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TCR, Defy or Gravel Bike?

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  • August 29, 2017 at 4:46 pm #27573
    beigemaster

    Ok, I know that’s a weird subject title- but hopefully its got your attention.

    My current bike set up is a Giant Defy Disc (alu) which I call my “posh/summer/fast/sportive bike” and a flat bar Hoy City bike which I call my “winter/gravel/commuter/sh1t weather bike- which is ok for about 100km rides but anything over  that gets a bit uncomfortable due to the lack of multi hand positions that the drop bar offers.

    Mrs Beigemaster is happy for me to get a new bike on a C2W scheme (so near the £1000 budget), but on a “one in one out” policy (so one bike has to be sold off), so here are the options I’m considering of which I would value everyone’s opinion- especially those who may own some of the bikes I mention.

     

    1.Sell the city bike (hopefully could pocket £300 for it given I’ve upgraded a few bits and maintained it well), replace it with a cheapish Gravel/All road bike- something like this Norco Explore, should be great for commuting as well as long winter miles where speed isn’t such an issue.

    https://www.evanscycles.com/norco-search-a-sora-2017-adventure-road-bike-EV277745

    The upside of this is, in addition, I could ask the lovely chaps at Evans- “oh, would you mind if I used the rest of the voucher to buy a 4iiii/stages power meter as an accessory” (not sure how moral this would be but certainly an option)

     

    2.Sell the city bike and replace it with a fast, probably non disc light-weight carbon Summer/Strava segment hunter- i.e A TCR Advanced 1/2 (either Tiagra or 105, 2017 models are all going pretty cheap right now) and convert the Defy (which is currently still mint since it its on the trainer in Winter) into the winter/commuter? This would leave no money for a power meter or any other potential upgrades

     

    3.Sell the Defy (hopefully given it’s still pretty mint I could get close to the £600 mark, although it is a gamble) and put it towards a TCR- would save the most money but then would lose having a Sportive bike for longer rides.

     

    Here’s where I’d appreciate some advice

    – Is the TCR REALLY that much faster over the Defy? For context, my PR over a 50km TT bumpy course is about 20.8 miles an hour, my only 10 mile TT attempt on a similar course was a 27 minute 16 (22 mph). My question is should I just slam my stem, buy some lighter or more aero hoops and train harder with a new power meter (see option 1)? A set of Hunt’s 4 Seasons would easily save over 0.5 KG for a  not that much extra money.

    -Is the TCR REALLY that much less comfortable than the Defy? I do like to do the occasional 100 mile Sportive or long A to B across country ride, and the Defy has been brilliant- can the TCR match this? I’m 31 so not quite into the MAMIL category of rider (well, not physically) so still have a bit of flexibility.

    -Does anyone know how much the TCR Tigra and 105’s weigh? Again, I think the defy disc is around the higher end of 9kg (9.7 or there abouts probably), can you really notice a couple of KG lost on the bike? (I’ve already shed a fair amount of weight off my body before people make this suggestion). Don’t really want to go all in on a top end spend/new bike if all I do is save a kg if you don’t really notice. Is the 105 worth the extra money over the Tiagra? (I have 105 on the Defy, but never used Tiagra- but it looks great!)

    Any advice would be much appreciated- especially keen on those who have ridden/owned either TCRs or Defys. 

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  • September 5, 2017 at 6:05 am #901087
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    TypeVertigo

    Tiagra 4700 vs 105 5800?

    Tiagra 4700 vs 105 5800? Performance is identical. You’re just giving up the 11th cog and a bit of weight on Tiagra, which is huge credit to this underappreciated groupset. Shifting is leagues better from the older Tiagra 4600/105 5700 which were the same-generation contemporaries.

    Knobby 28 mm tires? I honestly don’t know of any. Panaracer Gravel Kings are the closest I can think of, but they barely count as such. If you’re keeping the Defy, you will have better luck “winterizing” it with tubeless in the same width, I think. A friend of mine has a 2016 Defy Advanced 2 and he struggles fitting anything wider than a 28 mm Continental (to be fair, their tires tend to mount +2 mm wider than stated).

