Driver who killed cyclist suffered from “automatism” claims defence

Christopher TR1 wrote:

Sometimes you see doddery old crumblies behind the wheel and I doubt if they would even be able to cycle a kilometer. Perhaps that should be part of the driving test? If you're not fit enough to cycle a kilometer then you're not fit to be behind the wheel.

Would have been a bit unfair to my Nan if that was the criteria.

She had a very dodgy left hip and couldn't walk very far, but was fine driving her automatic Fiesta.

Nearly had to put my foot down with my father-in-law about driving, due to his health, but fortunately he hung up his keys after a nasty fall and left the driving to my mother-in-law.

Christopher TR1 wrote:

Disgusting. Not even a prison sentence for taking a life!

And would putting him in prison make any difference?

No. In fact it may well make things worse.

Far better to put resources into longer driving bans, stricter tests and proper rehabilitation (i.e. he/she has to understand and acknowledge the unrepairable, life-long harm they caused, including meeting with victims' families).

"Doddery old crumblies" may be a risk to other road users but look at the statistics, they do not cause the majority of serious collisions.

Also, time after time it is aggressive driving - close passing, overtaking, aggression and so on - that deters many people from cycling, not old or infirm people behind the wheel.

Or are you only interested in revenge rather than justice?

Simon E wrote:

Christopher TR1 wrote:

Disgusting. Not even a prison sentence for taking a life!

And would putting him in prison make any difference?

No. In fact it may well make things worse.

Far better to put resources into longer driving bans, stricter tests and proper rehabilitation (i.e. he/she has to understand and acknowledge the unrepairable, life-long harm they caused, including meeting with victims' families).

"Doddery old crumblies" may be a risk to other road users but look at the statistics, they do not cause the majority of serious collisions.

Also, time after time it is aggressive driving - close passing, overtaking, aggression and so on - that deters many people from cycling, not old or infirm people behind the wheel.

Or are you only interested in revenge rather than justice?

Well, putting him in prison would at least help counter the suspicion that cops and ex-cops along with driving-offenders get treated with special leniency that others don't get.  That seems like it would make a difference.  It would send a message to others, and perhaps make people think twice before driving when they aren't up to the task.

Driving bans would certainly be a better option to imprisonment if only there were some way to enforce them.  That's the big problem there, there's almost no enforcement.  Even when people commit further offenses while driving while banned, I notice the driving-while-banned part rarely adds anything of significance to their punishments.  And if they just drive while banned and don't run anyone over while doing so, they seem to mostly get away with it entirely.  Or just get another ban, which they will ignore as they did the previous one.

My dad gave up driving when he developed Parkinsons.  And he bloody _loved_ driving.  Drove a delivery van for a living, in part becuse they let him use the van on his time off.  I even wonder whether his lifelong love of sitting behind the wheel for hours and hours and hours contributed to the long list of unpleasant illnesses he developed, of which Parkinsons was just one.

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Well, putting him in prison would at least help counter the suspicion that cops and ex-cops along with driving-offenders get treated with special leniency that others don't get.  That seems like it would make a difference.  It would send a message to others, and perhaps make people think twice before driving when they aren't up to the task.

Like the death sentence in USA? That doesn't work either. If prison acted as a deterrent then our prisons would all be empty.

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Driving bans would certainly be a better option to imprisonment if only there were some way to enforce them.  That's the big problem there, there's almost no enforcement.

If more money was found for roads policing enforcement would always be better than putting people in prison. And even with the limited resources available, some forces can be more proactive if the will is there. Only yesterday the West Midlands team tweeted about someone they stopped who couldn't read a plate at 4.5 metres!

It seems some people are unaware of (or want to ignore) the many negative effects of a prison sentence, even a short one, in the pursuit of punishment. Doing time won't make the inmate a better driver, he/she may even be exposed to violence, drugs and other negative influences. If he's an ex-copper there is a good chance he'll be on the receiving end of some serious brutality.

