Court that handed down £35 fine for collision that killed cyclist decides on £110 fine for hitting parked car

Sentences only days apart highlight discrepancies in the justice system

by Sarah Barth   January 20, 2013  

Broken bike (CC licensed image by garryknight, www.flickr.com)

A court in Solihull has, in the same week as it  gave a £35 fine to a driver who killed a cyclist, handed down a £110 fine to a woman who hit a parked vehicle and drove off.

Solihull Magistrates Court gave 54 year old Ichhapal Bhamra a £35 fine and three points on his licence for driving without due care and attention.

He hit 20-year-old Tom Ridgway, then carried on driving a further 90 metres, with the cyclist on his Toyota Previa, hitting traffic signs along the way until finally colliding with a tree.

In  comparison, Donna Lloyd, 27, hit a parked car in a multi-storey car park and drove away. She was fined £110, asked to pay £80  costs and £15 victim surcharge, and give seven points on her licence - four more than Bhamra.

The discrepancy in sentencing in the same courtroom was spotted by Bikebiz's Carlton Reid, in the Solihull News.

While the level of charge brought was a disappointment to Mr Ridgway's family it is also worth noting that Solihull magistrates did not impose the maximum sentence available to them for the offence. According to the sentencing guidelines those found guilty of careless drive can be given 9 penalty points on their licence and a fine usually amounting to 150 per cent of the defendant's weekly income.

The magistrates based their sentence on all the evidence presented to them - while our impressions of the case come from the report in The Solihull News, but even so both the charge and the sentence handed down will be seen as troubling by cycle safety campaigners and many in the wider cycling community.

Solihull MP Lorely Burt said she was “shocked and disgusted” by the sentence and pledged to look into the case. Last month representatives of CTC, British Cycling, and RoadPeace met with Justice Minister, Helen Grant to call for a review of sentencing guidelines, in cases where drivers kill or injure more vulnerable road users. At the meeting Department for Transport official agreed to back "a cross-stakeholder meeting with the different agencies involved to discuss a review of the system and how it might be improved."

As yet no date has been announced for a follow up meeting,

 

40 user comments

Latest 30 commentsNewest firstBest ratedAll

Please forgive...I know I sound shrill/strident here but a cyclist is senselessly killed by trucks and automobiles on a daily basis in the UK and it would be so easy to reverse this with some proper political will.

How many unemployed are there currently in the UK? Why not offer these capable people a decent wage to help transform UK transportation in the manner of the Dutch and Danes?

England would be a much more beautiful and genteel place to live for children and adults alike, the health benefits/savings to NHS alone would pay for the infrastructure, people would have meaningful work with their dignity restored and their salary would circulate back into the economy helping to lift us out of this fiscal morass. What is so complicated?

Whenever I read about another death from a truck or car smashing into a cyclist I can only think of how unimaginably painful this loss is on that unfortunate person's family, the loss to England and how most politicians could seemingly care less.

posted by lokikontroll [51 posts]
20th January 2013 - 15:20

15 Likes

There but the grace of god go I in effect once again. The magistrates can imagine that it might be possible for them one day to accidentally kill a cyclist, and so sympathize with the defendant in the first case. They probably sympathize with the victim's family too, but subconsciously think the same will not happen to their offspring, because either they don't cycle, or they think they can be kept safe by keeping them off the roads, or by making them wear a polystyrene hat. Meanwhile, in the second case, they can readily appreciate the far less serious but much more common annoyance of having their car damaged by someone who doesn't come clean. Their sympathy is all with the victim in that case. It is sad that society is so inured to, and dependent on, the private motorcar, that such "logic" is accepted, outside such forums as these.

posted by ubercurmudgeon [168 posts]
20th January 2013 - 19:09

14 Likes

lokikontroll wrote:
Please forgive...I know I sound shrill/strident here but a cyclist is senselessly killed by trucks and automobiles on a daily basis in the UK and it would be so easy to reverse this with some proper political will.

How many unemployed are there currently in the UK? Why not offer these capable people a decent wage to help transform UK transportation in the manner of the Dutch and Danes?

England would be a much more beautiful and genteel place to live for children and adults alike, the health benefits/savings to NHS alone would pay for the infrastructure, people would have meaningful work with their dignity restored and their salary would circulate back into the economy helping to lift us out of this fiscal morass. What is so complicated?

Whenever I read about another death from a truck or car smashing into a cyclist I can only think of how unimaginably painful this loss is on that unfortunate person's family, the loss to England and how most politicians could seemingly care less.

Is that England or the rest of the UK as well? It's true the Scandinavians and Dutch have a very good take on cycling infrastructure. And the Dutch have shown that it's possible to have a country with high traffic volumes and have separate facilities for cyclists.

