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It's not all roses with tubeless technology, here are some of the common pitfalls

You’ve probably heard lots of good things said about tubeless tyres (better puncture protection, comfort, rolling resistance and so on) but have you heard about the downsides? The tyres are a pain to fit, sealant makes a mess everywhere and there are huge compatibility issues, as we explain below.

- Tubeless tyres: With more choices than ever and Mavic entering the field is it time to switch to tubeless?

- Buyer's guide to tubeless tyres — all your options in new technology rubber

Tubeless might just be the best thing since the invention of the pneumatic tyre, or it might be a complete waste of time. The history of bicycle product development is littered with as many rubbish products as significant ones, in our view it's a big step forward (you may beg to differ) but as the technology stands today tubeless is not without its drawbacks - some of them are pretty well known, others less so.

Here then are some of the cons with current tubeless tyre technology.

No more punctures...

Before we get into the downsides, let’s start on a positive. One of the key benefits of a tubeless tyre setup is a greatly reduced risk of puncturing. The liquid sealant is able to seal smaller holes caused by glass, flint or stones and literally plug the hole because it dries very quickly.

When you witness it happening firsthand and are able to continue riding without needed to replace the inner tube is to be convinced this is the future.

...but doesn’t plug all holes

That said, tubeless isn’t invincible and the sealant won’t seal all holes above a certain size, generally about 6mm, because it’s simply overwhelmed by the speed of the air rushing out of the hole. So you might, in rare cases, find yourself with a flat tyre and sealant everywhere. Messy!

genuine-innovations-tubeless-tire-repair-kit

For really big holes that the sealant can’t fix, you have two choices, either whack a tube in or use a tubeless repair kit involving an odd rubber anchovy which you stuff into the hole to seal the tyre. They’re popular with mountain bikers but yet to be embraced by roadies, you can read a review here. So that's something else you need to buy. The price is creeping up.

And you still need to carry a spare tube

Yup, it’s advisable to still carry a spare inner tube even though you’ve banished them from your wheels, just in the rare event that the sealant can’t plug a hole.

Slime Pro Pre-filled Lite inner tube crop

Installation issues - the tyre just won't fit

This is the biggest problem with current tubeless tyres. Fitting a regular clincher tyre and inner tube is mostly painless, at worst you might need a few tyre levers, but after that, a small pump will get the tyre inflated onto the rim. It takes about 5 minutes.

How to fit a tubeless tyre — step 10.jpg

Some tubeless tyres, however, can take much more time to get fitted to the rims and involve much cursing. The problem is due to there being no one standard that all rim and tyre manufacturers adhere to, and because you need a very good seal with the tyre bead on the rim, it generally involves a very tight fit. In some cases so tight that you need multiple tyre levers. We've known people to give up, it's that difficult. 

When you've got the tyre onto the rim, it's not all over. Nope, in some cases, you need a tubeless-specific pump, CO2 canister or compressor to deliver the big burst of air needed to pop the tyre up onto the beads.

Still, we could all be glueing tubs to rims still if somebody hadn't invented the clincher tyre...

Compatibility and lack of standards

Much of the problem with tricky tubeless installation comes down to the issue of compatibility between different brand rim and tyres, and a lack of a universal standard.

The issue is the wide variation in the rim and tyre size and the bead stiffness, which not only affects installation but also safety. Keeping the tolerances small is crucial to the success of the system because without an inner tube pushing the tyre bead against the inside of the rim there needs to be a really good fit to ensure the tyre doesn’t blow off the rim.

prime-road-race-alloy-wheelset-decal

And the result is the current situation that sees some tyres being a breeze to fit to some rims, and the complete opposite being the case with another combination of tyre and rim brand.

However, there is hope. It looks like the bike industry has finally put its heads together and working towards updating the key guidelines and standards for rims and tyre design, including tubeless and clincher, to ensure all the issues of compatibility are a thing of the past.

- One step closer to a road tubeless standard? And why this matters to you

We’re yet to see what the standard actually looks like, but don’t expect a massive change or need to rush out and buy all new wheels and tyres, as it looks like some brands have been slowly transitioning towards the guidelines, as we expect Continental has with its latest GP 5000 tubeless tyres. It appears that the standard being adopted is based on Mavic’s Road UST which it introduced in 2017 and is based on its long-running MTB UST standard.

It can be messy

All that sealant invites the risk of a mess, and sometimes tubeless can be a messy thing. If you get a puncture while riding, unless you have mudguards you are going to spray sealant all over your frame, bum and back and anyone riding behind you. I’ve seen this happen and while it’s funny, it’s not nice at all.

step19_0

When a tubeless installation goes wrong, you can be left with puddles of sealant on the floor or ground of your workshop/kitchen/office. Try explaining why there’s white gunk everywhere to your other half!

Tubeless can be heavier

The extra material needed to make a tubeless tyre, and in some cases, the rim as well with additional rim strips, plus the tubeless valves and necessary sealant, means that even though you’re ditching the inner tube, a tubeless setup can be heavier.

The tyres are generally heavier too. A Continental GP 5000 TL 28mm tyre weighs 340g versus 250g for a regular GP 5000 tyre. Removing the inner tube however does save you in the region of 100g but you're adding back  50-60g of sealant which negates some of the weight saved, and those tubeless valves are probably a little heavier too, and there's the rim strip if your wheels need it. 

