preferred-google-button
log in
register

British brands are Chinese carbon clones?

  • Creator
    Topic
  • January 20, 2013 at 9:33 pm #17725
    Leviathan

    This is a synthesis of a few threads I have seen on road.cc in the last year. I read that the New Starley bike and PlanetX are actually using standard Chinese frames and wheels that are imported and branded and obviously marked up in price. I don’t know if this is true but a poster here said it is widely know. I posted on a thread about new Zipp wheels retailing at about £1700 and said I had seen similar PlanetX wheels for £400 which I fancied; someone replied saying that you would ‘feel’ the difference between the two. Finally there was a long running thread about someone’s ‘Chinarello’ that they had built from clone parts from a website discussing the bike’s performance and cost.

    So what I am asking is this; obviously Chinese parts aren’t just made out of balsa wood and these British brands are sticking their names on them, but are they a reasonable investment? Are they 80/90% the quality of some big name US/Italian labels at half the price (which would be worth it) or do the prices genuinely reflect the difference in quality? Should I just buy what I can afford now and have a dream Italian bike in my mind for the future or wait?

  • Creator
    Topic
Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 26 total)
1 2
  • Author
    Replies
  • January 28, 2013 at 11:04 am #712357
    0
    Leviathan

    How about a Carbotanium
    How about a Carbotanium frame? I hear that Richard Hammond talking about the material last night on a popular television programme. He said it was stiffer/stronger than carbon but just as light.

    January 27, 2013 at 9:42 pm #712355
    0
    monty dog

    Raleigh wrote:The intention

    Raleigh wrote:
    The intention is for the UK to become world leaders in composite technology in the next 10 years, and there’s good money in it.

    Maclaren already make all their carbon in Woking, and I think Hope have started to make some stuff.

    This’ll be the investment in graphene technology, all £10m of investment? I guess we’ll be able to exploit that just like carbon fibre which was first made in the UK in the 1960s…

    I work in aerospace and defence and we are still world-leading in some areas, but a lot of the technology is owned by the US Government and is not available for commercial exploitation without their authority.

    January 25, 2013 at 10:13 am #712353
    0
    Chris James

    cborrman wrote:
    a final point

    cborrman wrote:

    a final point is quality control… when the factory is making a run for a big brand, they will be all over it, when they are doing their chinarello… not only will the quality control diminish, but they will be made out of hours,

    It’s tempting to believe this, but processing times are largely dependent upon thinsg like cure times etc and won’t change much between different runs. Likewise, the concept of QC is pretty out of date and companies now rely heavily on quality assurance (e.g. selection of suppliers, training and competency assessments for operators, standardisation and dopcumntation of processes, continual improvement, operator in process inspection etc). You can’t inspect quality into a product and they will have defined processes that make an acceptable frame to reduce internal reworks to a minimum, they won’t have a separate crap process that they decide to use for non OEM frames.

    Also, the Chinese companies probably get paid more for their frames they sell direct than they will for each frame bought, en masse, by the large bike manufacturers. I doubt there is much difference between the frames at all.

    However, as far as the purchaser is concerned then, as already stated above, buying from a reputable UK company gives you peace of mind.

    As a disclaimer, I don’t know anything about bike manufacturer, but I have worked in both process engineering and quality assurance roles in the aerospace industry for 20 years and I can’t imagine they are that different.

    January 24, 2013 at 7:08 pm #712351
    0
    koko56

    .
    .

    January 24, 2013 at 6:45 pm #712349
    0
    koko56

    cborrman wrote:I would chuck

    cborrman wrote:
    I would chuck the lenses and put some real ones in as you cannot get a new set of eyes or retinas from China…

    What do you base that on? :/

    January 24, 2013 at 2:12 pm #712347
    0
    Paul J

    This stuff about the
    This stuff about the Chinarello stuff being made out-of-hours, with no Q&A isn’t right.There are of course fly-by-nights, and small time traders re-selling stuff on eBay and Alibaba, with various levels of service, and guarantees from next-to-none up. They’re buying stuff inside China from who knows where. You could get a good experience, or you might not.

    However, there are also plenty of Chinese companies who’ve been selling cycle-related stuff for years, and are effectively building long-term brands. Such as Farsports, Gotobike, Yishunbike, Deng Fu, Hong Fu, Fly Xii, Great Keen and others. They have the same incentive to keep a good image as western brands do.

    You do have to make sure you get the returns policy, and who pays what costs in such cases, agreed in advance. You don’t have statutory consumer rights in China. You have no general right of return, other than what you agree with the retailer at the time of sale. So get all your T&Cs clear in advance!

    January 24, 2013 at 11:33 am #712345
    0
    Simon E

    bikecellar wrote:”Orange were

    bikecellar wrote:
    ”Orange were clear about why; Korean’s did the best job at the time, because they had massive steel expertise from ship building.” So costs had now’t to do with it? X(

    I remember Cy from Cotic saying that he first tried to get his steel frames made in UK and those he approached were dismissive of what he was doing or just not interested (as well as being more expensive). The Taiwanese firm he dealt with couldn’t do enough, they were totally set up to do exactly what he wanted.