But it's another thing altogether to think all Europe is being much better than the UK in this respect. The eastern European nations have far, far higher annual fatality rates on their roads, so do Greece and Portugal, although the latter is improving. In fact, the UK and Sweden have the lowest fatality rates on their road systems within the EC and in Europe, only Norway is in the same league in that respect.

And as for jobs for the boys and corruption, the UK is by no means the worst in Europe. The Eastern European nations score badly in that regard, as do Greece (it's financial disaster has a lot to do with corruption) France and Italy. And Germany has a lot of corruption too, though it's better hidden than in Italy for example.

I wouldn't want to bring up my kids in Germany for example, with its divisive education system that hasn't moved out of the 1970s. And I certainly wouldn't want to risk bringing them up in Belgium or Austria, given all the abuse cases coming out of the woodwork so to speak.

I'm no particular fan of our current PM and I certainly didn't vote for him, but him and his ilk are a lot less corrupt and self-serving than their Greek or Italian counterparts.

Robert Heinlein said we get the politicians we deserve.

The UK isn't perfect, but I think you're looking through rose tinted glasses if you think most of the other countries in the EU are any better, either economically or in terms of the risk you face when you take to the roads on two wheels. Most of them are actually worse, far worse and the Scandic nations are the exception.

OldRidgeback

posted by OldRidgeback [2250 posts]
21st January 2013 - 9:18

12 Likes

When this case was first brought to our attention (Jan 17th) it was just after I had read about Judge Niclas Parry stating that drivers need to be far more responsible for their actions after a case in which he presided over was about a moron in a chelsea tractor killing a cyclist, the driver claimed SMIDSY even though two proper drivers behind his CT saw the cyclist in his hi-vis jacket.

Normally we would say "Two steps forward one step back"

But it would appear when it comes to cyclists (second class citizens in weird clothing doing an utterly incomprehensible act) it's half a step forward and two back.

FATBEGGARONABIKE's picture

posted by FATBEGGARONABIKE [596 posts]
21st January 2013 - 10:55

8 Likes

Thats pretty much all of the UK as well.

OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country.

The road safety statistics you throw around are misleading as well. The UK has low injury/fatality rates for automobile drivers but higher than average injury and fatality rates in western Europe, both cyclists and pedestrians included.

You can only point to Eastern European countries (and Greece) as having worse infrastructure or government corruption but considering their historical challenges/recent past I say give it time and these countries will also make the UK the laughing stock of europe.

Poland is improving in all areas at an astonishing rate. And I would argue that Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic all have better governance. All of them have better educational systems as well.

Germany is a much more pleasant place to live with better cycling provision and the education system there is far better than the UK which performs in the middle to bottom of most league tables. Remove those GBP 30k a year private schools and UK is virtually at bottom.

I've raised three children in UK, German, Dutch & for 1.5 years in Swiss school systems. And I can tell you with absolute conviction that the UK school systems are exceptionally weak (almost no matter what your postcode is) it gets progressively worse towards and through secondary level and moreover students graduate with no foreign language knowledge and very weak maths skills.

Most Dutch, German, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Belgian & Swiss children speak 2-3 languages fluently by age 18. My children speak 4 languages fluently.

And they have numeracy skills all thanks to the strength of the local schools.

There is not a single British expat that I have ever met who thinks that UK schools are on par or better than their western european counterparts. You speak absolute tosh.

posted by lokikontroll [51 posts]
21st January 2013 - 15:26

15 Likes

lokikontroll wrote:
Thats pretty much all of the UK as well.

OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country.

The road safety statistics you throw around are misleading as well. The UK has low injury/fatality rates for automobile drivers but higher than average injury and fatality rates in western Europe, both cyclists and pedestrians included.

You can only point to Eastern European countries (and Greece) as having worse infrastructure or government corruption but considering their historical challenges/recent past I say give it time and these countries will also make the UK the laughing stock of europe.

Poland is improving in all areas at an astonishing rate. And I would argue that Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic all have better governance. All of them have better educational systems as well.

Germany is a much more pleasant place to live with better cycling provision and the education system there is far better than the UK which performs in the middle to bottom of most league tables. Remove those GBP 30k a year private schools and UK is virtually at bottom.

I've raised three children in UK, German, Dutch & for 1.5 years in Swiss school systems. And I can tell you with absolute conviction that the UK school systems are exceptionally weak (almost no matter what your postcode is) it gets progressively worse towards and through secondary level and moreover students graduate with no foreign language knowledge and very weak maths skills.