When I was young I enjoyed driving but now I see it as a particularly selfish activity. What is needed a cultural shift away from the selfish idea that we can do what we like behind the wheel,that we have some kind of 'right' to the open road (as the car adverts love to sell it). Once road crime is treated like other crimes then perhaps we'll start to get somewhere. Some progress was made with drink-driving but we're a long way from making the kind of inconsiderate and dangerous driving that we see on here and in our everyday lives as harmful as it is.

Simon E wrote:

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Well, putting him in prison would at least help counter the suspicion that cops and ex-cops along with driving-offenders get treated with special leniency that others don't get.  That seems like it would make a difference.  It would send a message to others, and perhaps make people think twice before driving when they aren't up to the task.

Like the death sentence in USA? That doesn't work either. If prison acted as a deterrent then our prisons would all be empty.

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Driving bans would certainly be a better option to imprisonment if only there were some way to enforce them.  That's the big problem there, there's almost no enforcement.

If more money was found for roads policing enforcement would always be better than putting people in prison. And even with the limited resources available, some forces can be more proactive if the will is there. Only yesterday the West Midlands team tweeted about someone they stopped who couldn't read a plate at 4.5 metres!

It seems some people are unaware of (or want to ignore) the many negative effects of a prison sentence, even a short one, in the pursuit of punishment. Doing time won't make the inmate a better driver, he/she may even be exposed to violence, drugs and other negative influences. If he's an ex-copper there is a good chance he'll be on the receiving end of some serious brutality.

When I was young I enjoyed driving but now I see it as a particularly selfish activity. What is needed a cultural shift away from the selfish idea that we can do what we like behind the wheel,that we have some kind of 'right' to the open road (as the car adverts love to sell it). Once road crime is treated like other crimes then perhaps we'll start to get somewhere. Some progress was made with drink-driving but we're a long way from making the kind of inconsiderate and dangerous driving that we see on here and in our everyday lives as harmful as it is.

Well (and I'm sure we've had this same exchange before!) I don't disagree that prison can have bad effects and isn't the best solution overall.

(The death penalty is a different argument, incidentally).

But I will continue to feel offended at how we send people to prison for, say, stealing a bottle of water during a riot, or trying to diddle an insurance company over an alleged canoe 'accident', and yet baulk at doing so for arrogant drivers who kill cyclists and pedestrians.  That differential in itself sends a message that some people's lives just don't count.  I find that insulting.

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

I will continue to feel offended at how we send people to prison for, say, stealing a bottle of water during a riot, or trying to diddle an insurance company over an alleged canoe 'accident', and yet baulk at doing so for arrogant drivers who kill cyclists and pedestrians.  That differential in itself sends a message that some people's lives just don't count.  I find that insulting.

I agree on this.

In my view prison should mainly be used for people who are a threat to the public.

yupiteru wrote:

Doctors will not contact the DVLA in these circumstances, I know, I had the same situation with my father in law.

It was up to my Father in law to admit that he was unfit to drive to the DVLA and surrender his license.  I went in the car with him one day and I said 'never again' and would not let my children go in the car with him either.

It took around 2 years in the end to get his partner and her daughter to also refuse to go with him before he eventualy declared his shortcomings to the DVLA and that was only because he was 70yrs old and there is an automatic license revue then.

It should be the same as it is with forklift truck drivers where their license is re-tested at 40yrs old and then every 5yrs and then every year when you reach 65yrs.

It is madness at the moment!

Its funny isn't it, how some people have an attitude toward their driving licence as some Americans have toward their guns ("You can take it out of my cold dead hands!").

On the other hand - my mother in law started being very shaky, a bit forgetful, etc (turned out to be a very aggressive brain tumour, but we didn't know that at the time).

She was like that for a couple of months but still generally OK, but one day announced that she wasn't going to drive any more because she didn't feel confident about it...  She sold her car, handed in her licence or whatever you do.  No umming and aaahing about it, just "I need to stop driving now in case I have an accident".

I wish more people had that attitude.

brooksby wrote:

yupiteru wrote:

Doctors will not contact the DVLA in these circumstances, I know, I had the same situation with my father in law.

