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Cyclists worst road users says North Devon Haulage Boss

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kwi | 8 years ago
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I actually have driven into one hauliers yard to discover them burning tachograph discs, the lesser of the evils being not maintaining records.
And actually quit driving after my last transport manager told me to "Just drive easy then." after I informed him I was grossly overweight. (The load, not me, though I was beginning to getting fat.) I was in a panel van on this occasion, plated to 3.5t weighing (According to a factory weigh bridge.) 4.6t after doing my 1st drop of apx. 1/4t. A situation where if I had an accident and killed someone would probably have found me in jail.

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A V Lowe | 8 years ago
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He wasn't smiling in 2002 when that 40 years was slightly interrupted by revocation of the original O Licence (OH0146428) at a Public Inquiry (on 22 Nov 2001) and a 12 month ban on Mr Hockin running a haulage company. (s.26, s.27, s.28 & Schedule 3 GVO Act 1995). I notice that he now has a second company specifically operating tankers and licensing for around 200 vehicles. By the look of things there was (as expected) an appeal which delayed the decision until 30 Sep 2002, during which period the company could continue to operate

This is not unlike the history of A C Fry Transport, which @Kwi might also want to check-out c.2010, when, on revocation of the licence, for A C Fry, in the same week an application was made to operate Frys Logistics, from the same base, with the same principals. The small problem of A C Fry being disqualified from running a haulage company meant that it took 14 months to get the Licence for Frys Logistics, with the specific condition that AC Fry had nothing to do with running the new company.

Barely 2 years later a Frys Logistics driver working a driving shift and a second shift with the same company maintaining the trucks killed 2 cyclists and 11 weeks later hit and overturned a van, nearly killing the driver. Again clear s.26, s.27 and s.28 issues but surprisingly no Public Inquiry for the operator. Reading the A&D notices for the operators whose trucks are involved in fatal crashes can often reveal an underlying indicator of potential for trouble.

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Das | 8 years ago
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SideBurn | 8 years ago
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I have shared this story to the "Stop killing cyclists" Facebook site; feel free to contribute to the 'comments' section of this story!
But to be fair to Bill and his drivers I have cycled many thousands of miles on North Devon roads and have never had an issue with any of his drivers. But for anyone to claim that any genre of road user is any better or worse than any other is out of their tiny mind.
The thing cycles and HGV's have in common is that they are controlled by a human being with their human frailties like tiredness, distraction, risk taking and intoxication; but the difference is that we pay the price both for our own mistakes and others as well

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atgni | 8 years ago
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Lol the article linked by the first post is enlightening as to the regard we should consider the haulage bosses opinion.

"Drivers working for Barnstaple, Devon-based William C Hockin Transport falsified tachograph records, flouted hours rules and pulled fuses on their tachos, a court has heard.
When the 19 drivers admitted the offences in a series of hearings before Exeter magistrates they were ordered to pay fines and costs."

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Mungecrundle | 8 years ago
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Ever tried driving an HGV? Maybe that would give you a better perspective on how easy it is for whole car to disappear into a blind spot, let alone a cyclist.

There are cyclists with road sense and experience and plenty without. There are those who have an awareness of their vulnerability and those who clearly haven't. Those who respect the rules of the road and those who are certain that red lights don't apply if you are on a bicycle. We are pretty much the only group of road users who don't need to take any training, pass any sort of test or demonstrate any level of proficiency before heading out into traffic. We can be slow moving, take up space and we don't have indicators or brake lights, so our intentions can be hard to read sometimes. As a group we must represent the most diverse standard of ability on the road and as a group probably make more errors of judgement per mile traveled.

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ConcordeCX replied to Mungecrundle | 8 years ago
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Mungecrundle wrote:

Ever tried driving an HGV? Maybe that would give you a better perspective on how easy it is for whole car to disappear into a blind spot, let alone a cyclist.

