uncomfortable as it causes fatigue and ruins your pedalling mechanics). If your clothes are flapping in the wind then you’re losing watts all over the place, more-so the faster you go. After that look at the helmet you’re wearing (remember when Team Sky went to Kask helmets with less vents in them and started wearing skin suits for normal stages and not just time-trials).

Aero wheels only start to give a good return in saving watts around the 18-20mph mark, this is not to say there aren’t some benefits at lower speeds but they are less pronounced. Forget the average speeds over a ride and look at the time you are most likely to spend around those speeds – if it’s a small % of the time then aero rims aren’t going to give you a benefit vs the investment, and may actually hinder you on climbing/rolling terrain as they inherently carry more outboard inertia due to the deep rim sections.

If you do a mix of flat and hill riding and still want a bit of aero then start around the 40mm rim depth as a good balance, 50mm+ is aimed more at flatter terrain so weigh up the trade off (and be honest with yourself about what type of riding you really do, how fast you actually are and if you could actually benefit from better training and nutrition rather than bashing your bank balance).

Rotating mass on the bike is far more important than static mass – shaving 100-200g from wheels is equivalent to 2 or 3 times that in terms of static weight.

In terms of outright benefit and usefulness, most people would probably gain significantly more from spending £800-1000 of their money on a power meter for training/riding rather than put that wedge into a flash wheel-set (unless you have a really crap set of wheels to start with). Remember it’s no good having top notch kit if the engine isn’t tuned and can’t produce the output – I’ve had this experience first hand by having my ar$e handed to me by a 49 year old former racer riding a £1200 bike.

[700c]

Having just put the summer
Having just put the summer (deeper, lighter) wheels on this week, it gave me a good opportunity to compare..

It just feels easier to hold a given speed, so
I’d say the rim depth is probably going to make the biggest difference, if you had to choose..

Then again, just going quality (hubs, tyres) is going to improve your experience – there’s nothing like the feeling of a sorted bike humming along smooth roads with the feeling of low resistance and high efficiency – that’s probably the biggest benefit I noticed when I put the nice wheels on again

[Anonymous]

Both will have negligible
Both will have negligible advantages overall, if any, buy whatever wheels make you want to get out and ride your bike more as the resulting fitness improvement will make you faster.

[crikey]

This thread confirms my
This thread confirms my suspicions about light and/or aero wheels; people talk bollocks about both and never, ever back up all their superlatives with anything approaching evidence.

[il sole]

Quote:Firstly – what chainset

Firstly – what chainset is on that CXR – it is a cross bike so you may have a 46/36 on there – this will affect climbing and descending compared to the compact (I presume) you have on the Wilier.

both run campag compacts with 12-29 cassettes, so i know it’s not to do with that! in all honesty, the geometry is much longer on the cross bike and less hunched, so I reckon it is down to the wheels…

[Mrmiik]

One point, I’ve been amazed
One point, I’ve been amazed by how damn flexy even high end carbon tubs are – I’d pick lightweight alu any day if I was looking to climb lots.

I think a 50mm tub setup from wheelsmith isn’t going to kill you when climbing and they are very well priced.

[Mrmiik]

il sole wrote:just seen this

il sole wrote:

just seen this thread as i’m seriously contemplating getting some aero wheels…I ride 2 bikes, a 6.7Kg wilier with campag shamal ultra wheels which are nice and light and great for climbing and an 8.5Kg boardman CXR cross bike with handbuilt velocity aileron disc wheels (approx 30mm depth). I run 25mm tyres on the wilier and 32mm on the boardman. After a week of commuting on the CXR, I find the wilier very sluggish on descents and the flat. In fact there are a couple of approx 1min strava segments on the flat where i’m about 5 seconds slower on the wilier…
To me it just feels that the deeper section aero wheels hold onto speed so much easier – could this be right? I can’t see that the extra 2kg of weight would really affect things that much as combined with my (73Kg) and all extra accessories etc, it’s hardly anything.
so basically, although i’d love some bora ultras, but can’t justify spending over £2k, I was wondering if a slightly heavier aluminium aero wheel might offer something extra…Going on reviews of other Spada products how about these?

[url]http://lead-out.co.uk/index.php/spada-breva-crystal-aero38.html[/url]

plus they’re only 80g or so more than the shamals and look pretty cool to me!!

any advice – cheers!