    Gravel/2x cyclocross bike is much more versatile, but metal versions also tend to carry a bit of a weight penalty, much of it in the (overbuilt?) wheels. 

    September 4, 2017 at 3:36 pm #901085
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    beigemaster

    Thanks for all the responses

    Thanks for all the responses everyone. I am more and more persuaded by going all in with the TCR and converting the Defy to a winter steed, ultimately it may come down to what is in stock or on offer come October when our C2C window opens. 

     

    Call me cynical, but seeing how unstable the current political/economic situation is at the moment, to me it makes sense to buy the best bike you can on the C2W scheme before it gets shut down. 

     

    Might see how I go in any gains to FTP on the smart trainer over winter and if I can improve by summer, treat myself to a power meter then. 

    September 3, 2017 at 6:41 pm #901083
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    theironduck

    I’ve just taken delivery of a

    I’ve just taken delivery of a carbon Defy (Advanced Pro 1) and it is very nice 😉

    It’s certainly faster on the climbs than my old bike (steel framed Kona Rove). Part of it is the 5kg weight difference and part is the stiffness due to the oversized BB – you can really feel it wanting to accelerate.  I didn’t try the TCR but I’d be surprised if it was much different apart from the geometry.

    September 2, 2017 at 8:28 pm #901081
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    kearos

    I have a TCR Advanced as my
    I have a TCR Advanced as my nice bike, and it’s great. Comfortable despite being very stiff and responsive. They are quite long so check the sizing if you are of the short torso persuasion. I ride a medium though height wise I should probably ride a M/L. When I go home to visit the folks I borrow a friend’s aluminium Defy 1 and the difference is noticeable. The defy feels slower, particularly on the climbs. It’s not just the weight, it just doesn’t respond like the TCR does. Whether that translates into a speed difference I couldn’t tell you but given the choice I would ride the TCR every time although the defy is certainly a nice bike. A carbon defy might be a different beast however.

    August 31, 2017 at 7:42 pm #901079
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    700c

    Another tcr owner here. Never
    Another tcr owner here. Never ridden a defy but I came from a more ‘sportive’ geometry bike (kinesis) which is now relegated to winter duties.

    The tcr definitely encourages you to press on. It’s high stiffness and low weight encourages you to attack hills (at least until you blow! ). You may not be much faster but you might have more fun on it. Don’t find it uncomfortable, have done 100+ mile rides and I actually find it very smooth, but you can put pretty wide tyres on it if need be.

    August 31, 2017 at 9:59 am #901077
    0
    Woldsman
    beigemaster wrote:
     

    “How about option 2. and get rid of the Hoy? ‘Winterise’ your Defy – including fitting cyclocross tyres for gravel-ish rides? The  position on a TCR is not so extreme. When I’m on my winter bike I can struggle to keep up with my younger ride buddies on their Defys. When the sun is out so too is my TCR composite and the playing field is levelled.”

    Good idea in principle, shame the Defy would strugle to get anything more than 30mm, even my 28’s are tighter than I thought they’d be. Have you ridden any longer rides on the TCR out of interest, as in anything over 100km? …

    … Again, anyone ridden both TCR and Defy and can really offer an unbiased comparison with what they’re like to live with? I know a lot of cycling journalists will say one is more “Exciting” and “Lively”, but the same journalist will claim to notice the difference of 50grams difference in a wheel set, but maybe I’m getting more cynical in my old age? 

    Bung some 28/30mm Panaracer Gravel Kings on the Defy?

    The second ride I did on my TCR was over 100 miles.  The other longish ride was a 150km sportive.  The bike came with Giant’s own 23mm tyres.  I found the replacement 25mm Continental Grand Prix 4000S II made a difference to the comfort.  I have no concerns on longer rides. 

    I’ve never ridden a Defy because the front end on the bike I straddled in the shop seemed ever so high up.  (On my TCR I eventually got round to putting all but one 5mm spacer above a replacement longer stem.)

    Buy the 105 TCR Advanced if you want a lighter bike to go faster on!