So don't go expecting tubeless to shed loads of weight from your bike but in some cases it can save a small amount. Plus if you're carrying two spare tubes just in case, that's your weight saved added back to the bike. 

Tubeless or tubeless-ready… there's a difference?

Tubeless tyres fall into two categories: full tubeless and tubeless-ready.

Road Tubeless, as developed by Shimano and Hutchinson over ten years ago, and Mavic’s own Road UST, feature tyres that have an air-retaining coat of butyl rubber on the inside of the tyre and can be used without sealant, though it’s recommended for its puncture prevention.

Hutchinson tubeless tyre.jpg

Tubeless ready, which comes under many names and labels, means a tyre with a standard tyre carcass and omits the extra butyl liner. These tyres are lighter but the air-permeable sidewall requires the use of sealant for the system to work.

Some brands, like Hutchinson, make tyres in both tubeless and tubeless-ready versions. Mavic only makes full tubeless tyres using its UST designation. Some brands like Schwalbe only offer tubeless-ready tyres. 

Common names for tubeless tyres includes 2Bliss, tubeless compatible, Tubeless Easy, TLR, TL, Tubeless Complete and various other names. All of these tyres can be used with inner tubes, though you might struggle to get a full tubeless tyre and an inner tube fitted to the rim, it's commonly easier with a tubeless-ready tyre.

Most tubeless tyres on the market these days are of the tubeless ready variety because they are lightweight.

Limited choice

There’s no shortage of tubeless wheels, indeed nearly all wheel brands have added or made their wheels tubeless-ready. Where there is an issue is with the limited choice of tubeless tyres.

goodyear eagle all season tyres5.JPG

The situation has improved hugely in just the last couple of years with even Continental adding a tubeless tyre, and more recently Vittoria has got in on the action, but step back a few years and there were just a handful of options.

- Buyer's guide to tubeless tyres — all your options in new technology rubber

However, most of these tubeless tyres are top-end ones with big price tags. What we want to see is affordable tubeless tyres to make it more accessible.

Expensive upgrade

Wheel manufacturers have been quick to embrace tubeless and a lot of new road and gravel bikes are now being sold with wheels that are tubeless-ready, so you’re halfway there.

If you want to go tubeless, you’re going to have to buy new tyres. Now, unless you need to replace worn out tyres, then it does mean removing a perfectly good set of tyres with new tubeless tyres.

How to fit a tubeless tyre — step 1.jpg

Tubeless tyres are often a little pricier than their clincher non-tubeless cousins. Continental’s new GP 5000 TL tyres were about €10 more at launch but shopping around now reveals they’re both about the same price, meaning you don’t have to lay out more cash to go down the tubeless route.

You also need to buy tubeless valves, sealant and rim strips if the rim bed isn’t sealed. There are kits you can buy with everything you need to get started like the Stan’s NoTubes Road Bike Tubeless Kit that has everything you need in one bag.

Might need new wheels

If your bike doesn’t currently have tubeless-ready wheels then you’re going to need to buy a new set of hoops. 

One alternative to buying new wheels if yours aren't tubeless-ready, and we're not recommending this, is to go ghetto. In the early days of tubeless, especially in the mountain biking world, it was common to use regular non-tubeless tyres and rims and use rim strips and sealant to achieve a tubeless setup. With the higher pressures involved in a road bike tyre it's probably safer to follow manufacturer guidelines and only use approved tubeless components. 

mavicksyriumeliteustwheelset

- 238 tubeless wheelsets — the most complete listing anywhere of your choices in new technology hoops

Easier to ding rims with lower pressures

Lower tyre pressures are very much on-trend now along with a push towards wider tyres, but the risk of running lower pressures does raise the issue of potentially damaging rims. This is especially true if riding a cyclocross or adventure bike off-road where rocks and roots can damage soft aluminium rims if the pressures are too low.

Sealant eventually dries out and needs topping up/replacing

Sealant is the magic ingredient that gives tubeless setups their big advantages over inner tubes, in being able to seal punctures.

Most are latex based but there are some latex-free options if you have an allergy to the ammonia content of latex, or worried about its oxidising impact on aluminium. Latex also doesn’t like carbon dioxide from Co2 canisters so that rules them out.

Stans No Tubes Tire Sealant

Sealant quality and variety have improved over the years and there’s now a vast choice on the market. Many are now biodegradable and don’t use ammonia, which means they’re less harmful and you can use a Co2 canister in an emergency. Some brands have developed sealant that claims to never dry out.

The liquid sealant required of tubeless setup doesn’t stay liquid forever, it’ll eventually dry out. I’ve had many alarming cases with road and mountain bikes when I’ve whipped the tyre off only to find the sealant completely dried out!

Muc-Off claims its sealant last up to six months after which you’re going to need to top it up. In most cases, the sealant is going to dry out long before your tyre wears out. Now you can either carry out checks every few months by popping the tyre off the rim, or an easier solution is to use something like milKit’s Tubeless Valve and Refill Kit.

MilKit - 4.jpg

It revolves around a clear plastic syringe and thin plastic tubes that lets you extract the sealant to see how much is remaining and whether a top-up is in order. It’s also useful if you’re swapping tyres as you can reuse the sealant and it removes the usual mess involved in swapping tubeless tyres.