    That’s not to say UK builders can’t or won’t make nice bikes. The resurgent interest in steel and the popularity of the UK Handmade Bike Show (http://www.bespokedbristol.co.uk/) is encouraging.

    Oakley charge what I consider to be silly prices for a pair of plastic sunglasses and trade on their association with athletes and celebs. If people want to buy them that’s fine, but it’s not a surprise that someone can turn what appears to be the same thing out for a lot less.

    You can buy expensive branded protein/energy drinks or bulk maltodextrin from MyProtein etc. Some brands take the p*ss but others, like Torq, put a great deal of time, effort and money into running race teams and events.

    January 22, 2013 at 11:41 am #712343
    0
    thereandbackagain

    bikecellar wrote:”Orange were

    bikecellar wrote:
    ”Orange were clear about why; Korean’s did the best job at the time, because they had massive steel expertise from ship building.” So costs had now’t to do with it? X(

    I’m not saying cost didn’t, but if you can get equivalent or better quality at the same or lower price, then you’re probably going to do it, aren’t you? They’re a business, not a charity.

    January 21, 2013 at 9:04 pm #712341
    0
    AWP

    Raleigh wrote:We won’t have

    Raleigh wrote:
    We won’t have to wait long until a lot more good quality carbon is made in the UK.

    The intention is for the UK to become world leaders in composite technology in the next 10 years, and there’s good money in it.

    Saw some of the best carbon wheels I’ve come across at the Bike Show on Saturday. Designed and made in Folkestone UK – ARC Carbon Wheels.

    Can we have a road test Mr Editor?

    January 21, 2013 at 8:21 pm #712339
    0
    cborrman

    nostromo wrote:£15 for a pair

    nostromo wrote:
    £15 for a pair of Choakley Jawbones delivered. Great looking sunnies, 3 different lenses, cloths and carry case. ..

    …Same mate is a salesman for an eyewear company and states matter-of-factly that brands like Oakley are paying pence for each frame unit.

    I’m a bit conflicted about this because I appreciate the value of brands and their quality control and service etc. But I break/lose/damage sunglasses for fun so I’m fed up paying hugely inflated sums for them.

    I am with you, however we must not forget that there is a big difference between:

    1) Oakley Jawbones, clearly had a LOT of expensive R&D, prototyping (getting new things done in far east is a nightmare…) and invested in them and are a step above the competition. The fact that they can get them made for pennies (pounds???) is to recoup investment. This is worth 1000s% margin

    2) someone rebranding a “chinarello” but taking on the warranty, import, exposure to changes in demand, etc. this is worth 10s% margin

    3) someone commissioning a “chinarello” with changes, again taking on the prototyping and a bit of R&D, but nothing like getting like the jawbone made. this is worth 100s% margin

    a final point is quality control… when the factory is making a run for a big brand, they will be all over it, when they are doing their chinarello… not only will the quality control diminish, but they will be made out of hours, with potentially inferior materials and may even be seconds, rejects, etc… while your chokely hawbones may look amazing, I would chuck the lenses and put some real ones in as you cannot get a new set of eyes or retinas from China…

    January 21, 2013 at 6:30 pm #712337
    0
    Tony Farrelly

    that list is interesting, but
    that list is interesting, but it’s not totally accurate – the entries on Merida and Spcialized aren’t correct, it’s more complicated than that, Merida own a slice not the whole company (I think they accepted equity for debt as a supplier when Specialized hit a rocky patch in the 90s). The one on Cycle Sport and Cycling Weekly isn’t right either – Time Warner got ride of IPC the parent company a few years back. Selle Royale own Fizik not the other way around. Giant make some Colnagos, but I’m fairly certain that isn’t under licence it’s just that they make some Colnagos for Colnago, just like they make bikes for a number of other major bike brands.

    Who makes what, where is something that changes all the time as brands look for the best deals from suppliers and who owns them, and where, doesn’t usually have any bearing on where they are made.

    January 21, 2013 at 6:06 pm #712335
    0
    simonb

    This may shed some light on
    This may shed some light on who makes what- Some interesting names that crop up..

    Who Makes What?

    January 21, 2013 at 5:21 pm #712333
    0
    bikecellar

    “Orange were clear about why;
    “Orange were clear about why; Korean’s did the best job at the time, because they had massive steel expertise from ship building.” So costs had now’t to do with it? X(

    January 21, 2013 at 5:16 pm #712331
    0
    dave atkinson

    Moda are working on a
    Moda are working on a UK-built carbon frame too…

    January 21, 2013 at 5:13 pm #712329
    0
    Raleigh

    We won’t have to wait long
    We won’t have to wait long until a lot more good quality carbon is made in the UK.

    The intention is for the UK to become world leaders in composite technology in the next 10 years, and there’s good money in it.

    Maclaren already make all their carbon in Woking, and I think Hope have started to make some stuff.

  • Author
    Replies
Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 26 total)
1 2
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.