    August 31, 2017 at 8:52 am #901075
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    peted76

    Regarding the Tiagra vs 105

    Regarding the Tiagra vs 105 question..  they are both good groupsets the main difference is that Tiagra is 10 speed and 105 is 11 speed. I’ve ridden with both and I’d be happy with either… a lower groupset is easily upgraded at a later date.. 

    August 31, 2017 at 8:13 am #901073
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    redspear999

    I’ve had/still got an older

    I’ve had/still got an older tcr and defy non disc aluminium. TCR was fine for longer distance (100 miles) though I found it a bit less comfy that defy – more stretched out. TCR always felt faster but in reality looking at strava segments there’s very little in it. Fitted guards to the defy and use it as my crap weather bike. Despite being heavier I still enjoy riding it. You can spend hours agonising over choices but in reality I’m not sure it makes a whole heap of difference…

    August 31, 2017 at 7:50 am #901071
    0
    theironduck

    Have you been been training

    Have you been been training with power on your Smart Trainer?  Is your FTP where you want it or could you improve it over winter with a structured training plan?  If you have reached peak Wattage I’d go for the power meter to scientifically  translate your turbo gains onto the road but otherwise I’d make sure I’d made the most of the turbo trainer first and get the PM another day – they’re only going to become better/cheaper.

    Disclaimer:  I’ve just bought a PM for my new Defy so I’m in no position to lecture 😉

    August 30, 2017 at 5:16 pm #901069
    0
    beigemaster
    2old2mould wrote:
    Divorce your wife and get whatever bike you like.

    Ah but then there’s the cost of selling the house, divorce settlement and then what would be ongoing child support, so probably couldn’t afford any new bikes after all that lot! 

    August 30, 2017 at 4:38 pm #901067
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    2old2mould

    Divorce your wife and get

    Divorce your wife and get whatever bike you like.

    August 30, 2017 at 4:37 pm #901065
    0
    alansmurphy

    I’d suggest if you are
    I’d suggest if you are committed to training G it’s not the power meter that’s doing much other than telling you a start and end number. Taking the weight analogy, you can go to the rack and pick up a 3kg weight for a few weeks then a 5kg and onwards, if you pick up a 20kg surely you know it is wrong. HR, Cadence, Speed, FTP are all good indicators, maybe not so instant as a power meter but much more cost effective.

    August 30, 2017 at 4:21 pm #901063
    0
    beigemaster
    Zebulebu wrote:
    peted76 wrote:
    I’m on my second TCR now..  If you can do 20mph on your own for 30miles (as per your TT record), then I’d suggest that slamming your stem and getting a bit more aero would be the most efficient way of going faster if that’s what you want to do.

    The stock wheels on everything up to the top level giant bikes are dogshite, you’ll get an instant hit upgrading those.

    I’d ditch the power meter idea, you’ll have far more fun with a better bike/parts upgrade than you would if you pay money to constantly felt anxious about your power output… I think the advice above to get a PM before a better bike is ludicrous. I train on HR which costs £50 for a strap, after a while you can just feel what’s going on accurately enough. Now I only use my HR monitor to ratify what I already know OR if I’m doing a roller session. I’d like a PM don’t get me wrong but it’s a ‘luxury item’.. I already know I struggle to keep up with my mates on a climb, and I monitor my HR for TT’s.

    However saying that, you can very cheaply put a set of drop bars on your hoy (£20) and you’ll instantly have your gravel/endurance bike right there.. so getting a racy TCR and owning a do it all gravel/commute is closer to covering all the bases in my humble opinion. 

    I ride my TCR wherever and over whatever most of the time (tubeless tyres), I have no issues with comfort, however I can ‘see’ where I’d be a bit more comfortable if I was a little more upright (defy style).  But that comfort would be offset by being a bit slower (less aero). 

    Compromises at every turn..  I don’t envy your decision.