Tyres glued to the rim

Another downside of sealant is when it comes to replacing a tyre and the sealant has dried and effectively glued the tyre to the rim, making removal of the tyre so difficult that people have been known to clamp said tyre into a bike work stand to break the seal.

We should add this does happen in isolated cases, very often getting the tyre off is a cinch. Again, this comes back to the lack of standards but it's gradually improving. Still, you only need to do an Internet search to find lots of people reporting issues with getting tubeless tyres off rims.

You might also have glubs of dried sealant on the inside of the tyre which you'll want to remove if you're moving the tyre to a different wheel, especially in the bead area where dried sealant has the potential to impact the seal on the rim.

The pros don’t use it (and that’s an issue for some cyclists)

For many cyclists, the fact that the pros haven’t embraced tubeless is as good a reason not to make the switch.

Professional cyclists, with their closed roads and support vehicles, still prefer tubular tyres for the principal reason that you can continue riding on a flat tyre long enough to receive a wheel or bike change. Johan Vansummeren famously won Paris-Roubaix despite riding the last 5km on a slowly deflating tyre.

Tubular wheels are usually a lot lighter as well because they require a much less complex rim bed design.

That’s not to say the pros haven’t dabbled with tubeless. Rolling resistance tests prove tubeless provides less resistance and a few WorldTour level time trials have been ridden and won aboard tubeless tyres.

Tubeless tyres have also been spotted at the cobbled classics in the past as well, a natural environment for the puncture resisting benefits of tubeless tyres to shine. Philippe Gilbert even won Het Volk back in 2008 on tubeless tyres.

But for the foreseeable future, the pros are sticking with tubular, not tubeless.

Sounds like tubeless is a terrible idea then?

If all that has put you off the idea of trying tubeless, we should end by saying that in our opinion the pros of tubeless tyres outweigh the cons. Getting the tyres on and off can be messy and a general pain but the beauty of tubeless is that it's not something you have to do often. There is hope for tubeless to become much more accessible and easier with the industry finally agreeing on new standard guidelines to maybe all these troubles will be a thing of the past and nothing more than teething problems.

Do you love or hate tubeless? Let's hear your thoughts in the comments section.

 

David has worked on the road.cc tech team since July 2012. Previously he was editor of Bikemagic.com and before that staff writer at RCUK. He's a seasoned cyclist of all disciplines, from road to mountain biking, touring to cyclo-cross, he only wishes he had time to ride them all. He's mildly competitive, though he'll never admit it, and is a frequent road racer but is too lazy to do really well. He currently resides in the Cotswolds.

73 comments

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dave_t [33 posts] 7 months ago
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I guess I must just be lucky, I've just tried going 'ghetto tubeless' because I had the bit's required just laying around. Mounted up some 40mm Schwalbe G-One clinchers onto Mavic Aksium rims without too much trouble, used a home made air compressor using a 2 litre drinks bottle to get the blast of air to seat the tyres. Had a few small leaks but a bit of shaking the wheels aruond solved those. I do lose about 4-5 psi over 24 hours but seeing as most of my rides are only 3-4 hours long not a problem.

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fukawitribe [2896 posts] 7 months ago
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dave_t wrote:

I guess I must just be lucky, I've just tried going 'ghetto tubeless' because I had the bit's required just laying around. Mounted up some 40mm Schwalbe G-One clinchers onto Mavic Aksium rims without too much trouble, used a home made air compressor using a 2 litre drinks bottle to get the blast of air to seat the tyres. Had a few small leaks but a bit of shaking the wheels aruond solved those. I do lose about 4-5 psi over 24 hours but seeing as most of my rides are only 3-4 hours long not a problem.

With the low pressures you're probably using with those 40mm tyres, it's less of an issue - plenty of people i've heard of running ghetto tubeless sucessfully, one way or another for 'cross and off-road where you're probably running 20-40psi. Roll-off is not unheard of, but not really heard of a tyre blowing off otherwise. Trying to ghetto, e.g. a 25mm tyre on a narrower rim at 70-90psi is another matter - don't think anyone would recommend that.

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dave_t [33 posts] 7 months ago
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fukawitribe wrote:
dave_t wrote:

I guess I must just be lucky, I've just tried going 'ghetto tubeless' because I had the bit's required just laying around. Mounted up some 40mm Schwalbe G-One clinchers onto Mavic Aksium rims without too much trouble, used a home made air compressor using a 2 litre drinks bottle to get the blast of air to seat the tyres. Had a few small leaks but a bit of shaking the wheels aruond solved those. I do lose about 4-5 psi over 24 hours but seeing as most of my rides are only 3-4 hours long not a problem.

With the low pressures you're probably using with those 40mm tyres, it's less of an issue - plenty of people i've heard of running ghetto tubeless sucessfully, one way or another for 'cross and off-road where you're probably running 20-40psi. Roll-off is not unheard of, but not really heard of a tyre blowing off otherwise. Trying to ghetto, e.g. a 25mm tyre on a narrower rim at 70-90psi is another matter - don't think anyone would recommend that.

Yeah you're right, I'm using 40-45 psi. Seeing as I've got all the parts to try ghetto on a 25mm might give it a go just for the hell of it. Think I'll do it outside though and stand well back when I hit the tyre with the blast air!

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balint.hamvas [7 posts] 7 months ago
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jerome wrote:

You missed: tubeless slowly deflate whatever and need topping every week or two, tubeless do not necessarily "pop" when installed and that's just fine. I am on tubeless for commuting (I do not race) and love it: light and puncture proof.

Exactly. I thought it was a good idea to go tubeless on the off-road wheels. The problem is, as you said, they need to be used constantly or they start to deflate as the sealant can evaporate over time in a warm room. I had my wheels sorted back in December, but then baby arrived, so haven't touched the bike until early February. By that point, the off-road wheels were totally flat and there was not much sealant in it. Now, I try to go off-road once a week at least, to keep the stuff slushing around, but that is far from ideal.

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Jigzy99 [17 posts] 7 months ago
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Two punctures in the first two miles of last year's Ride London made me go tubeless.  Hunt kindly installed the tyres onto my new road bike wheels and I have not looked back. I now also have them on the Kinesis gravel bike with 30mm tyres and have run them at 30psi across some of the roughest parts of Dartmoor - I recommend topping up before going back on the road though as descents were a bit sketchy at that pressure!

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LesP [3 posts] 7 months ago
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Tried tubeless on two different wheelsets sets and 3 different tyres. All failed. 

The first was on Bontrager rims with Bontrager TLR tyres. The bike shop really struggled to fit them - took a lot of time and they were clearly frustrated. Soon after, I had a major puncture which released all of the sealant. I tried fitting a tube but could not get the tyre to reseat. Ride over and wife called. Tyre binned.

Second was with the above rims but with Schwalbe One tyres. Super difficult to fit and like the TLR's - heavy. They lasted about 1500kms before I flatted. Found that sealant had hardened after a couple of months.

Gave up for a while with tubeless but then tried Schwalbe pro-ones on new Reynolds carbon rims. Very difficult to fit even with a new tubeless track pump, although managed to seat one tyre after many attempts. Had no luck seating the other tyre with the pump or at the local service station so went to local bike shop. They used compressed air like the servo and managed to finally seat the rear after several attempts and by removing the valve core. Soon after I decided to sell the rims.  Front tyre was difficult to remove but got it off. The rear required a vice and a blade to cut it off the rim (carefully). How I was ever going to get it off on the side of the road is anyones guess.

Until there are major changes, tubeless is a major fail in my personal experience.  

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Ad Hynkel [197 posts] 7 months ago
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My tubeless record:

Hutchinson Intensive lasted 5 years on the font wheel. 2 punctures that I am aware of: 1st without sealant (a stupid experiment), tube in roadside and carried on, repaired with standard patch at home; 2nd 4 years later, a piece of wire that worked itself between the rubber tread layer and the carcase, which I only noticed when I got home after a day out as there was a bulge on the tyre. The tread was so thin at that point that is came away in pieces when I started investigating. A bit of a pig to mount when new but the Spa Cyles video method helped out, no need to resort to levers and managed to mount the bead back on at side of road in winter cold too. As it got older became easier to mount.

Bontrager R3 TLR that only lasted a year as sidewall slashed. Very easy to mount.

Pro One that has lasted for over 2years: no punctures that I am aware of so far. Easy to mount.

Huntchinson Fusion 5 All Season got 1 puncture (about 4-5mm, glass slash) that the sealant failed to plug above about 40psi. Has been repaired at home (tube in at roadside etc.) and is back on duty at the front. Fairly easy to mount.

All on Stan's Alpha rims.

The seating thing is the only part that has ever caused me grief, but now I just slosh in some sealant and shake about a bit and then give it some with the track pump. Works every time. Might get the odd dribble of sealant escaping in that process but nothing major. I keep thinking about getting a tank but as this works with my setup I probably won't.

I know it's off topic to talk about the benefits of tubeless here but the main thing for me is the comfort and feel. I had Gatorskins before, that I loved for their toughness, but now I know from experience that they are seriously wooden in comparison to any of the above. Particularly at the +100psi I was running them at. I am around 80kg, so run around 80-85 psi on the front 25mm tyre and 85-90psi on the rear 27mm (both measured, both different brands... I know, that might offend some  3 ).

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Plasterer's Radio [551 posts] 7 months ago
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LesP wrote:

Tried tubeless on two different wheelsets sets and 3 different tyres. All failed. 

The first was on Bontrager rims with Bontrager TLR tyres. The bike shop really struggled to fit them - took a lot of time and they were clearly frustrated. Soon after, I had a major puncture which released all of the sealant. I tried fitting a tube but could not get the tyre to reseat. Ride over and wife called. Tyre binned.

Second was with the above rims but with Schwalbe One tyres. Super difficult to fit and like the TLR's - heavy. They lasted about 1500kms before I flatted. Found that sealant had hardened after a couple of months.

Gave up for a while with tubeless but then tried Schwalbe pro-ones on new Reynolds carbon rims. Very difficult to fit even with a new tubeless track pump, although managed to seat one tyre after many attempts. Had no luck seating the other tyre with the pump or at the local service station so went to local bike shop. They used compressed air like the servo and managed to finally seat the rear after several attempts and by removing the valve core. Soon after I decided to sell the rims.  Front tyre was difficult to remove but got it off. The rear required a vice and a blade to cut it off the rim (carefully). How I was ever going to get it off on the side of the road is anyones guess.

Until there are major changes, tubeless is a major fail in my personal experience.  

There is a common factor in your troubles.

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dave_t [33 posts] 7 months ago
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Ad Hynkel wrote:

I keep thinking about getting a tank but as this works with my setup I probably won't.

It's quite easy to  Make Your Own Tubeless Inflator from a 2 litre drinks bottle. Took me about 30 minutes and works beautifully!

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schlepcycling [116 posts] 7 months ago
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My tubeless record:

I have 2 bikes both set up tubeless, both using Hunt's 4 season disc wheels.

One is shod with IRCs excellent roadlite 25mm tyre and has done 4300miles.  The other with Schwalbe S-One (now the G-One I believe) 30mm and has done 3600miles.

Fitting was relatively straight forward using Tesa rim tape and the soapy water on the rim method, I inflated them using an Airshot tubeless inflator.  I use the Milkit tubeless valves which allow me to check/top up the sealant without having to fully deflate the tyre every couple of months. 

2 punctures (1 in each wheelset), the first was an unwound paperclip that had worked it's way into the tyre once removed the puncture sealed perfectly and hasn't caused any issues since.  The second was a bit more tricky and needed the application of a tyre worm, again once in and the tyre re-inflated it hasn't given me any issues.

To be honest my experience of tubeless has been nothing but positive, so far no standing by the roadside trying to shove a tube in where it won't go nor have I had a puncture that won't seal.  The worst experience I've had is having to peal dried sealant of several bits of the bike after it sprayed all over the place before I could get the worm in.

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hawkinspeter [4096 posts] 7 months ago
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Regarding CO2 and latex sealant - I did a bit of googling and found out that the main reason that you don't want to use CO2 and latex sealant is due to the cold-shock of the CO2 that makes the latex start to polymerise (turn into little balls).

So, apparently (untested by me so far) you can get better results if you place the valve at the top of the wheel (i.e. 12 o'clock position) and let the sealant pool at the bottom. That way, the CO2 should warm up a little bit before hitting the sealant.

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kil0ran [1695 posts] 3 days ago
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Just gone tubeless on my N+1 killer/DIA bike. £300 so not cheap but I needed new wheels anyway as I wanted to go down to 650B on that bike. Most of the riding I do on it is on sandy gravel tracks in and around the New Forest so it really needed fatter, lower pressure rubber.

Apart from doing a fantastic Mike Stead-inspired Pollocking of the shed with 4oz of Orange Seal it's gone very well. Top tip with the Milkit system - read the instructions and don't think "Oh I've taken the valve core out so the tyre must be flat, right?"

I'm running WTB Senderos which are about as chunky as you can get on a road bike running mudguards. Deal with deep mud and sand just fine. Can't really fault them. Set up really easy on a set of FSA Afterburner wheels which looked fantastic for about 5 minutes until they saw some mud. Injecting a huge amount of fun into autumn/winter riding for me and they handle well on the road too. Very satisfying thrum at speed on smooth tarmac and I've yet to find any terrain they can't cope with. Now my only ride hazards are tree branches, deer, and squirrels. Gonna need a bike wash though...

Also, it's quite a revelation being able to run 40psi and not have the tyre roll off the rim or snakebite a tube. Good fun cornering at speed on these tyres, feels a bit like drifting in Mario Kart! Very definitely need to set up your line but I seem to be able to lean more than on road tyres (on tarmac). Reminds me of my Raleigh Grifter!

I'm pretty sure the local mountain bikers (there's a bike park where I ride) are looking at me funny, and I suspect at the bottom of this rabbit hole is a hardtail trail bike, but its a huge amount of fun. Come spring and I can go back on skinnier rubber - probably Byway or Horizon or one of the Compass tyres.

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Judge dreadful [406 posts] 3 days ago
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I've tried them, I found them to be about as useful as tits on a fish, the original 2 sets I had, are all in the bin now, I got about a couple of hundred miles out of them, never again.

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Sriracha [256 posts] 3 days ago
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When you witness it happening firsthand and are able to continue riding without needed to replace the inner tube is to be convinced this is the future.

Hello, is that you Boatsie?

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Miller [285 posts] 2 days ago
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Hasn't road.cc told us what they don't tell us about tubeless quite a few times now?

Article needs a thorough update before they run it again in a month. Some pro teams are using tubeless this year, I think there have been a few wins on it. There's loads of tyre choice now. As for the rest of the scare stuff, traditionalists are never going to like tubeless. Or  wide tyres. Or disc brakes. And so on.

 

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fukawitribe [2896 posts] 2 days ago
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Judge dreadful wrote:

I've tried them, I found them to be about as useful as tits on a fish, the original 2 sets I had, are all in the bin now, I got about a couple of hundred miles out of them, never again.

What were you doing with 'them' ? Indeed, what are 'them' ?

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hobbeldehoy [20 posts] 2 days ago
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Never been tempted by tubeless. If you buy good quality tyres and keep them pumped up hard you wont get many punctures if any. I use Michelin Pro 4 Endurance and never had a puncture.

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IanEdward [343 posts] 2 days ago
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The rolling resistance thing isn't necessarily true, clincher GP5000s with latex tubes have lower rolling resistance than tubeless GP5000s.

Might go tubeless on the winter bike/commuter, but for the nice bikes latex tubes are simpler and cleaner. No punctures to date on summer roads or winter CX courses!

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mike the bike [1264 posts] 2 days ago
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hobbeldehoy wrote:

Never been tempted by tubeless. If you buy good quality tyres and keep them pumped up hard you wont get many punctures if any. I use Michelin Pro 4 Endurance and never had a puncture.

 

The Pro4 Endurance is indeed a tyre that breaks all the rules.  It somehow combines lightness with toughness and manages to be both long-lasting and grippy.  I've just jettisoned my second consecutive pair, only because they were worn down to nothing after about 6000 miles of all-season work.

Unfortunately the Pro4 is now obsolete and its successor the Michelin Power lacks the all-round puncture protection layer so it isn't for me.  I'm also wary of buying years-old Pro4s from stock; I've found in the past that unused tyres don't last for ever and begin to craze and crack after a while.

Instead, I've just bought Pirelli's new Cinturato, it gets a brilliant write-up on bicyclerollingresistance.com and I'm hoping they will repay their frightening £80 cost.

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fukawitribe [2896 posts] 2 days ago
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hobbeldehoy wrote:

Never been tempted by tubeless. If you buy good quality tyres and keep them pumped up hard you wont get many punctures if any.

Indeed - if you're not that fussed about ride quality, wood's very good like that too.  Also sustainable.

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Sub4 [80 posts] 2 days ago
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MarkiMark wrote:

Can't add much more to other comments, other than to say beware thinking you can easily take a tubeless tyre off at the roadside to insert an inner tube. There may be some wheel/tyre combinations that are better than mine, but removing a tubeless tyre is a long and frustrating process.

But, for communting I've taken to carrying a small tube of sealant, a couple of those funny little things you stick in a puncture hole and a CO2 can. Had a flat a few weeks ago that the sealant couldn't cope aith, but a quick top-up with sealant, widget in hole, suirt of CO2 and I was on my way again.

Despite drawbacks I get far fewer flats, even though I know I get quite a few punctures (they don't result in flats). For commuting in dark, cold, windy, rainy mornings I would truse tubeless over everything else.

For anyone interested, I use Hunt Carbon 32 Wide rims with either IRC Pro Tubeless X-Guard 28mm in the winter or Schwalbe Pro One 28s in the summer. I weigh 80kg and run them around 70 or 80 psi. Perfect.

 

Pro 1's are a nightmare to mount! Having said that, if they've been off before, it is a little easier to re-mount. The bead does seem a little more forgiving.

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Sub4 [80 posts] 2 days ago
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My take.

Tubeless with discs? Yes. The low pressure/bigger contact patch complements the extra power of hydraulics perfectly.

Tubeless with rim brakes? No. The extra faff isn't worth it & the rim brakes won't be able to take advantage of the extra grip.

Disclaimer. I live in the Dales. Braking power is highly desirable, especially in the (regular) wet.

Also not mentioned. Need to replace a worn tyre? New sealant required too £.

Finish Line Kevlar sealant does seem to last as long as the tyre.

IMO

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dobs [5 posts] 2 days ago
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Some good points in the article, mostly that tubeless is difficult and pointless for bicycles. It adds weight and the "sealant" dries out every couple of months. Why complicate something unnecessarily? Is it the Emperor's new clothes? Again?

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CXR94Di2 [2731 posts] 2 days ago
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dobs wrote:

Some good points in the article, mostly that tubeless is difficult and pointless for bicycles. It adds weight and the "sealant" dries out every couple of months. Why complicate something unnecessarily? Is it the Emperor's new clothes? Again?

It not a faff if you know what you are doing.

Regarding weight, they probably weigh less than having an inner tube.

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Pilot Pete [231 posts] 2 days ago
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To me it’s all about personal experience.

Some claim that their tubeless tyres were easy to fit, simple to inflate and seat the beads on and they haven’t suffered a puncture since.

Others experience is the polar opposite.

And that’s the problem. In theory they are everything you would want - easy to install, simple maintenance which can be carried out at home in a warm garage rather than by the side of the road in the cold and rain. They’re lighter (hmmn), can be run at lower pressure, provide a more comfortable ride and above all else will pretty much do away with the scourge of all cyclists - punctures.

Except they don’t. The reality can be very hit and miss. Yes, sure you’ll find converts who swear by them who’ve never had an issue, but when they do, which they inevitably will some day, then the benefits can be outweighed by the downside.

An example. I have three or four mates who just keep banging on about how brilliant tubeless are. And I’m sure they really do think they are. But, in the last few months I’ve been riding with 3 of them who have suffered punctures that won’t seal. Last one was on Tuesday. It took nigh on 20 mins before we were riding again. Why? Because of the 3 people on tubeless all making suggestions as to what he should do. I’ve read up extensively on the subject and had a pretty good idea of what he needed to do. He is old school and thought ‘just putting a tube in there’ was the solution.

So he starts to remove his back wheel and then others chirp up about will you be able to get the tyre off? And back on? Have you got strong enough tyre levers? You know you’ve got to take the valve out right? Have you got the tool to do that? And so it goes on.

Eventually they decided to find the hole and sure enough it was about a 2-3mm split/ hole/ damage. The sealant couldn’t seal it because 1. The hole was too big and 2. At road pressures the vast majority of the sealant was now deposited on the road in a stream and all over the rear of his bike (winter bike with full guards), including all over his brake disc rotor.

Being told of the pitfalls of removing the tyre and the valve etc etc he started to feel a lot less confident and was getting his phone put to call for his wife. I merely stated that he just needed a worm and some sealant and a method to pump it back up. Trouble is, he didn’t carry worms or the kit required to install one, or any sealant.

Lucky, one of the other riders did, so they then proceeded to fit a worm (neither of them having done it before and unsure of the correct technique). One had to be warned about poking the sharp tool straight into the tyre and possibly damaging the rim tape, so he then proceeded to push it through at a shallow angle. Success.

Now he needed some fluid as mentioned before most of his was now not in the tyre. Luckily, mate no2 was well prepared and carrying the right kit including a small bottle of sealant. I had to laugh as he had one of those fake bottle storage tool kits which was FULL of kit for fixing tubeless punctures and a spare tube! Yep, MUCH lighter than a simple lightweight tube and a tyre patch! Not.

so they get the sealant in and then he finds he can’t get it to inflate with his minipump, so mate no5 (old school, full size frame pump!) comes to the rescue and the tyre is inflated. We are off again.

So, that was 20mins of faffing, agreed that some of that was down to incompetence, but his ‘plan A’ was simply to bang a tube in there. I suspect we would have stood there even longer as he broke successive tyre levers removing the tyre (he said it was a pig to fit originally). And no doubt with cold, wet hands and increasing frustration levels, egged on by the relentless piss taking by the onlookers (de rigour non?) would more than likely have pinched the replacement tube trying to get the last bit of the bead over the rim.

This is one anecdote from the three I have had the (dis)pleasure to witness first hand. All were similar in that the supposed benefits failed when the sealant failed to seal. One of the other two did require a phone call and a very long drive for a very angry missus.

The argument that tubeless had prevented ‘lord knows how many’ punctures that they didn’t even know about may well be true, but unless they inspect their tyres for the thorns etc that are still in them they will never know! I’ve had two punctures running tubes tyres in the last two years. Both fixed roadside (one in the freezing cold and wet) in approx 5 mins. No tyre levers required, simply put the tyre in the well and ‘work’ the opposite side over the rim. Remove the cause, tyre boot if you have too (I haven’t EVER used mine yet), put in new tube, bang in a CO2 cartridge and jobs a good ‘un. 

The problem I have is that there is no standard yet so rim and tyre combos are hit and miss. There are too many variables from tyres that are so tight you can even get them on the rim at home, rims which don’t need tape to ones that need more than one layer. Tyres and rim combos that once you have them on the rim you can pump up with a mini pump to others that just won’t seat after two hours with a track pump, a shock pump, a 2ltr coke bottle pump(!) to an airline with compressor.

And then you’ve got sealant, most of which will not seal at road pressures (so it drops significantly before it actually seals) and then if you pump it back up it can blow the plug out (happened with one of my other mates when he tried to top up his tubeless at the cafe stop after it had eventually sealed roadside), which dries out over time so needs to be checked, topped up regularly and makes a bloody mess of everything as it sprays out. And going back to my anecdote, do you think his disc brake pads are now ruined due to the contamination by latex sealant? I donno...

So, to summarise when they work they may well be great. When they don’t, they may well still be great, but when they don’t, they may end up being terminal roadside. The same can’t be said for clinchers with tubes. There are tight tyres and loose tyres but you can pretty much 100% of the time get a new tube in, seat the tyre and inflate it to carry on with your ride. That’s why I haven’t been convinced to change yet.

PP

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hawkinspeter [4096 posts] 2 days ago
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@Pilot Pete - two things.

How did he get sealant onto his brake disc? My experience is that the latex gets sprayed over your down-tube and front mech (assuming a rear wheel puncture), so it shouldn't go near the discs.

The special tool for removing the valve is known as "fingers".

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peted76 [1585 posts] 2 days ago
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@PP some good anecdotes in there, I pretty much agree with your views. Clinchers and tubes are very simple and as long as you're carrying enough patches or spare innertubes. 

For me personally, after three or more years of running road tubeless, I can tell you I've made seemingly all the mistakes someone could make in the setup and maintenance of tubeless. I've also experienced one of the oft mentioned but rarely seen sidewall pinch flat and had seeping sidewalls tyre failures which reminded me of some sort of religious artifact..  oh and don't get me started on brands of useless sealants purporting to be magical.

Weight is about the same tubeless or tubed.

Grip I have no idea about as I rarely go out to test grip.

Comfort is something I can attest to, tubeless instantly allows you to drop tyre pressure, so I went from 90-105 psi range to 80-90psi range. 

Anecdotally I can attest to rolling resistance too, as I'm a long-standing rollers user, I have my own historical data going back a bit.. fitted tubeless tyres to the same prior tubed wheelset at the same PSI (110), resulting in an 'instant' not insignificant increase in speed for the same HR/Cadence cost. I jumped from 29mph in my standard 10 min warmup to 34mph simply by fitting tubeless. I'm not saying they make me any faster out on the road, but I'd be very surprised if they hadn't made some small difference.