Most Dutch, German, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Belgian & Swiss children speak 2-3 languages fluently by age 18. My children speak 4 languages fluently.

And they have numeracy skills all thanks to the strength of the local schools.

There is not a single British expat that I have ever met who thinks that UK schools are on par or better than their western european counterparts. You speak absolute tosh.

Well I'm not a little Englander because I'm not English and I've also lived outside of the UK and spent several years as an expat in rural West Africa. I travel a lot in Europe and further overseas (the US and China are my regular longhauls) both for work and holidays. I have friends and family in Germany who are both in education and teachers, which is why I've a pretty good knowledge of how good the German education system is at wasting talent and putting people into boxes into which they don't fit. German teachers despair of the system, which has come well below the UK in various international ratings. One friend of mine retired recently after a series of problems with violence in the school where he taught that weren't being addressed - he'd had enough. The university system in Germany results in people spending years studying and then being virtually unemployable when they finish as they have no work experience, although somehow this is accepted. I know plenty of German graduates who have then come to the UK and struggled to find work, or struggled to hold jobs, because they have so little experience of the workplace.

My kids are bilingual as it happens.

Germany's corruption is well hidden as I've said, but it's very definitely there and the country has an affluent class that has hidden its wealth in Switzerland and Lichtenstein until recently until banking laws were changed. There are a lot of deals being done behind closed doors between Germany's rich and the tax authorities.

Germany's cycle infrastructure isn't bad in some cities and I've cycled in Berlin and Munich a lot (and a bit in Hamburg too come to think of it). But the country's accident rate is higher than the UK. The Netherlands and the Scandic countries score well on road safety, and cycle safety in particular. But the Southern European nations and Eastern European nations don't. I've cycled in Paris and Rome, and London is a lot less scary than either on 2 wheels. I think I've been to about 20 of the EU's capitals.

I didn't make up these facts and the statistics are all there if you want to look for them.

Note also that I'm not responding to you with an insult or a patronising comment, which I feel is out of place on this website, just stating opinions and some facts.

OldRidgeback

posted by OldRidgeback [2250 posts]
21st January 2013 - 16:55

17 Likes

x

posted by lokikontroll [51 posts]
21st January 2013 - 19:59

14 Likes

x

posted by lokikontroll [51 posts]
21st January 2013 - 20:00

9 Likes

OldRidgeback wrote:
lokikontroll wrote:
Thats pretty much all of the UK as well.

OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country.

The road safety statistics you throw around are misleading as well. The UK has low injury/fatality rates for automobile drivers but higher than average injury and fatality rates in western Europe, both cyclists and pedestrians included.

You can only point to Eastern European countries (and Greece) as having worse infrastructure or government corruption but considering their historical challenges/recent past I say give it time and these countries will also make the UK the laughing stock of europe.

Poland is improving in all areas at an astonishing rate. And I would argue that Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic all have better governance. All of them have better educational systems as well.

Germany is a much more pleasant place to live with better cycling provision and the education system there is far better than the UK which performs in the middle to bottom of most league tables. Remove those GBP 30k a year private schools and UK is virtually at bottom.

I've raised three children in UK, German, Dutch & for 1.5 years in Swiss school systems. And I can tell you with absolute conviction that the UK school systems are exceptionally weak (almost no matter what your postcode is) it gets progressively worse towards and through secondary level and moreover students graduate with no foreign language knowledge and very weak maths skills.

Most Dutch, German, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Belgian & Swiss children speak 2-3 languages fluently by age 18. My children speak 4 languages fluently.

And they have numeracy skills all thanks to the strength of the local schools.

There is not a single British expat that I have ever met who thinks that UK schools are on par or better than their western european counterparts. You speak absolute tosh.

Well I'm not a little Englander because I'm not English and I've also lived outside of the UK and spent several years as an expat in rural West Africa. I travel a lot in Europe and further overseas (the US and China are my regular longhauls) both for work and holidays. I have friends and family in Germany who are both in education and teachers, which is why I've a pretty good knowledge of how good the German education system is at wasting talent and putting people into boxes into which they don't fit. German teachers despair of the system, which has come well below the UK in various international ratings. One friend of mine retired recently after a series of problems with violence in the school where he taught that weren't being addressed - he'd had enough. The university system in Germany results in people spending years studying and then being virtually unemployable when they finish as they have no work experience, although somehow this is accepted. I know plenty of German graduates who have then come to the UK and struggled to find work, or struggled to hold jobs, because they have so little experience of the workplace.

My kids are bilingual as it happens.

Germany's corruption is well hidden as I've said, but it's very definitely there and the country has an affluent class that has hidden its wealth in Switzerland and Lichtenstein until recently until banking laws were changed. There are a lot of deals being done behind closed doors between Germany's rich and the tax authorities.