Firstly – what chainset is on that CXR – it is a cross bike so you may have a 46/36 on there – this will affect climbing and descending compared to the compact (I presume) you have on the Wilier.

Frankly 30mm are not going to make a huge aero difference – its around 50mm mark where things get exciting.

Your position will make a big difference, it could be that the tighter ‘cross geometry is causing you to haunch up more when descending giving a better air flow over your person. One thing I can say is that my cross bike climbs and descends terribly – completely different experience I’m afraid.

[Anonymous]

as pointed out earlier, it s
as pointed out earlier, it s important to break down the weight of a wheel in hub, rim and spokes/nipples – increased rim weight (and tyre/tube) will have a bigger impact on how a wheel gets up to speed (rotational inertia). Also, don’t underestimate the contribution a top quality hub (and its bearings) in reducing drag and therefore speed.

if you live close to a wheel builder, you may well be able to demo a set on your routes.

[il sole]

just seen this thread as i’m
just seen this thread as i’m seriously contemplating getting some aero wheels…I ride 2 bikes, a 6.7Kg wilier with campag shamal ultra wheels which are nice and light and great for climbing and an 8.5Kg boardman CXR cross bike with handbuilt velocity aileron disc wheels (approx 30mm depth). I run 25mm tyres on the wilier and 32mm on the boardman. After a week of commuting on the CXR, I find the wilier very sluggish on descents and the flat. In fact there are a couple of approx 1min strava segments on the flat where i’m about 5 seconds slower on the wilier…
To me it just feels that the deeper section aero wheels hold onto speed so much easier – could this be right? I can’t see that the extra 2kg of weight would really affect things that much as combined with my (73Kg) and all extra accessories etc, it’s hardly anything.
so basically, although i’d love some bora ultras, but can’t justify spending over £2k, I was wondering if a slightly heavier aluminium aero wheel might offer something extra…Going on reviews of other Spada products how about these?

[url]http://lead-out.co.uk/index.php/spada-breva-crystal-aero38.html[/url]

plus they’re only 80g or so more than the shamals and look pretty cool to me!!

any advice – cheers!

[Miles253]

How can somebody possibly
How can somebody possibly know where the weight in a wheel is unless they have built in themselves. You’ve sold me on lightweight, now I just need to find a durable set as I can’t be dealing with buying new wheels every 5000km if I can help it.

[Simon E]

Miles253 wrote:Simon E which

Miles253 wrote:

Simon E which wheels did you get in the end? And thank you for the links I shall do some searching around.

Have ridden & raced Grammo carbon 50mm and Shimano RS80s. Weight almost identical, I am much happier with the RS80s. Less affected by sidewinds or turbulence from overtaking traffic, better braking and they don’t feel any slower. It’s the rider that’s preventing the bike from going faster, not the wheels.

If your current wheels are 1600g I doubt you’ll find something that blows them away without spending lots of money. If you’re not committed to racing I really don’t understand why you’d bother with aero wheels when the benefit is so small.

Bear in mind that some lightweight wheels are built with fragile hubs so the rims, where the inertia is, are no lighter than average.

[tonesclonmore]

+1
+1

[Miles253]

Tjuice wrote:Shep73

Tjuice wrote:

Shep73 wrote:

Obviously a light weight set of aeros won’t be any where near £400 and cheap ones will be fairly heavy compared to a decent set of hand built wheels.

Agree in general principal that aeros are heavier than non, but the above statement is not quite true.

My Planet X 50mm deep carbon wheelset was £400 and was ~1300g for the combined wheelset. I regard that as pretty light (e.g., Fulcrum Racing Zeros are >1400g).

The compromises were that this was a tubular wheelset (could be seen as a positive by some), and the wheels are not laterally as stiff as other wheelsets at that price.

I’ve looked at PX and have always been impressed. But I dont think tubular is the best option for the current riding I do. Obviously a light aero set is the ideal, does anybody have any experience with handbuilt aero wheels? Possibility for aero and light weight without a killer price tag?

[ajmarshal1]

I am no faster or slower on
I am no faster or slower on my usual routes with either my lightweight alloys or my deep section carbons on undulating terrain. The only time I’ve had a noticeable difference is climbing Great Dunn Fell on deep sections, I won’t do that again.

Aero rims are massively over egged outside the pro peloton or Cat 1/2 and above crits IMO.

[Author]

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