I can also attest to getting punctures and not noticing them. I'll estimate that I reckon tubeless has solved 8 out of 10 punctures I've had. Sometimes a hole won't seal as quickly as I'd like and sometimes a load of air comes out before it seals, I've ridden home on 25psi before. But if you consider that I've saved the faff of changing eight innertubes by the roadside then that makes me feel pretty good. 

On longer rides, I carry with me, 1x small bottle of sealant (about 40ml of liquid), one valve core remover, one set of worms, one mini pump. I've learned too much to go back to tubes and accept it's failings alongside the benefits.

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Miller [285 posts] 2 days ago
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Thing about tubeless fails, you notice them, whereas tubeless successes, it can be that you don't notice them at all. I have 5 years on tubeless now and love the compliant ride and low rolling resistance (which is something else they don't tell you about tubeless) and have abandoned rubber bags completely.

Pro tip for gettting tight tyres off a rim: use three tyre levers. Two isn't enough  because they don't get enough length of bead over the rim. Insert three evenly spaced levers and if you're deft enough with your hands and arms to use them simultaneously, you can lift a long section of bead over the rim so that the bead tension is lost and you can just pull the rest off.

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Pilot Pete [231 posts] 2 days ago
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hawkinspeter wrote:

@Pilot Pete - two things.

How did he get sealant onto his brake disc? My experience is that the latex gets sprayed over your down-tube and front mech (assuming a rear wheel puncture), so it shouldn't go near the discs.

The special tool for removing the valve is known as "fingers".

He was on his winter bike with full guards. His bum stayed completely clear of all latex sealant I am glad to report, however, the rear guard which caught all the spray then allowed it all to drip out all over the chain stays and rear caliper/ rotor. Let’s not forget that a big selling point is tubeless on a winter bike which prevents trying to fix punctures in the cold and wet...

As he left the valve in, electing not to fit his spare tube he needed to remove the core to refill with sealant. This needed a tool, which luckily our mate was carrying.

Like I said, horses for courses, if you get numerous punctures then I can see the potential benefit. I’ve had so few that it just doesn’t stack up to being worth it for me. Can’t remember my last puncture on the summer bike. It all depends where you ride and what sort of crap you get on your local roads, so once again horses for courses.

As for rolling resistance, unless you are competing it makes sod all difference. If I get to a junction in front of my mates because of my decreased rolling reactance I will just have to stop and wait. Alternatively I can just ride ever so slightly slower and stay with them, so I get home ever so slightly less tired. Makes no odds to me.

And reduced pressures? I used to ride round on tubs and then 23mm clinchers with 100/110psi, I now ride 25mm tyres with 75/85psi on th summer bike and 28mm 4Seasons with 75/80psi on the winter bike and haven’t needed tubeless to do that, and haven’t suffered any pinch flats doing it either. I freely admit that the reduced pressures are beneficial in terms of comfort, but I’ve proved to myself that I don’t need to go tubeless to achieve that benefit.

PP

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hawkinspeter [4096 posts] 2 days ago
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Pilot Pete wrote:
hawkinspeter wrote:

@Pilot Pete - two things.

How did he get sealant onto his brake disc? My experience is that the latex gets sprayed over your down-tube and front mech (assuming a rear wheel puncture), so it shouldn't go near the discs.

The special tool for removing the valve is known as "fingers".

He was on his winter bike with full guards. His bum stayed completely clear of all latex sealant I am glad to report, however, the rear guard which caught all the spray then allowed it all to drip out all over the chain stays and rear caliper/ rotor. Let’s not forget that a big selling point is tubeless on a winter bike which prevents trying to fix punctures in the cold and wet...

As he left the valve in, electing not to fit his spare tube he needed to remove the core to refill with sealant. This needed a tool, which luckily our mate was carrying.

Like I said, horses for courses, if you get numerous punctures then I can see the potential benefit. I’ve had so few that it just doesn’t stack up to being worth it for me. Can’t remember my last puncture on the summer bike. It all depends where you ride and what sort of crap you get on your local roads, so once again horses for courses.

As for rolling resistance, unless you are competing it makes sod all difference. If I get to a junction in front of my mates because of my decreased rolling reactance I will just have to stop and wait. Alternatively I can just ride ever so slightly slower and stay with them, so I get home ever so slightly less tired. Makes no odds to me.

And reduced pressures? I used to ride round on tubs and then 23mm clinchers with 100/110psi, I now ride 25mm tyres with 75/85psi on th summer bike and 28mm 4Seasons with 75/80psi on the winter bike and haven’t needed tubeless to do that, and haven’t suffered any pinch flats doing it either. I freely admit that the reduced pressures are beneficial in terms of comfort, but I’ve proved to myself that I don’t need to go tubeless to achieve that benefit.

PP

Sounds like he must have had loads of sealant in there for it be able to drip from mudguards onto disks. Myself, I wouldn't worry about it as the latex should just get abraded away (not an expert, though).

Removing a valve core does usually require a tool. I've got a tiny plastic thingy (came with the MilkIt kit IIRC) that can fit onto the valve body - always available.

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