This just tells us that lorry design is inherently unsafe, and you're blaming the victims. Why are these vehicles allowed on the road when they are so badly designed? It is not difficult to design these flaws out, and to decrease the number of lorries on the roads by switching to rail, but the greed and the fuck-you attitude of the road lobby and their hirelings in parliament prevents it, and tries to distract attention from the real problem by pointing the finger at the victims.

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kwi replied to ConcordeCX | 8 years ago
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ConcordeCX wrote:
Mungecrundle wrote:

Ever tried driving an HGV? Maybe that would give you a better perspective on how easy it is for whole car to disappear into a blind spot, let alone a cyclist.

This just tells us that lorry design is inherently unsafe, and you're blaming the victims. Why are these vehicles allowed on the road when they are so badly designed? It is not difficult to design these flaws out, and to decrease the number of lorries on the roads by switching to rail, but the greed and the fuck-you attitude of the road lobby and their hirelings in parliament prevents it, and tries to distract attention from the real problem by pointing the finger at the victims.

The designs have come from legislation and that needs to change to drastically change the appearance of HGVs. (And some changes are coming, but not until 2022 after France (Renault) and Sweden (Volvo) lobbied hard.)
Though as part of my training it was continually drummed into me that the average road user has no idea about driving HGVs, the blind spots, why they move the way they do to get around corners etc etc
The thought has just come to me that maybe HGVs would be better off with 2 person crews, one 'hazard spotter' and one operator while moving through built up areas, but that goes back to legislation again.

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ConcordeCX replied to kwi | 8 years ago
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kwi wrote:
ConcordeCX wrote:
Mungecrundle wrote:

Ever tried driving an HGV? Maybe that would give you a better perspective on how easy it is for whole car to disappear into a blind spot, let alone a cyclist.

This just tells us that lorry design is inherently unsafe, and you're blaming the victims. Why are these vehicles allowed on the road when they are so badly designed? It is not difficult to design these flaws out, and to decrease the number of lorries on the roads by switching to rail, but the greed and the fuck-you attitude of the road lobby and their hirelings in parliament prevents it, and tries to distract attention from the real problem by pointing the finger at the victims.

The designs have come from legislation and that needs to change to drastically change the appearance of HGVs. (And some changes are coming, but not until 2022 after France (Renault) and Sweden (Volvo) lobbied hard.)
Though as part of my training it was continually drummed into me that the average road user has no idea about driving HGVs, the blind spots, why they move the way they do to get around corners etc etc
The thought has just come to me that maybe HGVs would be better off with 2 person crews, one 'hazard spotter' and one operator while moving through built up areas, but that goes back to legislation again.

As I pointed out in my first reply "the greed and the fuck-you attitude of the road lobby and their hirelings in parliament prevents it, and tries to distract attention from the real problem by pointing the finger at the victims."

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Mungecrundle replied to ConcordeCX | 8 years ago
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Do you not think that HGV vehicles are inherently better designed than they were 20 years ago? Do you think that automotive developers are not making efforts to equip their next generation of vehicles with even better modern technologies; camera and collision avoidance detection systems for example. It takes time to roll those developments out to the general fleet, not only due to the lifecycle of vehicles but because cutting edge, experimental technologies do not get released on a vehicle until they are tested, tested and tested some more.

For example, my car has blind spots but it also has proximity 'parking sensors' which mitigate some of that risk. My next car is likely to have reversing cameras and side impact collision warning systems, not because I particularly want those things but because they are becoming standard equipment (note - my next car is a few years off), my bicycle effectively has a great big blind spot given that I'm not turning to look behind every 10 seconds.

I have no intention of 'blaming the victim'. Is that really how you see yourself? As you point out yourself lorry design is inherently unsafe, but show me the everyday vehicle that exists on our roads that is incapable of maiming or killing. They are all inherently unsafe, it's a facile argument. What you can do is take the time to appreciate the issues facing operators of different vehicles in just the same way as we would wish for every HGV, car, bus and van driver to spend a day in the saddle to see things from our perspective. This may not save you from the actions / incompetence / stupidity of someone else, but could lessen your own chances of making yourself a victim through good old fashioned ignorance.