Germany's cycle infrastructure isn't bad in some cities and I've cycled in Berlin and Munich a lot (and a bit in Hamburg too come to think of it). But the country's accident rate is higher than the UK. The Netherlands and the Scandic countries score well on road safety, and cycle safety in particular. But the Southern European nations and Eastern European nations don't. I've cycled in Paris and Rome, and London is a lot less scary than either on 2 wheels. I think I've been to about 20 of the EU's capitals.

I didn't make up these facts and the statistics are all there if you want to look for them.

Note also that I'm not responding to you with an insult or a patronising comment, which I feel is out of place on this website, just stating opinions and some facts.

You are correct that the statistics are there and the ones that I see are somewhat counter to your assertions.

Likewise, I have cycled all over Europe and agree that London is/feels safer for cycling than Paris or Rome. But I would much rather cycle the rest of France or Italy than in the UK.

It seems clear then that you know little about the UK educational system. I am puzzled then as to why you feel free to comment as an authority on the current state of Education in England?

As I said, once you remove those 30,000 pound a year schools the UK system is near the bottom of the tables It seems that you are far removed from understanding the state of affairs in UK secondary schools.

If you just do a basic web search you will find all the data that indicates that the average secondary school graduate in 2010/11 had qualifications that ranked him/her at 19th in Europe. Germany ranks 7th. Much of German schools rankings problems stem from poorly integrating the immigrant populations. This is negatively affecting germanys rankings.

See: OECD's Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA)

And these league table figures are plummeting in maths, reading and schiences; only to get worse due to oversubscription of schools, budget cutbacks,and austerity measures. There are league table projections for 2020 and they are grim.

Seriously now, are you just making things up as you go along because this information is known to just about everyone from UK governement education ministers to the UN, OECD and young mothers trying to get their child into a local school that isn't oversubscribed.

I know many German teachers and administrators as well and consider some of them close personal friends.

Yes, there are many things they despair over regarding the state of the Education system (fighting has become as i understand it a recent problem, particularly within the immigrant population. I agree with you that the three-tiered tracking so early is problematic. However there are certain benefits. Not everyone needs to be trained to be an accountant. Whats wrong with being a carpenter?

Anyway,they nonetheless are criticising from a higher standard overall. Non-fee paying British shools could only wish for the problems that German state schools face.

Germany has a less corrupt governement (see Transparency International rankings, see: UN rankings for starters) and they have shut down tax dodgers hiding money in Switzerland, as have most other countries recently.

This is your example of German corruption? Its "so well hidden" in your estimation that you have no hard examples.

And whilst it is true that German students generally spend many more years at university than their UK counterpart they eventually catch up on their lack of practical experience in the workplace. In the UK I find that the average employee is not only poorly educated but needs to be trained properly by the employer on top of this. At least in Germany this is the task of the university.

From 2000-2006 I worked closely in a management capacity, in London, with many german university graduates and not once did any of them "struggle" to hold down a job or even to get one. I have counterparts at other corporations who would almost certainly agree the same experience.

It is generally accepted that this has as much to do with keeping unemployment figures down but this is a different conversation.

Please note as well that I am relying on empiricism and personal experience. Likewise, I am neither responding to you with insults as befits this website.

Good Day.

posted by lokikontroll [51 posts]
21st January 2013 - 20:13

13 Likes

"OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country. "

That's not an insult? Oh, I thought it was. Could you tell me which part of it isn't insulting?

OldRidgeback

posted by OldRidgeback [2250 posts]
21st January 2013 - 20:58

10 Likes

Tell me which part is? Did the "little Englander" comment offend you? I doubt it.

You are clearly being disingenuous. What you are attempting to do is feign offense and simultaneously straining so very hard to be high-minded because you were caught out making things up about issues you know little to nothing about. Which you often do on this website.

Moreover, when I look back at some of your past posts it's clear that you are often rude and patronising to many people who post here.

You have no real understanding of cycling provision,you are a barely believable cycling enthusiast, you have no real knowledge of cycling statistics, the state of UK schools, nor the current challenges of German schools. you just seem to make things up as you go along.

This fact, coupled with your 1,633 posts makes me think that you are either a phony cycling enthusiast troll with a awful lot of time on their hands or you are an employee of Farrelly Atkinson Media and they pay you to make your ill-informed comments on this site.

Which is it?

posted by lokikontroll [51 posts]
21st January 2013 - 22:15

13 Likes

I must be a paid employee then - I'll check my bank statements

OldRidgeback

posted by OldRidgeback [2250 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 9:16

15 Likes

So everyone... what kind of tyres to you all use?

posted by abandoneur [18 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 10:38

10 Likes

Well this thread *started* well enough.