    That’s presumptuous in the extreme. My experience would point to doing the exact opposite, but I wouldn’t be so arrogant to suggest someone else follows that path. If you are committed to working properly through training with power, and are diligent at following a plan, you will make far, far greater speed gains than you will by buying a new bike. This isn’t even anecodtally true – it’s 100% fact. Unless you’re doing TTs, when buying new/aero kit will affect your drag and lead to a distinct improvement in times (speed), the only thing that will really make you ‘faster’ is training. Other than ditching the stocks that come with most bikes, wheels make a pitiful amount of difference to your real speed (though they certainly ‘feel’ faster) and are not a value for money upgrade once you spend more than about 400 quid on them. Better to spend 250 on a pair of fulcrum training wheels and spend the rest on a power meter and subscription to trainer road/training peaks together with the Coggan/Allen ‘Training and Racing with a Power Meter’ book.

    Of course, this doesn’t work for everyone (not everyone has the dedication or time to learn about training with power) but all things being equal, if you do have that time and dedication, a power meter is absolutely the right choice over more bike bling. Just depends how you want to achieve your speed increase really.

     

    Annoyingly I can see both sides of this argument! I’m sort of reminded of this cracking cycling weekly video comparing the a cheap road bike compared to full aero gains on a 10m TT:

     

    The results between a cheap £200 road bike versus all of the full aero bike/kit money can buy equates to a every second saved costing £50- so logic would dictate that buying a power meter and therefore hopefully improving the bike’s engine (me) through hard work would be the best option.

     

    BUT- can you quantify the feeling and extra speed you can produce when you know you’ve bought the fastest and best bike you could afford? (Rhetorical question!)

    August 30, 2017 at 4:10 pm #901061
    0
    beigemaster
    peted76 wrote:
    Compromises at every turn..  I don’t envy your decision.

     

    Yep- I’m reminded of Bontrager’s maxim, “Strong, light, cheap. Pick 2”

    August 30, 2017 at 4:02 pm #901059
    0
    Zebulebu
    peted76 wrote:
    I’m on my second TCR now..  If you can do 20mph on your own for 30miles (as per your TT record), then I’d suggest that slamming your stem and getting a bit more aero would be the most efficient way of going faster if that’s what you want to do.

    The stock wheels on everything up to the top level giant bikes are dogshite, you’ll get an instant hit upgrading those.

    I’d ditch the power meter idea, you’ll have far more fun with a better bike/parts upgrade than you would if you pay money to constantly felt anxious about your power output… I think the advice above to get a PM before a better bike is ludicrous. I train on HR which costs £50 for a strap, after a while you can just feel what’s going on accurately enough. Now I only use my HR monitor to ratify what I already know OR if I’m doing a roller session. I’d like a PM don’t get me wrong but it’s a ‘luxury item’.. I already know I struggle to keep up with my mates on a climb, and I monitor my HR for TT’s.

    However saying that, you can very cheaply put a set of drop bars on your hoy (£20) and you’ll instantly have your gravel/endurance bike right there.. so getting a racy TCR and owning a do it all gravel/commute is closer to covering all the bases in my humble opinion. 

    I ride my TCR wherever and over whatever most of the time (tubeless tyres), I have no issues with comfort, however I can ‘see’ where I’d be a bit more comfortable if I was a little more upright (defy style).  But that comfort would be offset by being a bit slower (less aero). 

    Compromises at every turn..  I don’t envy your decision.

    That’s presumptuous in the extreme. My experience would point to doing the exact opposite, but I wouldn’t be so arrogant to suggest someone else follows that path. If you are committed to working properly through training with power, and are diligent at following a plan, you will make far, far greater speed gains than you will by buying a new bike. This isn’t even anecodtally true – it’s 100% fact. Unless you’re doing TTs, when buying new/aero kit will affect your drag and lead to a distinct improvement in times (speed), the only thing that will really make you ‘faster’ is training. Other than ditching the stocks that come with most bikes, wheels make a pitiful amount of difference to your real speed (though they certainly ‘feel’ faster) and are not a value for money upgrade once you spend more than about 400 quid on them. Better to spend 250 on a pair of fulcrum training wheels and spend the rest on a power meter and subscription to trainer road/training peaks together with the Coggan/Allen ‘Training and Racing with a Power Meter’ book.

    Of course, this doesn’t work for everyone (not everyone has the dedication or time to learn about training with power) but all things being equal, if you do have that time and dedication, a power meter is absolutely the right choice over more bike bling. Just depends how you want to achieve your speed increase really.

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