Boardman vs. Boris: HGV Ban

Jimbonic wrote:

I didn't know that (maximum driving time up to 15 hours). Is that in one hit? Or are there stipulated breaks? Given that the average punter is recommended to take a break every 2 hours - motorway signs, company H&S advice, etc. - that would seem a little foolish. I would have thought, then, that one simple way to increase road safety overall (for everyone) would be to reduce that 15 hour figure. I appreciate that hauliers may be resistant to that. But, wouldn't your average HGV driver welcome it? I take that last question from your point about drivers at transport cafes, etc.

It's interesting to compare those HGV hours vs., say, the London Underground staff, who are allowed to work no more than 11 hours in 24, and have to have an 8 hour break (if I remember correctly).

Your stipulation that drivers would be forced to drive in the hours of 2.00-4.00 and 14.00-16.00 is an assumption. It would fall upon the hauliers, retailers, construction industry, etc. to ensure that drivers and other road users are not put at risk by working at unsafe times and with insufficient rest. I don't think it's unworkable, just that it would come up against severe resistance - see Kate Gibbs comments in the article you quote.

So, in summary, I won't hold my breath!

I didn't quote Kate Gibbs, the fatigue statement is on the RoSPA site.

To answer your query about drivers' hours, we can drive for a maximum continous period of 4.5 hours before taking a break, but our shifts can last up to 15 hours. I agree, it is perhaps too long, but we collectively adhere to EU regulations and often have very little say in the hours we do, other than find a different employer.

Currently, the London restrictions are:
Monday - Friday: 9pm - 7am (including 9pm Friday night to 7am Saturday morning)
Saturday: 1pm - 7am Monday morning
Sunday: (all day)
Bank holidays: treated as a normal weekday

Yes, 2.00-4.00 and 14.00-16.00 is an assumption but, equally, if we assume that drivers avoid these times, plus the night restrictions on entry to London, plus the notional additional peak time restrictions (precipitated by these recent tragedies) then I would suggest that deliveries to London would be virtually impossible, commensurate with the need to actually make a profit from the operation. In my opinion, time restrictions can be very dangerous, because drivers inevitably become "keen" to clear the restricted zone before the "time runs out". Currently, the penalty is £550 for the haulier and £120 for the driver so, human nature being what it is, there's clearly a conflict.

With regards to HGV drivers vs underground drivers, it's all a question of supply and demand, as with any other discipline. With the opening of borders within the EU, a few years ago, we now have more than enough drivers, and so wage levels have fallen considerably. However, with strong union representation and a requirement for localised training, wage rates for underground drivers have remained buoyant. Consequently, there is an enormous incentive, for HGV drivers, to work much longer hours than perhaps they would like (sometimes, even illegally), with huge numbers of unemployed drivers willing to work for even lower rates, given half a chance, such is the nature of the industry at this time. It's also worth noting that the average age of an HGV driver in the UK is about 54, and that very few young people see the occupation as viable financially, not that that's really relevant but it's a situation which (and I must be tactful here) could conspire to see a gradual lowering of professional standards over the longer term.

Alas, we've invested our post war wealth in a living arrangement that is far from sustainable and social resiliance is dangerously low for huge numbers of people. It is absolutely vital that we keep our trucks rolling with minimal restriction.

Neil753 wrote:

It is absolutely vital that we keep our trucks rolling with minimal restriction.

I tend to disagree with your viewpoint regarding lorries. But the long post this is from is one I agree with, besides the above snippet.

No, we need to minimise the reliance on lorries. And ASAP. However, currently they're needed as other infrastructure isn't available.

why on earth do haulage companies want their drivers and vehicles virtually stationary in London in the rush hour.

I don't think they do. They are probably there at that time because the customer wants something delivered during the normal working day and that when they have to be there.

If there were a ban on them entering then the customers would have to adapt and couldn't insist on say a 9.30 delivery.

In other words it isn't just the hauliers and drivers who will have to adapt, customers will as well. This will mean customers will also have to accept deliveries later in the evening or early morning. And that may actually benefit haulage companies by increasing efficiency by delivering at times that mean their drivers aren't sitting in traffic wasting fuel. That frees them up to make more deliveries per driver and per vehicle.

Business is dynamic and generally flexible. Move one parameter and the rest usually adjust to compensate.

A bit like engines. Create a rule that caps emissions and lo and behold the R&D goes in to cleaner engines and we start doing 40mpg instead of 22. No restrictions and we'd have all been driving cars with engines on their 2oth upgrade since original design in 1971 or such.

Unless of course you think the road haulage industry thinks its vehicles and drivers are best used sitting in London rush hour traffic going no where very fast just so they can deliver in office hours to a customer that will ditch them if they refuse.