Last night I would have considered trading a very loud baby for a really nice bike.

posted by notfastenough [3351 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 11:41

14 Likes

I must have typed 'Daily Express' by mistake.

www.vulpine.cc
@aslongasicycle
@vulpinecc

aslongasicycle's picture

posted by aslongasicycle [311 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 12:40

10 Likes

I would say "calm down, dear" but it seems a bit inappropriate right now

Dave Atkinson's picture

posted by Dave Atkinson [7444 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 12:44

11 Likes

@lokikontroll Your name suggests you are a troll and I'm afraid your comments suggest likewise. We run an un-moderated forum. Please don't force us to change that.

I suggest that if you want to air your feelings re the UK's educational system you start a forum thread - ideally on a forum to do with educational matters, although we do have a section for topics that are not necessarily cycling related in the roadcc forum.

Tony Farrelly's picture

posted by Tony Farrelly [4151 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 13:10

9 Likes

tony_farrelly wrote:
@lokikontroll Your name suggests you are a troll and I'm afraid your comments suggest likewise. We run an un-moderated forum. Please don't force us to change that.

I suggest that if you want to air your feelings re the UK's educational system you start a forum thread - ideally on a forum to do with educational matters, although we do have a section for topics that are not necessarily cycling related in the roadcc forum.

Tony -

If you read through this thread you will see that OldRidgeback was the originator of commentary about the UK's education system not myself. May I kindly suggest you direct your commentary towards him not me?

I was simply pointing out his erroneous assertions as I see them.

Moreover, I am not a troll (Kontroll is a family name) but someone who speaks their mind freely. Is this a problem for you? As editor of Road.cc you seem to be quickly jumping to the defense of a fellow employee at the expense of free-speech.

It seems to me that you feel quite relaxed about bullying me with your threat of forum moderation.

Or perhaps you are taking issue with my less than flattering opinions about the state of the UK's governance/education system?

They are simply my opinions as I see them and you are free to disagree with me but I don't appreciate being bullied for robustly expressing an opinion that you might disagree with.

posted by lokikontroll [51 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 16:21

13 Likes

lokikontroll wrote:
tony_farrelly wrote:
@lokikontroll Your name suggests you are a troll and I'm afraid your comments suggest likewise. We run an un-moderated forum. Please don't force us to change that.

I suggest that if you want to air your feelings re the UK's educational system you start a forum thread - ideally on a forum to do with educational matters, although we do have a section for topics that are not necessarily cycling related in the roadcc forum.

Tony -

If you read through this thread you will see that OldRidgeback was the originator of commentary about the UK's education system not myself. May I kindly suggest you direct your commentary towards him not me?

I was simply pointing out his erroneous assertions as I see them.

Moreover, I am not a troll (Kontroll is a family name) but someone who speaks their mind freely. Is this a problem for you? As editor of Road.cc you seem to be quickly jumping to the defense of a fellow employee at the expense of free-speech.

It seems to me that you feel quite relaxed about bullying me with your threat of forum moderation.

Or perhaps you are taking issue with my less than flattering opinions about the state of the UK's governance/education system?

They are simply my opinions as I see them and you are free to disagree with me but I don't appreciate being bullied for robustly expressing an opinion that you might disagree with.

I am not an employee of this website.

I found your comments offensive.

I disagreed with your points, but you were not prepared to accept these and saw fit to call me a little Englander, which is an attack as I see it.

OldRidgeback

posted by OldRidgeback [2250 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 17:00

9 Likes

Perhaps you'd care to outline what comments of mine you found offensive (apart from my referring to you as "a little englander")?

I likewise find your posts offensive and maintain that it was you who were not prepared to accept my opinions in good faith.

There were a couple of points that you made that I accepted. You made no concession...only offering a blind, nationalistic defense of England.

I take particular issue with your slander about child abuse cases in Belgium and Austria; and therefore not wanting to raise your children in either of these countries. This is of course what you were getting at and it's repugnant.

Again, I find in hard to believe that my mild rebuke in calling you a "little englander" has really offended you.

However, if you are sincere, then I apologize for using that choice of wording but your attempts in "defending" the UK through false statistics, ill-informed comparisons with our european neighbors in order to bolster your assertions does this country no good.

One should be free to be critical of their country without being thought of as a lesser patriot.

I still dont believe that you have no connection with Farrely Media though.

posted by lokikontroll [51 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 17:42

17 Likes

Fair enough LokinKontroll you're not a troll and nor is OldRidgeback an employee of this website; and no-one is trying to bully you in to silence.