It was up to my Father in law to admit that he was unfit to drive to the DVLA and surrender his license.  I went in the car with him one day and I said 'never again' and would not let my children go in the car with him either.

It took around 2 years in the end to get his partner and her daughter to also refuse to go with him before he eventualy declared his shortcomings to the DVLA and that was only because he was 70yrs old and there is an automatic license revue then.

It should be the same as it is with forklift truck drivers where their license is re-tested at 40yrs old and then every 5yrs and then every year when you reach 65yrs.

It is madness at the moment!

Its funny isn't it, how some people have an attitude toward their driving licence as some Americans have toward their guns ("You can take it out of my cold dead hands!").

On the other hand - my mother in law started being very shaky, a bit forgetful, etc (turned out to be a very aggressive brain tumour, but we didn't know that at the time).

She was like that for a couple of months but still generally OK, but one day announced that she wasn't going to drive any more because she didn't feel confident about it...  She sold her car, handed in her licence or whatever you do.  No umming and aaahing about it, just "I need to stop driving now in case I have an accident".

I wish more people had that attitude.

You are dead right and my mother was the same, she said that she didn't want to kill someone so packed driving in, she missed driving a great deal as she was a classic car enthusiast with a lovely old MG sports car but common sense prevailed.

My father in law  was totally different, he had so many accidents in his car, the works lorry and his motorbike but he always blamed someone else.

I was in the car with him one day and he mounted the pavement (he didn't realised he'd done it!) and was happily driving along taking up the full width of the pavement, luckily it was a stretch with no lamposts or people on it as i'm pretty sure he would have mowed them down, next thing you know he drove back on the road as if nothing had happened!  I wouldn't go in the car with him again.

How many people have to die before the law is changed?  Trouble is the Government of the day is always scared of upsetting the motorist voters.

It's f*cking complete and utter madness

Mungecrundle wrote:

My Father has Parkinson's. He can barely walk 100yds, barely maintain a cogent stream of thought, has given up playing cards because he finds it too confusing and I worry when I take him out to National Trust places where he can borrow a mobility scooter because he has some difficulty reversing or otherwise manouvering in tight spaces. Yet he still holds a driving licence, owns and drives a car.

I hasten to add that we have had the driving conversation with him a number of times, but the fact is he is not yet compelled to give it up and is legally considered competent to make his own decisions. He does not consider that driving 1/3 mile to the local shop and back represents any sort of risk, yet the truth is it is terrifying that he is allowed to do so. I have refused to let him drive me as a passenger for over a year now. I cannot imagine he has improved.

Apart from hiding his car keys, any sensible suggestions on how to persuade him to stop before he hurts someone?

I'm sorry to hear all of that 

But I'm afraid I'd definitely go with "hide the car keys", if your dad won't voluntarily stop driving.

Mungecrundle wrote:

My Father has Parkinson's. He can barely walk 100yds, barely maintain a cogent stream of thought, has given up playing cards because he finds it too confusing and I worry when I take him out to National Trust places where he can borrow a mobility scooter because he has some difficulty reversing or otherwise manouvering in tight spaces. Yet he still holds a driving licence, owns and drives a car. I hasten to add that we have had the driving conversation with him a number of times, but the fact is he is not yet compelled to give it up and is legally considered competent to make his own decisions. He does not consider that driving 1/3 mile to the local shop and back represents any sort of risk, yet the truth is it is terrifying that he is allowed to do so. I have refused to let him drive me as a passenger for over a year now. I cannot imagine he has improved. Apart from hiding his car keys, any sensible suggestions on how to persuade him to stop before he hurts someone?

For my partner's mum, we ended up resorting to arranging with her local garage that the car would "fail" its annual MOT and not be economic to repair. Otherwise, the impression we got was that the authorities would not interveen until there was either a massive blatant problem or she had, or caused, a serious accident.