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ConcordeCX replied to Mungecrundle | 8 years ago
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I'm not a victim, and I'm well aware of the view from the cab of a lorry, among many other vehicles. I was a passenger in a lorry when the driver lost control, destroyed a caravan that was on the other side of the road, nearly killing the family, then tried to hide his lorry from the police. Lorries are getting safer, slowly, but every single time a new safety measure is proposed the road lobby and the people who run lorry firms fight against them on the grounds of costs.

As for your fatuous claim about a bicycle's 'blind spot', it is not bicycles that killed 1,713 people on the roads in 2013
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-road-fatalities

nor is it bicycles that are routinely crushing people to death on the streets of London
http://road.cc/content/news/147888-cyclist-killed-collision-tipper-truck...

If it were I think it's safe to say that we would not be allowed to use them on the roads.

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giff77 replied to Mungecrundle | 8 years ago
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Fixed it for you.

Mungecrundle wrote:

Ever tried driving an HGV? Maybe that would give you a better perspective on how easy it is for whole car to disappear into a blind spot, let alone a cyclist.

There are motorists with road sense and experience and plenty without. There are those who have an awareness of their vulnerability and those who clearly haven't. Those who respect the rules of the road and those who are certain that red lights don't apply if they are in a vehicle. They are pretty much the only group of road users who despite training, pass a test to demonstrate some level of proficiency before heading out into traffic. They can be slow moving, take up space and rarely indicate their intentions and brake late. As a group they must represent the most diverse standard of ability on the road and as a group probably make more errors of judgement per mile traveled.

Two incidents that happened to me recently. First one I was passing a series of parked vehicles ensuring I was well out of the door zone and an action which would have taken 10seconds at the most. Behind me an HGV about 2 feet off my back wheel. Now for me to pull into the door zone would mean his passing me giving at most a foot clearance. I had two options. Continue with the risk of something happening that would put me under his wheels or get off the road. Due to no oncoming traffic I choose the latter and pulled into the other lane to allow an undertake.

Second was while out walking and half way over a Zebra Crossing when a Chelsea Tractor came sailing through right across my bows. With no concern whatsoever for my safety.

Motorists continue to this day to operate on our roads with a warped sense of entitlement and right, and totally disregard the well being of the vulnerable road user regardless of being licensed to operate with courtesy, consideration and care.

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marcswales replied to Mungecrundle | 8 years ago
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"

Ever tried driving an HGV? Maybe that would give you a better perspective on how easy it is for whole car to disappear into a blind spot, let alone a cyclist. "

Using a dangerous machine, with "blind spots" hidden from the operator , where members of the public could get killed? If it was in a factory you would be barred from starting it until it was safe. On the road, you can blame the victim.

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AJ101 | 8 years ago
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Interesting that he doesn't think that the vast majority of road users that exceed the 30mph speed limit in towns are the worst road users.

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Daveyraveygravey | 8 years ago
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The fat sanctimonious bastard should try riding a bike - he could do with shifting some pounds - on our roads and then he might realise that not ALL hgv drivers are that great.

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ianrobo | 8 years ago
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Look the words may not be right

"They need educating," he said. "If a 44-tonne lorry is indicating left and a cyclist decides to skip past on the truck's inside, the cyclist is going to be dead.

they need educating sounds sister but his point surely on what cyclists do (and we all have done it) is right. If we see a truck or a bus indicating left they surely common sense says we do not undertake.

Now if they are not indicating and turn left that is a different matter.

The problem is a simple one of a lack of separation and space of course.

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kwi | 8 years ago
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Das replied to kwi | 8 years ago
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kwi wrote:

Must have new found respect for the law. http://commercial-motor.archive.netcopy.co.uk/article/5th-april-2001/14/...

LoL, what is it they say about people in glass houses?  24

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