I'd have to add though, that looking back at your commenting history the robust way you choose to freely express yourself does seem to include a fair amount of belittling and insulting of other commenters' views. I'd suggest that if you went a little easier on the bile or even added a touch of politeness to the mix your freely expressed views wouldn't get mistaken for trolling.

Tony Farrelly's picture

posted by Tony Farrelly [4151 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 18:05

12 Likes

Fair enough and I will endeavor to be more mindful.

Please understand that English for many, many years has not been my major spoken language. In CH, NL & DE the communication style is far more direct and I have been forced to adapt.

Partially though, I am purposefully "robust" in my tone and language as I feel the spectrum of debate in the UK is far too narrow which only serves to suit those who wish nothing meaningful to change; particularly as this relates to the safety of cyclists in the UK.

posted by lokikontroll [51 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 18:26

12 Likes

lokikontroll wrote:
Perhaps you'd care to outline what comments of mine you found offensive (apart from my referring to you as "a little englander")?

I likewise find your posts offensive and maintain that it was you who were not prepared to accept my opinions in good faith.

There were a couple of points that you made that I accepted. You made no concession...only offering a blind, nationalistic defense of England.

I take particular issue with your slander about child abuse cases in Belgium and Austria; and therefore not wanting to raise your children in either of these countries. This is of course what you were getting at and it's repugnant.

Again, I find in hard to believe that my mild rebuke in calling you a "little englander" has really offended you.

However, if you are sincere, then I apologize for using that choice of wording but your attempts in "defending" the UK through false statistics, ill-informed comparisons with our european neighbors in order to bolster your assertions does this country no good.

One should be free to be critical of their country without being thought of as a lesser patriot.

I still dont believe that you have no connection with Farrely Media though.

All of this is a direct insult:

"OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country. "

I made my points and disagreed with you, but at no point was I insulting or offensive.

OldRidgeback

posted by OldRidgeback [2250 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 21:22

14 Likes

OldRidgeback wrote:

eastern European nations have far, far higher annual fatality rates on their roads, so do Greece and Portugal, although the latter is improving.

Although Portugal is no shiny example of cycling or road infrastructure, the fatality rates are much lower that I sometimes see trumpeted around. Out of 6 million cars insured there were fewer than 600 deaths on the road during 2012, a number of casualties only found in the 1950's, when about 150K cars were around, and a 15% decline in respect to 2011.

posted by lfgaspar [6 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 21:31

14 Likes

OldRidgeback wrote:
lokikontroll wrote:
Perhaps you'd care to outline what comments of mine you found offensive (apart from my referring to you as "a little englander")?

I likewise find your posts offensive and maintain that it was you who were not prepared to accept my opinions in good faith.

There were a couple of points that you made that I accepted. You made no concession...only offering a blind, nationalistic defense of England.

I take particular issue with your slander about child abuse cases in Belgium and Austria; and therefore not wanting to raise your children in either of these countries. This is of course what you were getting at and it's repugnant.

Again, I find in hard to believe that my mild rebuke in calling you a "little englander" has really offended you.

However, if you are sincere, then I apologize for using that choice of wording but your attempts in "defending" the UK through false statistics, ill-informed comparisons with our european neighbors in order to bolster your assertions does this country no good.

One should be free to be critical of their country without being thought of as a lesser patriot.

I still dont believe that you have no connection with Farrely Media though.

All of this is a direct insult:

"OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country. "

I made my points and disagreed with you, but at no point was I insulting or offensive.

Oh boy here we go. And I thought this was over.

Yes you were offensive, and yes your words were xenophobic and nationalistic. I disagreed with your rebuttal and you couldn't handle it. So I guess theres no room for debate with you is there? Once you say something that must be the end of it, correct? Only you can have the last word on an issue.

You alluded to two european countries (Belgium & Austria) as having paedophelia problems such that you would not raise children there. You made very few valid points but instead chose to make up stories about education in the UK and Germany that you know nothing about; all in order to lend support to your tenuous assertions.

If I am not mistaken you've also claimed in the past that London/England cannot possibly have Dutch/Danish style cycle lanes because the streets are too narrow. Again, low expectations of UK apparently.