Mungecrundle wrote:

My Father has Parkinson's. He can barely walk 100yds, barely maintain a cogent stream of thought, has given up playing cards because he finds it too confusing and I worry when I take him out to National Trust places where he can borrow a mobility scooter because he has some difficulty reversing or otherwise manouvering in tight spaces. Yet he still holds a driving licence, owns and drives a car. I hasten to add that we have had the driving conversation with him a number of times, but the fact is he is not yet compelled to give it up and is legally considered competent to make his own decisions. He does not consider that driving 1/3 mile to the local shop and back represents any sort of risk, yet the truth is it is terrifying that he is allowed to do so. I have refused to let him drive me as a passenger for over a year now. I cannot imagine he has improved. Apart from hiding his car keys, any sensible suggestions on how to persuade him to stop before he hurts someone?

A sad situation, sorry to read of it.

Can you suggest he has a voluntary 'practical driving assessment'?  If the assessor says its fine, then all's good, but if not, at least he will know and have been told, which may make your future conversations carry more weight.

Mungecrundle wrote:

Apart from hiding his car keys, any sensible suggestions on how to persuade him to stop before he hurts someone?

Get his GP to contact DVLA, or do so yourself "raising concerns".

grumpus wrote:

Mungecrundle wrote:

Apart from hiding his car keys, any sensible suggestions on how to persuade him to stop before he hurts someone?

Get his GP to contact DVLA, or do so yourself "raising concerns".

This is the way to go.  The DVLA will need to be satisfied you are related to the driver and acting in his best interests.  They can then call him for a free driving assessment at your local DVSA test centre.  This will be conducted by a very experienced, senior examiner and is as relaxed as it's possible to make it.  Many candidates book a couple of hours with a professional instructor before the test.  He'll get the result at the end of the test and also by follow-up letter, and I hope common sense prevails.

Best of luck sir. 

Mungecrundle wrote:

My Father has Parkinson's. Apart from hiding his car keys, any sensible suggestions on how to persuade him to stop before he hurts someone?

It's terribly difficult and easy both at the same time. Difficult because your father does not accept your thoughts, and ultimately if you are unable to come to an amicable decision on it, you will be worried for him and those around him. However, its also easy - next time you stand on the pavement look at any passer by, or a mum with a baby in a push chair, or a cyclist.

If you don't act on your thoughts to your own satisfaction, you are culpable, if you *know* he is not capable. If you can't manouver a mobile chair, you cannot be put in charge of a vehicle. It is simply an accident waiting to find a location and a victim.

Some good thoughts here, but ultimately (unless you are prepared to take the keys away or othewise disable the car), you have to report them. That is the only way you can be sure you have done what you can. It is as your discretion whether you tell them what you have done.

Personally I would disable the car until its resolved, and encourage and support finding other ways for the short journeys. 

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/travel-hobbies/driving/worri...

Mungecrundle wrote:

My Father has Parkinson's. He can barely walk 100yds, barely maintain a cogent stream of thought, has given up playing cards because he finds it too confusing and I worry when I take him out to National Trust places where he can borrow a mobility scooter because he has some difficulty reversing or otherwise manouvering in tight spaces. Yet he still holds a driving licence, owns and drives a car. I hasten to add that we have had the driving conversation with him a number of times, but the fact is he is not yet compelled to give it up and is legally considered competent to make his own decisions. He does not consider that driving 1/3 mile to the local shop and back represents any sort of risk, yet the truth is it is terrifying that he is allowed to do so. I have refused to let him drive me as a passenger for over a year now. I cannot imagine he has improved. Apart from hiding his car keys, any sensible suggestions on how to persuade him to stop before he hurts someone?

My father-in-law was the same. He lived about ten minutes' walk from our house but would always drive over. Each time there would be more damage to the front end of his car because he couldn't judge the width of his garage. More worringly, he had problems with his neck which meant he couldn't turn his head at junctions.  "How do you know when it's safe to pull out, Ken?". "Oh, I just have to chance it". We (me, wife and kids) refused to go in the car with him, but he wouldn't stop driving, even though we offered to run him around and the public transport where we live is very good. A fatal heart attack stopped him in the end.