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OPINION

Love for the LBS

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Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name

“Norm!”… anyone of an age, or propensity to watch repeats of American comedies on any number of satellite television channels, will be familiar with the cheer that would emanate from from the bar as Norm arrived.  Ok, so I don’t get that raucous reception every time I go into my local bike shop, but it’s nice to be known by name, or be a “kent face” as they say in Scotland.  The benefits of having a good local bike shop are not dissimilar to the advantages of belonging to a club.

Asking what I’m there to buy isn’t necessarily the first thing that comes my way, the people working there know there’s more to my life than cycling (I wish they’d tell my wife, as she might be of a differing opinion) and they take an interest in what’s going on outside the world of two wheels and a set of cranks.  That’s not to say service is lax - they are, of course, in the business of selling; customer retention is also at the forefront of the business model.

Kaino, not your average customer!

Not your average customer!

Goals?  What goals?  Ah, the focus of this year’s cycling, I'm with you now.  How much training am I doing, what sort of training, am I enjoying it?  A bit of advice, a few questions, knowledge of what other people have been up to - all get shared in the shop; a bike community congregates on those floorboards.

Advice is something that I value, though I’ve found that it’s not always given just to make a sale.  A good example would be an in-shop discussion held last year on the benefits of Q-rings; the advice I got was clear and impartial - I wasn’t being sold on it because someone liked or disliked them, or because the manufacturer says this/that/the other.  It was better information than any page I’d researched on the internet, even though there wasn’t a clear steer in either direction.  I made my own mind up on what to buy and that was the best outcome.

Your local bike shop is more than just a place to get your spare tubes or a new free-hub.  There’s more on offer than new saddles, bars, bikes and gloves.  Good information and advice in given, friendly faces and people who give you some of their time - even if it’s to nip in and have a chin wag about how bad the weather has been - you get a relationship.  It’s what’s missing from the convenience of on-line shopping, even though you’ll find yourself purchasing online due to lack of time to get to the shop, or want of a specific product.  You’ve got ownership in the bike shop - you put in to the community and you’ll get more out of it than you would ever imagine.

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josh5034 | 9 years ago
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Anything that gets people on bikes sounds like a good thing. I walked into Halford's with my cycle-to-work scheme voucher (the only place I could spend it) and walked out with a £300 commuter for my daily 5 mile roundtrip. It was to replace a 25 year old MB that I used for the same journey, which I hated every second of, and which fell apart. I did not expect at that time that it would completely take over my life. I loved it and cut my commute in half I think just because of the slightly better position and slicker tyres plus shiny-new-thing effect. Over the next few months I shopped around for bits and pieces as I ventured out in the Surrey Hills at the weekends but found that I was buying the same things twice. My first helmet for example was ridiculous but it was my new-found LBS that set me straight. I spent an hour in there choosing the thing. Ditto with jersey (too loose), gloves (too tight), lights (too dim) and maintenance stand (cheap and nasty). All of these mistakes I now know I would have avoided if I'd known about my LBS. When I fell off and broke a clip on my shoes they took one right off a display model and got me straight back on the road. Six months later I was on first name terms with my LBS and ready to spend some money on a road bike. I spent 3 hours in there trying every bike and getting a basic fit. I ended up with a different brand that I went in for and a smaller frame size than internet guides would suggest. I couldn't be happier so I think it's all good, from Halfords to my wonderful LBS - East Street Cycles and Hoops Velo in Farnham. Well, ok, two LBS's, both owned by Gary Bird and situated a few hundred metres apart. It can't be bad if you have to open a second shop down the road from the first to cope with demand for your services!

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JimPettipher | 9 years ago
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Hi All,
I've set up a co-op for indie bike shops, with a plan to hook up with a 300+ bike shops' co-op in the US (and other plans too) to try and address some of these terms of trade problems identified by indie bike shops. (You can read more about it here http://s.coop/elooop)
I'm just a coop geek (do a lot of work with farmers coops etc, where the model works really well for them) who also happens to be a bit of a bike geek and likes indie bike shops and wants to help them out.
If you're interested, you can follow the story (21 bike shop business members as far afield as Aberdeen & Exeter already) by following the coop's Twitter feed @VeloShopsCoop
Thanks for being there (bike shops & Road.cc) and thanks for reading if you have  1
Jim