And since you claimed to be so very offended after I called you a "little englander" I apologised. And yet here you are continuing this nonsense.

posted by lokikontroll [51 posts]
22nd January 2013 - 21:37

9 Likes

To be honest, hitting a parked vehicle and driving off might only warrant a £110 fine. Least without knowing how hard it was hit! However, the thought that if I speed at say 48mph in a 40mph zone, I am fined IRO £60 and or asked to attend a safety refresher makes a £35 fine and 'that's that' sentence for killing a cyclist quite incredible. Surely even at the most base level, anyone can see that this is plain wrong. Given the driver carried on for 90 metres with the cyclist on his car and yet still in court, his ability to drive or control a vehicle safely is not questioned beggars belief Surprise

Ah, but that was then

posted by Pitstone Peddler [104 posts]
23rd January 2013 - 12:10

14 Likes

lfgaspar wrote:
OldRidgeback wrote:

eastern European nations have far, far higher annual fatality rates on their roads, so do Greece and Portugal, although the latter is improving.

Although Portugal is no shiny example of cycling or road infrastructure, the fatality rates are much lower that I sometimes see trumpeted around. Out of 6 million cars insured there were fewer than 600 deaths on the road during 2012, a number of casualties only found in the 1950's, when about 150K cars were around, and a 15% decline in respect to 2011.

Portugal and France have achieved the best success in the EU in lowering the annual fatality rates in road crashes. The EU set a target of halving the 2010 fatal accident levels in road crashes by 2010. In Portugal and France, a lot of the success has been made through tougher enforcement, particularly of speeding and drink driving. Portugal has also benefited from its new multi-lane highways, which have centreline dividers and replace the old two lane routes between many of the major cities. because there are centre line dividiers, there have been far fewer head-on crashes than in the past.

I don't have separate figures for Portugal's cycling fatalities though.

OldRidgeback

posted by OldRidgeback [2250 posts]
23rd January 2013 - 15:16

12 Likes

lokikontroll wrote:
OldRidgeback wrote:
lokikontroll wrote:
Perhaps you'd care to outline what comments of mine you found offensive (apart from my referring to you as "a little englander")?

I likewise find your posts offensive and maintain that it was you who were not prepared to accept my opinions in good faith.

There were a couple of points that you made that I accepted. You made no concession...only offering a blind, nationalistic defense of England.

I take particular issue with your slander about child abuse cases in Belgium and Austria; and therefore not wanting to raise your children in either of these countries. This is of course what you were getting at and it's repugnant.

Again, I find in hard to believe that my mild rebuke in calling you a "little englander" has really offended you.

However, if you are sincere, then I apologize for using that choice of wording but your attempts in "defending" the UK through false statistics, ill-informed comparisons with our european neighbors in order to bolster your assertions does this country no good.

One should be free to be critical of their country without being thought of as a lesser patriot.

I still dont believe that you have no connection with Farrely Media though.

All of this is a direct insult:

"OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country. "

I made my points and disagreed with you, but at no point was I insulting or offensive.

Oh boy here we go. And I thought this was over.

Yes you were offensive, and yes your words were xenophobic and nationalistic. I disagreed with your rebuttal and you couldn't handle it. So I guess theres no room for debate with you is there? Once you say something that must be the end of it, correct? Only you can have the last word on an issue.

You alluded to two european countries (Belgium & Austria) as having paedophelia problems such that you would not raise children there. You made very few valid points but instead chose to make up stories about education in the UK and Germany that you know nothing about; all in order to lend support to your tenuous assertions.

If I am not mistaken you've also claimed in the past that London/England cannot possibly have Dutch/Danish style cycle lanes because the streets are too narrow. Again, low expectations of UK apparently.

And since you claimed to be so very offended after I called you a "little englander" I apologised. And yet here you are continuing this nonsense.

Me too Loki and I do find that name ironic - you asked a question so I gave you an answer, which you didn’t like. You’ve called me a little englander (sic) and now you’ve called me a xenophobe and a liar as well.

You are right about one thing only, that I spend too much time in here.

I’m curious now what makes you tick, but not that curious.

I've got a question for you now -

What's the difference between a chicken?

Carry on without me.

Have a nice life.

OldRidgeback

posted by OldRidgeback [2250 posts]
23rd January 2013 - 15:31

10 Likes

OldRidgeback wrote:
lokikontroll wrote:
OldRidgeback wrote:
lokikontroll wrote:
Perhaps you'd care to outline what comments of mine you found offensive (apart from my referring to you as "a little englander")?

I likewise find your posts offensive and maintain that it was you who were not prepared to accept my opinions in good faith.

There were a couple of points that you made that I accepted. You made no concession...only offering a blind, nationalistic defense of England.

I take particular issue with your slander about child abuse cases in Belgium and Austria; and therefore not wanting to raise your children in either of these countries. This is of course what you were getting at and it's repugnant.

Again, I find in hard to believe that my mild rebuke in calling you a "little englander" has really offended you.

However, if you are sincere, then I apologize for using that choice of wording but your attempts in "defending" the UK through false statistics, ill-informed comparisons with our european neighbors in order to bolster your assertions does this country no good.

