Should good cyclists do more to stop bad cyclists

northstar wrote:

'you f*****g motorists are all the same, you think the law doesn't apply to you'.

Well said, although i dont know how well it would go down

Like a lead balloon I suspect : D (from previous experience too)

Scoob_84 wrote:

We don't have a horn to toot, so we're only left with giving a bit of verbal (bells don't really count)...and for way too long I've just turned a blind eye to bad/dangerous cycling unless it impacts me.

If it would stop you verbally assaulting other road users, why don't you get a horn to toot? http://www.airzound.co.uk/ and I think there is another make whose name I forget.

Scoob_84 wrote:

When I first started commuting in London around 6 years ago, I used to jump red lights, weave dangerously through traffic, cycle with my headphones on and ride around at night with poor lighting - i thought i was invisible. I didn't have a clue, but had a more seasoned rider actually pointed this out the errors of my ways I probably would have changed them sooner.

Ah right, the vigilante harassment of other riders is an attempt to reproach your younger self. Now I understand! But would you really have changed your ways, or would you have responded with abuse or worse?

Scoob_84 wrote:

a.jumper wrote:

Ah right, the vigilante harassment of other riders is an attempt to reproach your younger self. Now I understand! But would you really have changed your ways, or would you have responded with abuse or worse?

Why jump to extremes??? Is it too difficult for you envisage some middle ground between "Vigilante harassment" and dishing out "abuse" to just turning the other way and pretending you saw nothing??

Earlier, you jumped to the other extreme, accusing Gkam84 of condoning the bad behaviour just because he didn't share your love of playing the policeman, plus you described how you turned vigilante and gave chase:

Scoob_84 wrote:

As soon as the lights turn green I catch up with the lad and tell him "that's not cool, you give the rest of us a bad name etc etc".

But I think vigilante harassment is a more accurate description of your behaviour than condoning lawbreaking was of Gkam84's.

pakennedy wrote:

As things calmed down an elderly gent rode up the road on an ancient dutch style bike with a huge stream of cars behind him. He wasn't doing much more than 5mph. I shouted "There's a nice safe cycle lane here" and was greeted with "F*** off"

Two observations:

Firstly, I've ended up on the road over a bridge when there was a cycle lane alongside but no way to get off the road without causing even more disruption. That was because the entrance to the cycle lane was very badly signposted and left the road on the corner of a traffic-lit T junction. If you had shouted that to me then, you might have gotten similar abuse because I was stressed enough about the situation I was in.

Secondly, we've now got even pedestrians shouting at bikes to get off the road??? Blooming heck, what's the world coming to?

pakennedy wrote:

A few minutes later a couple of guys on very nice looking road bikes shot past on the cycle lane (at that speed I'd expected them to be on the road but they slowed as they passed pedestrians so good on you even if your Strava times were knackered).

They won't have any Strava achievements to post there if you flag that section.

SideBurn wrote:

Maybe there should be an organisation that has powers to do something about this problem? Maybe they could give these miscreants some sort of financial penalty? Maybe these financial penalties could apply to all road users? Maybe in extreme cases these people could suffer greater penalties?
The fact is people treat the road like a playground because they know they can get away with it. In fact I see more discipline and self-restraint in a playground, so maybe I am being harsh on the children here.
I feel no responsibility for other riders stupidity, just as I feel no responsibility for other 4x4 users or other white van users, but mpv users are the worst drivers.... and I have one of them as well....
If I felt the need to educate my fellow users of whatever machine I am in today I would never get anywhere... I agree in principle with what you say, but in practice

It's not just about feeling responsibility for their stupidity, it's that their stupidity causes ignorant people to think that just because I'm on a bike too as some people jump reds, I don't deserve the same rights on the road. It is a widely held opinion by the general public (just read some of the comments on the newspaper websites) that cyclists are a menace due to a visible minority breaking the law, it's not right to generalise all bike users in this way but people do and if telling other cyclists might reduce this belief by reducing the minority I'll keep trying.

Also, everyone saying that drivers don't tell other drivers off, I've thought about this a bit and when driving my car, I do find myself beeping idiot drivers, flashing those without lights on, flashing middle lane drivers, shaking my finger at people using their phones. Maybe that's just me but I think there is some kind of collective responsibility among most road users, the difference with cyclists seems to be that others hold us all in the same regard whereas each motorist seems to be viewed as an individual.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

We are not part of a big club...,

Well I am. I acknowledge other cyclists I see. Wave nod Say "morning!" whatever is most appropriate. I stop if I see a cyclist with a mechanical or puncture. I make sure they have tools, pump, inner tube or need a phone. If I saw a fellow cyclist in some kind of altercation I'd make sure I stuck around to be a witness or intervene as appropriate. Yes I am my brother's keeper.