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DanTe | 9 years ago
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What about when something goes wrong?
I paid £470 for a set of wheels from a well known online presence. I saved roughly £50 by doing so. I have since had 2 separate incidences of cracked rims and now a dodgy hub. They've been very good in dealing with it but it's cost me approx £45 in postage.
It's taken a week or more each time to sort out each time.
Of course they've not been able to nip out back and get a spare set to borrow till it's sorted.
I've also had to bugger about packing em up and carting to the post office.
All interaction via phone calls and emails.
Has it been worth the £50 initial saving? Of course not.
Would I consider buying another set of wheels online. No.
I want a set of Zipp 303's. I can get them £300 cheaper online but I'm not going to.
Small stuff that can't break I tend to buy online. It's easier and slightly cheaper.
But I've found a shop In London that I have total trust in - Swift Cycles, as it goes. I'll buy my frames and wheels from there in the future.
Good bunch of guys, their workshop is very good and I know they'll do what they can to sort a problem out. That's enough for me...

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EnglishmanAbroad | 9 years ago
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I'd love to support my local bike shop but other than servicing and consumables like tires and tubes it's just too expensive. I can get clothing and parts delivered to Germany and it's considerably cheaper. The bloke that owns the shop is very knowledgeable and does a fantastic job on my bikes. But bikes and parts are just too expensive in Germany to buy in a LBS.

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AJ101 | 9 years ago
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I'm involved in Ecommerce and honestly, independent bikes shops should have a good coffee machine, a big kettle of tea and a big supply of biscuits. And a big screen showing classic bike DVDs.

Not everyone wants to shop online, not everyone is 100% price driven. Most are, but if the average punter knew he could go in a nice shop, look at amazing bikes and have a free or cheap cuppa if he'd soon become a regular customer.

Make bike shops a destination or experience and you can compete against online.

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Coneyhallcycleworks | 9 years ago
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I own an LBS in Bromley, and owned one for 6years in NZ. With both I open(ed) the doors each morning knowing that I will be sharing my love and knowledge of cycling with all manner of people, and possibly make Feck-all. The internet may have changed what I sell (zero clothing and next to no food) but every single one of the cyclists lucky to become 'a friend of the shop' are still what makes a great shop - and needs a great shop.
To paraphrase: 'No cyclist can shop in a vacuum.'

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hampstead_bandit | 9 years ago
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@glynr36

I apologise if my comment came across as snobbery. My experience at Evans was customers bringing in completely worn out, heavily corroded, crash damaged, broken bikes and expecting the mechanics in our workshops to wave a magic wand and make the bike as new but at 1/2 price.

I cannot speak for Evans management, but many mechanics suspected these campaigns were run to convert un salvageable bikes into new bike sales?

As a bike mechanic my primary task is to return a safe, working bike to a customer within a reasonable timeframe, at a price acceptable to them. If they do not want the work done but want a 'half job' done then I would not do the repair, and I would not expect any competent mechanic to do this either.

I will not repair a bike with a broken frame, ripped tire, split rim, bent handlebar - unless the damaged part is being replaced.

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barbarus | 9 years ago
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I'll put in a word for Hardy Cycles in Exeter. He's a mechanic but also sells some accessories and components. A really nice guy and very knowledgeable.

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don simon fbpe | 9 years ago
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Quote:

Until they realise that the world DOESN'T owe them a living then they're going to end up just like the green grocer, fishmonger, baker etc.

'Cos Tesco turned out proper good, dinnit?

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Bishop replied to don simon fbpe | 9 years ago
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don simon wrote:

'Cos Tesco turned out proper good, dinnit?

In fact yes it did.

O.K lets look at a world without large chains. What would happen to the price of a helmet if Specialised had to deal with say 20,000 individual LBS's rather than sending a consignment of 2,500 to a large chain? i.e 1 invoice, 1 credit check etc? What would happen to a manufacturer with a great product are they meant to go see and deal with 20,000 Mom & Pops?

The logistics, delivery networks and scale of these chains is a benefit to everyone thats not to say there aren't draw-backs but on the whole the chains have brought us significant benefits.

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don simon fbpe replied to Bishop | 9 years ago
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Bishop wrote:
don simon wrote:

'Cos Tesco turned out proper good, dinnit?

In fact yes it did.