One should be free to be critical of their country without being thought of as a lesser patriot.

I still dont believe that you have no connection with Farrely Media though.

All of this is a direct insult:

"OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country. "

I made my points and disagreed with you, but at no point was I insulting or offensive.

Oh boy here we go. And I thought this was over.

Yes you were offensive, and yes your words were xenophobic and nationalistic. I disagreed with your rebuttal and you couldn't handle it. So I guess theres no room for debate with you is there? Once you say something that must be the end of it, correct? Only you can have the last word on an issue.

You alluded to two european countries (Belgium & Austria) as having paedophelia problems such that you would not raise children there. You made very few valid points but instead chose to make up stories about education in the UK and Germany that you know nothing about; all in order to lend support to your tenuous assertions.

If I am not mistaken you've also claimed in the past that London/England cannot possibly have Dutch/Danish style cycle lanes because the streets are too narrow. Again, low expectations of UK apparently.

And since you claimed to be so very offended after I called you a "little englander" I apologised. And yet here you are continuing this nonsense.

Me too Loki and I do find that name ironic - you asked a question so I gave you an answer, which you didn’t like. You’ve called me a little englander (sic) and now you’ve called me a xenophobe and a liar as well.

You are right about one thing only, that I spend too much time in here.

I’m curious now what makes you tick, but not that curious.

I've got a question for you now -

What's the difference between a chicken?

Carry on without me.

Have a nice life.

I never asked you a question so I don't know what or who you think you were answering.

You chose to jump in and take issue with one of my posts using xenophobia, nationalist sentiment, arrogance and a fair bit of lying. Considering the importance of the subject matter at hand I chose not to let this pass.

What compels you to constantly one-up people on this website with your "statistics" or opinions?

The data isn't ultimately important anyway. As far as I am concerned the importance is in the interpretation and then following that how one chooses to act. I simply care deeply about the safety of cyclists in the UK (as I am sure you do as well).

Now though you post again in my direction and are being deliberately provocative. I apologized for hurting your feelings and thought I made clear that I feel this thread should end.

You refuse to respect that and wont leave things alone. I find that not only are you a smug xenophobe but a bit of a bore as well.

Thanks for wishing me a nice life. This feels about as sincere as your claim to being offended by my calling you "a little Englander".

posted by lokikontroll [51 posts]
23rd January 2013 - 16:33

14 Likes

This case seems like an obvious travesty of justice, and I can only hope that our utterly inadequate justice system improves in the future. How often we hear of how utterly incompetent the CPS is.

As to the other matter of the verbal feud between lokikontrol and oldridgeback, I've read through the thread and would like to make a few observations.

I know neither of these people, but I do live and work in Germany, and have done for a number of years. While I do appreciate the cycle paths here, for safety reasons, they generally make for a more sterile kind of riding in comparison to, say, riding the Kent or Devon lanes or in any of the national parks.

As to the education system (and I work in it) I think Lokikontrol presents a very rosy and one-sided picture. I teach at a University and my experience is that the standards, at least in my area, are quite low. I can make a direct comparison with previously working at university in the UK. I also know many teachers - my wife comes from a family of German school teachers, and those teachers that I know complain loudly, vociferously and endlessly. Both Germany and the UK have serious problems in their education systems, and they both seem to be getting steadily worse. So not much good news there.

As to the bandying of insults, well, lokikontrol, I really think you need to do some honest self-examination.

You said: "OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country. "

You also said: "Perhaps you'd care to outline what comments of mine you found offensive (apart from my referring to you as "a little englander")?"

Well what is it about the words 'ill informed' and 'bigotry' that you find acceptable when used against someone who simply sees things differently to you? To me this is purely insulting and offensive in tone.

There are so many statistics for so many areas of education; whether they are directly comparable is a different matter For instance you gave Transparency international stats (these are very rough and ready, by the way) to make your case that Germany was less corrupt than Britain. If, however, you were to look at official Euro Stats for the black economy, you will see that Britain's is at 11% whereas Germany's is at 17%. So it depends where you go for your information. Tax evasion in Germany is rife - OldRidgeback is quite right. Why do you think that Luxembourg has been allowed to exist as a tax haven within the EU for so long? Why is Switzerland only now being challenged (most effectively by the Americans)? Precisely because both places, and Austria and Lichtenstein, have been convenient for evaded German taxes. Of course, the UK has its own tax havens for its own corrupt elite, but your rosy picture seems to want to make a paradise of Germany, which from my perspective and most Germans I regularly talk to, it is not.

posted by Wolfloid [1 posts]
27th June 2013 - 22:17

14 Likes