The actions of the louts on bikes do affect me. There is an anti-cycling constituency out there looking to tar all cyclist with the same brush. I don't want to be painted with that brush. Therefore my behaviour on a bike is exemplary. I choose to ride on the moral high road.

In the first instance I choose to set an example. That allows other road users to see that not all cyclists are reckless. The more of us that do that then the less easy it is to paint us with that big tar brush.

It doesn't require evangelism. Diplomacy and picking your battles is important. But pretending that the behaviour of other cyclists (in the current climate) is none of our concern is pretty short term thinking.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

1. We are not part of a big club, or a religious group, or anything else, we are just individual people who each choose to ride bikes for whatever reason. Therefore, why should we need to look out for each other, why should we feel any responsibility for other cyclists actions, why is it up to us, to get our 'collective' house in order? etc etc?

Community

n. A group of people living in the same locality and under the same government.
n. The district or locality in which such a group lives.
n. A group of people having common interests: the scientific community; the international business community; the cycling community.

Common interests that I share with a lot of cyclists include:

I am sure that there are plenty of others.

The point is, unlike the bald community, the bespectacled community etc in FluffyKitten's poor analogy, the cycling community is campaigning for the current status quo to change. We want better, safer, greener, more sustainable urban and rural environments so it does matter how we as a community are perceived.

We as a minority community cannot expect to be taken seriously when we campaign for resources to be spent on make cycling safer while we are perceived as dangerous louts who have no respect for the rule of law. These lawless gits are forcing us to fight with one hand tied behind our backs.

Of course it isn't fair that the cycling community gets condemned as a whole for the actions of a nasty, ignorant minority but you know what, life isn't fair. People do stereotype others whether we like it or not.

So ....

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

If another riders actions directly impact on me, then yes I'll say something, otherwise good luck to them.

.... maybe you should also consider the indirect impact of law breaking cyclists on how you are perceived as a cyclist and how that might effect the future of cycling in this country and your personal safety in the present day?

@Scoob84:

I once took very direct action against a cyclist who tried to ride through a zebra crossing and nearly hit my daughter but I wouldn't recommend it.

In the days when I regularly commuted by bike, I would get to see the same repeat offending ignorant minority, riding like the rule of law doesn't apply to them. So I would report them to the police. Simples.

Description of the cyclist, bike, what he/she is wearing, location, time of day, type of offence (red light jumping, pavement bandits) etc and I would do it every day, first thing as I arrived at work. If there are enough complaints, sooner or later, the police will put a surprise operation in place and catch the bandits.

Ultimately, the maintenance of law and order is the responsibility of the police but they cannot do it without a helping hand from the public to get the bandits off the road. You are right, we cannot afford to just look the other way if we want to see real progress in this country.

GoingRoundInCycles wrote:

the cycling community is campaigning for the current status quo to change. We want better, safer, greener, more sustainable urban and rural environments so it does matter how we as a community are perceived.

What? Every single person who ever uses a bike is campaigning and wants those things? I don't think so.

Cyclists might share some common interests, just as black people share some common interests (in not wanting to be subject to racism) but that doesn't make them a single-minded community that all form one big collectively-responsible team, or that all of them are even concious of having those interests.

I know some people in majority groups think like that, that minorities have to 'prove' themselves worthy of decent treatment, as some sort of collective group, but I see no reason to go along with that notion. Doing so simply reinforces it, and don't believe will achieve anything.

I will, though, continue to snarl at the pavement racers (as long as they don't look as if they have a knife). But that's nothing to do with being a member of some mythical self-policing 'community', its because they are bloody annoying.

GoingRoundInCycles wrote:

The point is, unlike the bald community, the bespectacled community etc in FluffyKitten's poor analogy, the cycling community is campaigning for the current status quo to change. We want better, safer, greener, more sustainable urban and rural environments so it does matter how we as a community are perceived.

We as a minority community cannot expect to be taken seriously when we campaign for resources to be spent on make cycling safer while we are perceived as dangerous louts who have no respect for the rule of law. These lawless gits are forcing us to fight with one hand tied behind our backs.

Of course it isn't fair that the cycling community gets condemned as a whole for the actions of a nasty, ignorant minority but you know what, life isn't fair. People do stereotype others whether we like it or not.

So .... .... maybe you should also consider the indirect impact of law breaking cyclists on how you are perceived as a cyclist and how that might effect the future of cycling in this country and your personal safety in the present day?

Eloquent, well-set out reasoning. But bollocks. Dangerous bollocks.

The anti-social behaviour of drivers is equally bad and much more dangerous, speeding, not indicating, parking on pavements, parking on double yellow lines, running red lights etc. etc. But the pro-car lobby is not trying to get its own house in order.