O.K lets look at a world without large chains. What would happen to the price of a helmet if Specialised had to deal with say 20,000 individual LBS's rather than sending a consignment of 2,500 to a large chain? i.e 1 invoice, 1 credit check etc? What would happen to a manufacturer with a great product are they meant to go see and deal with 20,000 Mom & Pops?

The logistics, delivery networks and scale of these chains is a benefit to everyone thats not to say there aren't draw-backs but on the whole the chains have brought us significant benefits.

Let's not forget being able to source cheap labour, crippling manufacuters with extended payment tems and using kids when they can get away with it.
The manufacturer with the great product will have the opportunity to make some money out of that great product.
Specialized like Tesco don't give a shit about anyone except themselves and their own profit. Tesco with the dairy farmer and Specialized with Cafe Roubaix. I think it's great that our Specialized pound doesn't filter back into local economies to benefit many.
I agree that the lazy, bleating shop owner who doesn't get off their arse to compete and offer something competitive doesn't deserve my money, but the hard working quality shop that is squeezed out by the big boys is a completely different question.
Watching customers go into a shop to seek advice and pick the brains of our LBS army then buy online is shocking. You don't get that level of personal service online.
Remember the demise of the local shop? Good to see the all new Tesco/Sainsbury corner shops we have now, isn't it?
But hey, to pays your money, etc...

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hampstead_bandit | 9 years ago
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@bishop

When brands leak or actively sell OE stock from their factories into the aftermarket, why would any LBS bother stocking that brand?

Why would we hold stock that we can buy cheaper (as a 'customer') from on-line retailers than we can buy at trade prices from official UK distributors?

There is a cost attached to stocking brands, and if lbs lose money by selling those brands, expect the lbs to disappear from the high street, along with the distributors.

Selling a bike brand like Trek or Specialised who do not want their bikes sold on-line or shipped unbuilt in boxes makes sense to a lbs.

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Bishop replied to hampstead_bandit | 9 years ago
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hampstead_bandit wrote:

@bishop

Why would we hold stock that we can buy cheaper (as a 'customer') from on-line retailers than we can buy at trade prices from official UK distributors?

Trust in free market capitalism!

You and all other LBS's find that your losing money on selling product X as its far cheaper online. So you all stop stocking it. The product loses massive amounts of inshore visibility and shop recommendations. Sales for the product fall as other products are pushed at its expense. Brand sees falling overall sales and so takes action to ensure its worth shops while to stock and sells its products.

Its always going to be cheaper to sell online from a warehouse on the outskirts of town rather than at a premium location on the high street but there are many people that value a shop that offers a 'full service' experience.

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Bishop replied to hampstead_bandit | 9 years ago
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hampstead_bandit wrote:

@bishop

Why would we hold stock that we can buy cheaper (as a 'customer') from on-line retailers than we can buy at trade prices from official UK distributors?

Trust in free market capitalism!

You and all other LBS's find that your losing money on selling product X as its far cheaper online. So you all stop stocking it. The product loses massive amounts of inshore visibility and shop recommendations. Sales for the product fall as other products are pushed at its expense. Brand sees falling overall sales and so takes action to ensure its worth shops while to stock and sells its products.

Its always going to be cheaper to sell online from a warehouse on the outskirts of town rather than at a premium location on the high street but there are many people that value a shop that offers a 'full service' experience.

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hampstead_bandit | 9 years ago
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@bishop

Our shop (lbs) in the docklands has been doing 50% off servicing all January, plus 10% off everything in stock.

Servicing has been popular when a customer can get a 'premium' service worth £120 for £60.

Thankfully we've had reasonable quality bikes coming in; when I worked for Evans and we did 1/2 price servicing campaigns we'd just get all the cr*p people dragged out of their sheds or found in the Thames!

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glynr36 replied to hampstead_bandit | 9 years ago
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hampstead_bandit wrote:

Thankfully we've had reasonable quality bikes coming in; when I worked for Evans and we did 1/2 price servicing campaigns we'd just get all the cr*p people dragged out of their sheds or found in the Thames!

It's the snobbery like that which puts me (and many others)off most physical shops and especially independents.

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SamShaw | 9 years ago
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With you there regards Wheelcraft, last time I went in there I had to invent the imaginary double puncture to tell my wife why I was back about 2 hours later than I'd told her!

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Flying Scot | 9 years ago
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Wheelcraft, Clachan of Campsie, can find (well you find, they even send you up in loft yourself) almost any part dating back to the 1950's.

Excellent wheel builds, free coffee and an amazing place, it piled from floor to ceiling in parts and wheels.

http://www.wheelcraft.net

And it's never that tidy!

Builds wheels for world champions and even me.

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andyp | 9 years ago
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'Sadly I am now unable to ride so I have no need for a LBS, but after several changes of address into ever larger and larger "superstore" premises, some of my club-mates inform me that Harry Halls does not seem to have the personal touch it once had, which is a great pity.'

Precisely that. Has never been the same in many ways, and helpfulness/customer care plummeted at the time of the move to Oldham Street and thence to Whitworth St.

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Simon E | 9 years ago
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My LBS was set up by someone who lives and breathes cycling - club committee member, coach, race series & event organiser and an enthusiastic 'yes we can' kind of chap. I shop there when I can and always recommend them - at least 4 people I know have bought new bikes etc as a result. They will fit in small jobs without notice and charge what I consider a particularly modest hourly rate.

While washing my my daily commuter bike last Saturday I found that a 6 month old BBB jockey wheel on had seized (grrr!). I rang the shop, yes they had a Shimano set in stock. With club 10% discount it cost the same as the crap ones I had bought online. Lesson learnt.

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hampstead_bandit | 9 years ago
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There have been many discussions and debates over the future of the LBS both here in the UK and globally, as the growth of the internet has disrupted conventional supply chains by removing middlemen to some degree.

Many shops have experienced the difficulties associated with price matching, show rooming, price gouging especially when selling 'branded' goods specifically group set components, tires, clothing and finishing kit.

Yesterday a customer wanted a popular saddle from our shop. Retail price was £79.99, we are doing a January price promotion with 20% discount for existing customers. He found this saddle on-line, for £10 less than our cost price. We declined the sale, he bought it on-line.

the future of the LBS?

-Selling quality bike brands, and quality component / clothing brands, that will not allow dealers to sell on-line or ship mail order (discounting quality brands becomes a race to the bottom, with smaller retailers bleeding to death over time).

-Bike fitting with experienced bike fitters using recognized systems like Retul, BG Fit, Guru, etc. (internet cannot fit you to a bike).

-Workshop services from experienced, Cytech or C&G certified mechanics (internet cannot fix your bike). Small stock holdings of common service parts and use of next day delivery from suppliers.

If the LBS can adapt to a service-based model partnered with quality brands that control their supply, it can find a bright future.

For the customer wanting the saddle, we'd have been happy to add some value to the transaction even with the 20% discount, by enabling a 30-day trial and swap out at no cost, and even offered a quick setup with the bike fitter to establish a base fit. Shopping on price rather than value, does not build relationships, and for something critical like a saddle it can be the difference between enjoyment of riding and constant pain.

Some LBS have adapted successfully, some are going through the pain, some are completely clueless and still trading in the past.

A good LBS is gold, and building a relationship with a good LBS can make for a happy cyclist!

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Bishop replied to hampstead_bandit | 9 years ago
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Having been to many LBS's in the last 2 years I wanted to put the counter argument from a consumers POV.

After a 5 year gap I decided to return to cycling I had approximately £2500 to spend on a new bike. I was 100% determined to support an LBS but after encounters with numerous LBS's it became obvious that the attitude was that they were doing me a favour selling me a bike. Not 1 would get a bike in for me to see let alone test ride other than by me paying a 100% non-refundable deposit. A number had the cheek to tell me to go to Evans to test the bike then come back to buy it from them. I ended up buying the bike from a well known chain.

I've bought a number of quality accessories again from chains because LBS's only want to sell you what they have in stock. Example was the Exposure Blaze was rubbish and only for ponsy people trying to show off how much money they had. I then had a £20 something or other shoved under my nose and 100 reasons why it was much better than the Blaze. I wanted to ask some questions about the Garmin Edge1000 and got a don't know 'check Garmin's website' Yes you can buy 1 at FULL price paid in advance and you'll get it in about 7 to 10 days. You then get the obligitory whining and whinging about how they can't offer even a couple of quid off it as they don't make any profit on them as it is. As it was they made nothing as I got it from a chain who couldn't answer any questions either but had it in stock and at 20% discount. Wander around most chain bike shops at the moment and you'll see them offering discounts on servicing not so any LBS I've seen recently. The whole problem with LBS's is that they seem to be living in a world Circ. 1950 where there was no choice it was take it or leave it. Until they realise that the world DOESN'T owe them a living then they're going to end up just like the green grocer, fishmonger, baker etc.

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Bishop replied to hampstead_bandit | 9 years ago
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hampstead_bandit wrote:

-Selling quality bike brands, and quality component / clothing brands, that will not allow dealers to sell on-line or ship mail order (discounting quality brands becomes a race to the bottom, with smaller retailers bleeding to death over time).

Forgot to add that's complete total and utter anti-competitive, anti-consumer bullsh*t!

Why not just pass a law requiring people to shop at there LBS and make any discounting of RRP illegal?

Cyclist are not here to prop up LBS's

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brooksby | 9 years ago
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Jakes Bikes, in central Bristol. More for your commuter/'practical cyclist' than your roadies, but a great little shop, with great staff.

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SilkRoadPadd | 9 years ago
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Wheels Cycles in Gillingham Dorset. Great knowledgeable bunch. Awesome service and a great Craic to ride with.What more do you need? A cafe? ?Well that's next door!

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dafyddp | 9 years ago
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Encouragingly for a city of it's size, Leicester has at least seven independents. I'd say each caters to a subtlety different market which is probably why they are able to co-exist:
Julies Cycles
Websters
Fix My Bike
Future Cycles
Bob Warner
City Cycles
Billy's Bespoke Bikes

There's also two branches of Halfords, so it's not as if there's no competition from the chains.

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Davidn37 replied to dafyddp | 9 years ago
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And there is also South Wigston Cycle Centre.

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andyp | 9 years ago
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Used to absolutely love Harry Halls in its old downstairs location in the Corn Exchange. It was like going into a magic cave full of wonder. 20 mins every night whilst waiting for my train. Beautiful. Never found anywhere to match that  2

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K Stand Ken replied to andyp | 9 years ago
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andyp wrote:

Used to absolutely love Harry Halls in its old downstairs location in the Corn Exchange. It was like going into a magic cave full of wonder. 20 mins every night whilst waiting for my train. Beautiful. Never found anywhere to match that  2

Yes, and even before that in the 1960s when as a teenager I first started to use Harry Hall's when the shop was very much smaller and round the corner in Cathedral Street. Even though he was a well respected international mechanic HH would be there to give good advice to 'rabbits' like me, sometimes even at the cost of not making a sale. But it was generally a positive shopping experience and I bought clothing and equipment there at a greater cost than my wife would have been comfortable with - had she but known!
Sadly I am now unable to ride so I have no need for a LBS, but after several changes of address into ever larger and larger "superstore" premises, some of my club-mates inform me that Harry Halls does not seem to have the personal touch it once had, which is a great pity.
In contrast, as I worked quite close by, emergency occasionally forced me to use the questionable "services" of Cowans Cycles in East Manchester. This understandably now defunct business was run by two lugubrious brothers who made absolutely no attempt to persuade you into returning, in fact it seemed that all they wanted was to take your money and get shot of you. Somebody famous once said "Don't become a shopkeeper unless you can smile" but it seemed this pair rarely exercised those particular facial muscles.
I didn't know it at the time but my father-in-law who lived close by and had been cycling since before the 2nd World War also had a very low opinion of them - he refused to lend his teenage son the money for a new bike as the boy had set his mind on one from Cowans.
Surprisingly, Cowans was the bike shop of choice for the Manchester Velo club who were welcomed into the back room to sit by the fire for a chat and a cuppa.
I don't think it was my particular demeanour which caused their attitude to me as I was warmly welcomed by several other bike shops during that period. And again, spent sometimes large amounts of money.

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don simon fbpe | 9 years ago
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While I used to have an excellent LBS in Spain, we'd chat about all sorts, he'd let me play in the workshop and go on rides together and I got decent discount. I have gone the complete opposite way in the UK.
I love having a few excellent bike shops that I enjoy visiting without feeling guilty for buying elsewhere.
I like The Edge Chester.
Stans
Jack Parker in Burscough, but spent too much time talking and way too much money.

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