We are being stereotyped and pandering to those stereotypes reinforces them. There is a minority that hates cycling and in whose eyes we can do no right. It's not the red light jumping, the riding two abreast, the going too slow, the going too fast, the riding on the pavement, the riding on the road, the wearing lycra, the wearing normal clothes, the wearing helmets or the not wearing helmets that antagonises them. We're just the group that it is socially acceptable to pick on, so hateful people direct their hatred at us. It used to be socially acceptable to pick on many other minorities. Now it's us. Should gays have been less promiscuous, less camp, in order to get equal rights? Should black people have done something about the high crime rate among black youths, or stopped wearing those silly woolly hats, in order to 'be taken seriously'? Should football fans have done something about hooliganism, stopped shaking those silly rattles, if they wanted safer stadia?

There is no house to get in order. There is no 'community'. Most people on bikes are just people on bikes. We're just people being unfairly stereotyped by a transport choice and that stereotype legitimises the same type of hatred that jews, gays, blacks, asians, football supporters and birdspotters have suffered because of similar stereotypes. Don't reinforce that stereotype by making us out to be one big anti-social family. Challenge it by pointing out that we are individuals united only by a choice of transport or a choice of sport.

Cycle campaigning must not represent cyclists. It must promote cycling.

Malaconotus wrote:

The anti-social behaviour of drivers is equally bad and much more dangerous, speeding, not indicating, parking on pavements, parking on double yellow lines, running red lights etc. etc. But the pro-car lobby is not trying to get its own house in order.

Off topic. The OP's article is clearly about what cyclists can do about other cyclists showing us up. Educating car drivers is a separate issue that I would happily debate elsewhere.

Malaconotus wrote:

We are being stereotyped and pandering to those stereotypes reinforces them.

Who here is 'pandering' to those stereotypes? I acknowledge that those stereotypes exist and affect me as a cyclist.

That isn't 'pandering'. That is just accepting that this is the reality, I don't like it and I would like to do what I can to help eradicate this stereotype.

Just complaining that the stereotype is unfair will achieve what exactly?

Quote:

There is a minority that hates cycling and in whose eyes we can do no right. It's not the red light jumping, the riding two abreast, the going too slow, the going too fast, the riding on the pavement, the riding on the road, the wearing lycra, the wearing normal clothes, the wearing helmets or the not wearing helmets that antagonises them.

Agreed. There are and will always be extremists and there is not a lot you can do about them. I think it is better that we focus our energies on improving relations with the majority of road users who don't hate cyclist and cyling per se but are more and more pissed off with the blatant disregard for the law that they witness every day from a small, ignorant, self-centred minority.

Quote:

We're just the group that it is socially acceptable to pick on, so hateful people direct their hatred at us.

If so, that needs to change. The situation won't change by itself. We have to change it.

Quote:

It used to be socially acceptable to pick on many other minorities. Now it's us. Should gays have been less promiscuous, less camp, in order to get equal rights?

Er .. what? Being 'camp' and/or 'promiscuous' can be compared to behaving as if you can break the law with impunity? We aren't talking about matters of taste or lifestyle here. The OP is talking about cyclists breaking the law and/or riding antisocially in a way that puts other road users at risk. What does what adults choose to do with each other in privacy have to do with this issue? I fail to see the connection.

Quote:

Should black people have done something about the high crime rate among black youths, or stopped wearing those silly woolly hats, in order to 'be taken seriously'?

Leaving aside the fashion issues which are again purely a matter of taste, you raise an interesting point. Fast forward to 21st Century and in the wake of terrorist atrocities it is very common these days to hear people saying things like "The muslim community should be doing a lot more to tackle the rise of Jihadism and radicalisation of young muslims".

I am pretty certain that the vast majority of muslims are happy to live in a tolerant multicultural society where they are free to practise their faith and accept the rights of others to practice theirs freely too. I am pretty sure that the majority are acutely embarrassed and possibly at times feel shamed by the obnoxious behaviour of maniac thugs carrying out atrocious acts supposedly in their name.

Now imagine that you are a member of the muslim community and feel that you are being unfairly stereotyped due to an ignorant embarrassing tiny minority whose daily behaviour makes life much harder than it really needs to be ... what would you do to try and change the situation?

Nothing. Just hope that the issues will go away by themselves and feel sorry for yourself and become more and more resentful in the meantime?

Is that a realistic strategy for bringing about change?

Or maybe starting something like this:

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/about/

and/or building bridges to the wider community like this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-22689552

might be more effective?

Quote:

There is no house to get in order. There is no 'community'.

There are many communities built around cycling. They all have voluntary membership. If you feel that these issues don't concern you: