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Sentences only days apart highlight discrepancies in the justice system

A court in Solihull has, in the same week as it  gave a £35 fine to a driver who killed a cyclist, handed down a £110 fine to a woman who hit a parked vehicle and drove off.

Solihull Magistrates Court gave 54 year old Ichhapal Bhamra a £35 fine and three points on his licence for driving without due care and attention.

He hit 20-year-old Tom Ridgway, then carried on driving a further 90 metres, with the cyclist on his Toyota Previa, hitting traffic signs along the way until finally colliding with a tree.

In  comparison, Donna Lloyd, 27, hit a parked car in a multi-storey car park and drove away. She was fined £110, asked to pay £80  costs and £15 victim surcharge, and give seven points on her licence - four more than Bhamra.

The discrepancy in sentencing in the same courtroom was spotted by Bikebiz's Carlton Reid, in the Solihull News.

While the level of charge brought was a disappointment to Mr Ridgway's family it is also worth noting that Solihull magistrates did not impose the maximum sentence available to them for the offence. According to the sentencing guidelines those found guilty of careless drive can be given 9 penalty points on their licence and a fine usually amounting to 150 per cent of the defendant's weekly income.

The magistrates based their sentence on all the evidence presented to them - while our impressions of the case come from the report in The Solihull News, but even so both the charge and the sentence handed down will be seen as troubling by cycle safety campaigners and many in the wider cycling community.

Solihull MP Lorely Burt said she was “shocked and disgusted” by the sentence and pledged to look into the case. Last month representatives of CTC, British Cycling, and RoadPeace met with Justice Minister, Helen Grant to call for a review of sentencing guidelines, in cases where drivers kill or injure more vulnerable road users. At the meeting Department for Transport official agreed to back "a cross-stakeholder meeting with the different agencies involved to discuss a review of the system and how it might be improved."

As yet no date has been announced for a follow up meeting,

 

After an unpromising start, having to be bribed by her parents to learn to ride without stabilisers, Sarah became rather keener on cycling in her university years, and was eventually persuaded to upgrade to proper road cycling by the prospect of a shiny red Italian bike, which she promptly destroyed by trapping a pair of knickers in the rear derailleur. Sarah writes about about cycling every weekend on road.cc.

40 comments

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AWPeleton [3263 posts] 3 years ago
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The original case should have been moved straight to crown court and not left at magistrates.

At least then it would have brought a heftier sentence.

As for the hit and run that seems an excessive sentence. What people have to note though is that it may well have been and probably was different magistrates sitting at each case.

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Angelfishsolo [132 posts] 3 years ago
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How can any death be dealt with at a Magistrates court? It makes of mockery of the CJS and more so of human life.

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bendertherobot [883 posts] 3 years ago
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Stumpy, it couldn't. Driving without due care is a summary only (Magistrates Court) offence.

Remember the Court can only deal with the charge that the CPS has brought.

At the very least they could have handed down the maximum fine and ban. But that's all they could do.

Instead attention should be turned to the actual charge brought.

The problem is the evidence. In the second case, the driving away, the evidence is plain to see, accident, damage caused, failing to stop. In the first all we can do is conject.

I still think they're out of kilter though.

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AWPeleton [3263 posts] 3 years ago
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basically what happens is:

you are charged with the offence and get a court date to attend mags court. Once there you either plead guilty or not guilty and, due to the sentencing guidelines for mags, the case is refered to crown for sentencing or trial.

On this case the magistrates must have felt a life was only worth £35 and 3 points so dealt with it and did not refer it to crown.

There are variances to what i have typed above but that is the main route a case will follow.

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AWPeleton [3263 posts] 3 years ago
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bendertherobot - sorry mate, late night at work and still tired this morning, my mistake.  1

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bendertherobot [883 posts] 3 years ago
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S'ok! I actually feel that the driving to the top of Snowdon case was way out of kilter. Some bloke does little to harm people, he's an idiot, but 22 months in jail (he gets charged with dangerous driving). There are few cases where people who do kill a cyclist when dangerous driving get that type of sentence.

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cidermart [488 posts] 3 years ago
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Crikey at this rate it won’t be long before you can run over and maim/kill a cyclist and then take out a case against their family to get your vehicle fixed. I would say I’m lost for words but more a case of probably best not to print them on a family site.

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OldRidgeback [2567 posts] 3 years ago
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bendertherobot wrote:

S'ok! I actually feel that the driving to the top of Snowdon case was way out of kilter. Some bloke does little to harm people, he's an idiot, but 22 months in jail (he gets charged with dangerous driving). There are few cases where people who do kill a cyclist when dangerous driving get that type of sentence.

Couldn't agree more - the bloke who drove up Snowdon certainly is a moron but compared with the taxi driver who killed the cyclist, the sentencing is clearly out of kilter.

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lokikontroll [51 posts] 3 years ago
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This is why the UK needs directives from the EU. England is filled with self-serving and adolescent children.

Continental europeans are civilised and their leaders are far, far more competent. Almost every one of these countries is a significantly more pleasant place to live and bring up children.

I love England but my heart is continually broken by the horrible mess that is squarely the fault of big business, corrupt politicians and the financial elite. This country and its governance class is simply incapable of being in any way helpful, or exercising leadership that is caring of the overall population; it is clear that with very few exceptions UK politicians and the judiciary are utterly corrupt.

The general population has transformed into an aggressive, angry and hateful people, due in part, to many years of this mismanagement, innumerable ethical violations, cynicism and stupidity.

There is no other way to explain all these senseless deaths and sentencing outcomes.

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AWPeleton [3263 posts] 3 years ago
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lokikontroll wrote:

This is why the UK needs directives from the EU. England is filled with self-serving and adolescent children.

Continental europeans are civilised and their leaders are far, far more competent. Almost every one of these countries is a significantly more pleasant place to live and bring up children.

I love England but my heart is continually broken by the horrible mess that is squarely the fault of big business, corrupt politicians and the financial elite. This country and its governance class is simply incapable of being in any way helpful, or exercising leadership that is caring of the overall population; it is clear that with very few exceptions UK politicians and the judiciary are utterly corrupt.

The general population has transformed into an aggressive, angry and hateful people, due in part, to many years of this mismanagement, innumerable ethical violations, cynicism and stupidity.

There is no other way to explain all these senseless deaths and sentencing outcomes.

Wow, dont hold back mate, just get it off your chest  3

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lokikontroll [51 posts] 3 years ago
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Please forgive...I know I sound shrill/strident here but a cyclist is senselessly killed by trucks and automobiles on a daily basis in the UK and it would be so easy to reverse this with some proper political will.

How many unemployed are there currently in the UK? Why not offer these capable people a decent wage to help transform UK transportation in the manner of the Dutch and Danes?

England would be a much more beautiful and genteel place to live for children and adults alike, the health benefits/savings to NHS alone would pay for the infrastructure, people would have meaningful work with their dignity restored and their salary would circulate back into the economy helping to lift us out of this fiscal morass. What is so complicated?

Whenever I read about another death from a truck or car smashing into a cyclist I can only think of how unimaginably painful this loss is on that unfortunate person's family, the loss to England and how most politicians could seemingly care less.

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ubercurmudgeon [169 posts] 3 years ago
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There but the grace of god go I in effect once again. The magistrates can imagine that it might be possible for them one day to accidentally kill a cyclist, and so sympathize with the defendant in the first case. They probably sympathize with the victim's family too, but subconsciously think the same will not happen to their offspring, because either they don't cycle, or they think they can be kept safe by keeping them off the roads, or by making them wear a polystyrene hat. Meanwhile, in the second case, they can readily appreciate the far less serious but much more common annoyance of having their car damaged by someone who doesn't come clean. Their sympathy is all with the victim in that case. It is sad that society is so inured to, and dependent on, the private motorcar, that such "logic" is accepted, outside such forums as these.

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OldRidgeback [2567 posts] 3 years ago
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lokikontroll wrote:

Please forgive...I know I sound shrill/strident here but a cyclist is senselessly killed by trucks and automobiles on a daily basis in the UK and it would be so easy to reverse this with some proper political will.

How many unemployed are there currently in the UK? Why not offer these capable people a decent wage to help transform UK transportation in the manner of the Dutch and Danes?

England would be a much more beautiful and genteel place to live for children and adults alike, the health benefits/savings to NHS alone would pay for the infrastructure, people would have meaningful work with their dignity restored and their salary would circulate back into the economy helping to lift us out of this fiscal morass. What is so complicated?

Whenever I read about another death from a truck or car smashing into a cyclist I can only think of how unimaginably painful this loss is on that unfortunate person's family, the loss to England and how most politicians could seemingly care less.

Is that England or the rest of the UK as well? It's true the Scandinavians and Dutch have a very good take on cycling infrastructure. And the Dutch have shown that it's possible to have a country with high traffic volumes and have separate facilities for cyclists.

But it's another thing altogether to think all Europe is being much better than the UK in this respect. The eastern European nations have far, far higher annual fatality rates on their roads, so do Greece and Portugal, although the latter is improving. In fact, the UK and Sweden have the lowest fatality rates on their road systems within the EC and in Europe, only Norway is in the same league in that respect.

And as for jobs for the boys and corruption, the UK is by no means the worst in Europe. The Eastern European nations score badly in that regard, as do Greece (it's financial disaster has a lot to do with corruption) France and Italy. And Germany has a lot of corruption too, though it's better hidden than in Italy for example.

I wouldn't want to bring up my kids in Germany for example, with its divisive education system that hasn't moved out of the 1970s. And I certainly wouldn't want to risk bringing them up in Belgium or Austria, given all the abuse cases coming out of the woodwork so to speak.

I'm no particular fan of our current PM and I certainly didn't vote for him, but him and his ilk are a lot less corrupt and self-serving than their Greek or Italian counterparts.

Robert Heinlein said we get the politicians we deserve.

The UK isn't perfect, but I think you're looking through rose tinted glasses if you think most of the other countries in the EU are any better, either economically or in terms of the risk you face when you take to the roads on two wheels. Most of them are actually worse, far worse and the Scandic nations are the exception.

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fatbeggaronabike [801 posts] 3 years ago
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When this case was first brought to our attention (Jan 17th) it was just after I had read about Judge Niclas Parry stating that drivers need to be far more responsible for their actions after a case in which he presided over was about a moron in a chelsea tractor killing a cyclist, the driver claimed SMIDSY even though two proper drivers behind his CT saw the cyclist in his hi-vis jacket.

Normally we would say "Two steps forward one step back"

But it would appear when it comes to cyclists (second class citizens in weird clothing doing an utterly incomprehensible act) it's half a step forward and two back.

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lokikontroll [51 posts] 3 years ago
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Thats pretty much all of the UK as well.

OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country.

The road safety statistics you throw around are misleading as well. The UK has low injury/fatality rates for automobile drivers but higher than average injury and fatality rates in western Europe, both cyclists and pedestrians included.

You can only point to Eastern European countries (and Greece) as having worse infrastructure or government corruption but considering their historical challenges/recent past I say give it time and these countries will also make the UK the laughing stock of europe.

Poland is improving in all areas at an astonishing rate. And I would argue that Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic all have better governance. All of them have better educational systems as well.

Germany is a much more pleasant place to live with better cycling provision and the education system there is far better than the UK which performs in the middle to bottom of most league tables. Remove those GBP 30k a year private schools and UK is virtually at bottom.

I've raised three children in UK, German, Dutch & for 1.5 years in Swiss school systems. And I can tell you with absolute conviction that the UK school systems are exceptionally weak (almost no matter what your postcode is) it gets progressively worse towards and through secondary level and moreover students graduate with no foreign language knowledge and very weak maths skills.

Most Dutch, German, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Belgian & Swiss children speak 2-3 languages fluently by age 18. My children speak 4 languages fluently.

And they have numeracy skills all thanks to the strength of the local schools.

There is not a single British expat that I have ever met who thinks that UK schools are on par or better than their western european counterparts. You speak absolute tosh.

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OldRidgeback [2567 posts] 3 years ago
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lokikontroll wrote:

Thats pretty much all of the UK as well.

OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country.

The road safety statistics you throw around are misleading as well. The UK has low injury/fatality rates for automobile drivers but higher than average injury and fatality rates in western Europe, both cyclists and pedestrians included.

You can only point to Eastern European countries (and Greece) as having worse infrastructure or government corruption but considering their historical challenges/recent past I say give it time and these countries will also make the UK the laughing stock of europe.

Poland is improving in all areas at an astonishing rate. And I would argue that Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic all have better governance. All of them have better educational systems as well.

Germany is a much more pleasant place to live with better cycling provision and the education system there is far better than the UK which performs in the middle to bottom of most league tables. Remove those GBP 30k a year private schools and UK is virtually at bottom.

I've raised three children in UK, German, Dutch & for 1.5 years in Swiss school systems. And I can tell you with absolute conviction that the UK school systems are exceptionally weak (almost no matter what your postcode is) it gets progressively worse towards and through secondary level and moreover students graduate with no foreign language knowledge and very weak maths skills.

Most Dutch, German, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Belgian & Swiss children speak 2-3 languages fluently by age 18. My children speak 4 languages fluently.

And they have numeracy skills all thanks to the strength of the local schools.

There is not a single British expat that I have ever met who thinks that UK schools are on par or better than their western european counterparts. You speak absolute tosh.

Well I'm not a little Englander because I'm not English and I've also lived outside of the UK and spent several years as an expat in rural West Africa. I travel a lot in Europe and further overseas (the US and China are my regular longhauls) both for work and holidays. I have friends and family in Germany who are both in education and teachers, which is why I've a pretty good knowledge of how good the German education system is at wasting talent and putting people into boxes into which they don't fit. German teachers despair of the system, which has come well below the UK in various international ratings. One friend of mine retired recently after a series of problems with violence in the school where he taught that weren't being addressed - he'd had enough. The university system in Germany results in people spending years studying and then being virtually unemployable when they finish as they have no work experience, although somehow this is accepted. I know plenty of German graduates who have then come to the UK and struggled to find work, or struggled to hold jobs, because they have so little experience of the workplace.

My kids are bilingual as it happens.

Germany's corruption is well hidden as I've said, but it's very definitely there and the country has an affluent class that has hidden its wealth in Switzerland and Lichtenstein until recently until banking laws were changed. There are a lot of deals being done behind closed doors between Germany's rich and the tax authorities.

Germany's cycle infrastructure isn't bad in some cities and I've cycled in Berlin and Munich a lot (and a bit in Hamburg too come to think of it). But the country's accident rate is higher than the UK. The Netherlands and the Scandic countries score well on road safety, and cycle safety in particular. But the Southern European nations and Eastern European nations don't. I've cycled in Paris and Rome, and London is a lot less scary than either on 2 wheels. I think I've been to about 20 of the EU's capitals.

I didn't make up these facts and the statistics are all there if you want to look for them.

Note also that I'm not responding to you with an insult or a patronising comment, which I feel is out of place on this website, just stating opinions and some facts.

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lokikontroll [51 posts] 3 years ago
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x

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lokikontroll [51 posts] 3 years ago
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x

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lokikontroll [51 posts] 3 years ago
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OldRidgeback wrote:
lokikontroll wrote:

Thats pretty much all of the UK as well.

OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country.

The road safety statistics you throw around are misleading as well. The UK has low injury/fatality rates for automobile drivers but higher than average injury and fatality rates in western Europe, both cyclists and pedestrians included.

You can only point to Eastern European countries (and Greece) as having worse infrastructure or government corruption but considering their historical challenges/recent past I say give it time and these countries will also make the UK the laughing stock of europe.

Poland is improving in all areas at an astonishing rate. And I would argue that Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic all have better governance. All of them have better educational systems as well.

Germany is a much more pleasant place to live with better cycling provision and the education system there is far better than the UK which performs in the middle to bottom of most league tables. Remove those GBP 30k a year private schools and UK is virtually at bottom.

I've raised three children in UK, German, Dutch & for 1.5 years in Swiss school systems. And I can tell you with absolute conviction that the UK school systems are exceptionally weak (almost no matter what your postcode is) it gets progressively worse towards and through secondary level and moreover students graduate with no foreign language knowledge and very weak maths skills.

Most Dutch, German, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Belgian & Swiss children speak 2-3 languages fluently by age 18. My children speak 4 languages fluently.

And they have numeracy skills all thanks to the strength of the local schools.

There is not a single British expat that I have ever met who thinks that UK schools are on par or better than their western european counterparts. You speak absolute tosh.

Well I'm not a little Englander because I'm not English and I've also lived outside of the UK and spent several years as an expat in rural West Africa. I travel a lot in Europe and further overseas (the US and China are my regular longhauls) both for work and holidays. I have friends and family in Germany who are both in education and teachers, which is why I've a pretty good knowledge of how good the German education system is at wasting talent and putting people into boxes into which they don't fit. German teachers despair of the system, which has come well below the UK in various international ratings. One friend of mine retired recently after a series of problems with violence in the school where he taught that weren't being addressed - he'd had enough. The university system in Germany results in people spending years studying and then being virtually unemployable when they finish as they have no work experience, although somehow this is accepted. I know plenty of German graduates who have then come to the UK and struggled to find work, or struggled to hold jobs, because they have so little experience of the workplace.

My kids are bilingual as it happens.

Germany's corruption is well hidden as I've said, but it's very definitely there and the country has an affluent class that has hidden its wealth in Switzerland and Lichtenstein until recently until banking laws were changed. There are a lot of deals being done behind closed doors between Germany's rich and the tax authorities.

Germany's cycle infrastructure isn't bad in some cities and I've cycled in Berlin and Munich a lot (and a bit in Hamburg too come to think of it). But the country's accident rate is higher than the UK. The Netherlands and the Scandic countries score well on road safety, and cycle safety in particular. But the Southern European nations and Eastern European nations don't. I've cycled in Paris and Rome, and London is a lot less scary than either on 2 wheels. I think I've been to about 20 of the EU's capitals.

I didn't make up these facts and the statistics are all there if you want to look for them.

Note also that I'm not responding to you with an insult or a patronising comment, which I feel is out of place on this website, just stating opinions and some facts.

You are correct that the statistics are there and the ones that I see are somewhat counter to your assertions.

Likewise, I have cycled all over Europe and agree that London is/feels safer for cycling than Paris or Rome. But I would much rather cycle the rest of France or Italy than in the UK.

It seems clear then that you know little about the UK educational system. I am puzzled then as to why you feel free to comment as an authority on the current state of Education in England?

As I said, once you remove those 30,000 pound a year schools the UK system is near the bottom of the tables It seems that you are far removed from understanding the state of affairs in UK secondary schools.

If you just do a basic web search you will find all the data that indicates that the average secondary school graduate in 2010/11 had qualifications that ranked him/her at 19th in Europe. Germany ranks 7th. Much of German schools rankings problems stem from poorly integrating the immigrant populations. This is negatively affecting germanys rankings.

See: OECD's Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA)

And these league table figures are plummeting in maths, reading and schiences; only to get worse due to oversubscription of schools, budget cutbacks,and austerity measures. There are league table projections for 2020 and they are grim.

Seriously now, are you just making things up as you go along because this information is known to just about everyone from UK governement education ministers to the UN, OECD and young mothers trying to get their child into a local school that isn't oversubscribed.

I know many German teachers and administrators as well and consider some of them close personal friends.

Yes, there are many things they despair over regarding the state of the Education system (fighting has become as i understand it a recent problem, particularly within the immigrant population. I agree with you that the three-tiered tracking so early is problematic. However there are certain benefits. Not everyone needs to be trained to be an accountant. Whats wrong with being a carpenter?

Anyway,they nonetheless are criticising from a higher standard overall. Non-fee paying British shools could only wish for the problems that German state schools face.

Germany has a less corrupt governement (see Transparency International rankings, see: UN rankings for starters) and they have shut down tax dodgers hiding money in Switzerland, as have most other countries recently.

This is your example of German corruption? Its "so well hidden" in your estimation that you have no hard examples.

And whilst it is true that German students generally spend many more years at university than their UK counterpart they eventually catch up on their lack of practical experience in the workplace. In the UK I find that the average employee is not only poorly educated but needs to be trained properly by the employer on top of this. At least in Germany this is the task of the university.

From 2000-2006 I worked closely in a management capacity, in London, with many german university graduates and not once did any of them "struggle" to hold down a job or even to get one. I have counterparts at other corporations who would almost certainly agree the same experience.

It is generally accepted that this has as much to do with keeping unemployment figures down but this is a different conversation.

Please note as well that I am relying on empiricism and personal experience. Likewise, I am neither responding to you with insults as befits this website.

Good Day.

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OldRidgeback [2567 posts] 3 years ago
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"OldRidgeback, you sound like a little Englander with your weak, ill informed defense. Your soft bigotry of low expectations for British people only ensures to keep the UK as a low performing european country. "

That's not an insult? Oh, I thought it was. Could you tell me which part of it isn't insulting?

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lokikontroll [51 posts] 3 years ago
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Tell me which part is? Did the "little Englander" comment offend you? I doubt it.

You are clearly being disingenuous. What you are attempting to do is feign offense and simultaneously straining so very hard to be high-minded because you were caught out making things up about issues you know little to nothing about. Which you often do on this website.

Moreover, when I look back at some of your past posts it's clear that you are often rude and patronising to many people who post here.

You have no real understanding of cycling provision,you are a barely believable cycling enthusiast, you have no real knowledge of cycling statistics, the state of UK schools, nor the current challenges of German schools. you just seem to make things up as you go along.

This fact, coupled with your 1,633 posts makes me think that you are either a phony cycling enthusiast troll with a awful lot of time on their hands or you are an employee of Farrelly Atkinson Media and they pay you to make your ill-informed comments on this site.

Which is it?

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OldRidgeback [2567 posts] 3 years ago
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I must be a paid employee then - I'll check my bank statements

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abandoneur [18 posts] 3 years ago
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So everyone... what kind of tyres to you all use?

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notfastenough [3665 posts] 3 years ago
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Well this thread *started* well enough.

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aslongasicycle [382 posts] 3 years ago
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I must have typed 'Daily Express' by mistake.

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dave atkinson [6201 posts] 3 years ago
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I would say "calm down, dear" but it seems a bit inappropriate right now

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Tony Farrelly [2868 posts] 3 years ago
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@lokikontroll Your name suggests you are a troll and I'm afraid your comments suggest likewise. We run an un-moderated forum. Please don't force us to change that.

I suggest that if you want to air your feelings re the UK's educational system you start a forum thread - ideally on a forum to do with educational matters, although we do have a section for topics that are not necessarily cycling related in the roadcc forum.

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lokikontroll [51 posts] 3 years ago
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tony_farrelly wrote:

@lokikontroll Your name suggests you are a troll and I'm afraid your comments suggest likewise. We run an un-moderated forum. Please don't force us to change that.

I suggest that if you want to air your feelings re the UK's educational system you start a forum thread - ideally on a forum to do with educational matters, although we do have a section for topics that are not necessarily cycling related in the roadcc forum.

Tony -

If you read through this thread you will see that OldRidgeback was the originator of commentary about the UK's education system not myself. May I kindly suggest you direct your commentary towards him not me?

I was simply pointing out his erroneous assertions as I see them.

Moreover, I am not a troll (Kontroll is a family name) but someone who speaks their mind freely. Is this a problem for you? As editor of Road.cc you seem to be quickly jumping to the defense of a fellow employee at the expense of free-speech.

It seems to me that you feel quite relaxed about bullying me with your threat of forum moderation.

Or perhaps you are taking issue with my less than flattering opinions about the state of the UK's governance/education system?

They are simply my opinions as I see them and you are free to disagree with me but I don't appreciate being bullied for robustly expressing an opinion that you might disagree with.

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OldRidgeback [2567 posts] 3 years ago
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lokikontroll wrote:
tony_farrelly wrote:

@lokikontroll Your name suggests you are a troll and I'm afraid your comments suggest likewise. We run an un-moderated forum. Please don't force us to change that.

I suggest that if you want to air your feelings re the UK's educational system you start a forum thread - ideally on a forum to do with educational matters, although we do have a section for topics that are not necessarily cycling related in the roadcc forum.

Tony -

If you read through this thread you will see that OldRidgeback was the originator of commentary about the UK's education system not myself. May I kindly suggest you direct your commentary towards him not me?

I was simply pointing out his erroneous assertions as I see them.

Moreover, I am not a troll (Kontroll is a family name) but someone who speaks their mind freely. Is this a problem for you? As editor of Road.cc you seem to be quickly jumping to the defense of a fellow employee at the expense of free-speech.

It seems to me that you feel quite relaxed about bullying me with your threat of forum moderation.

Or perhaps you are taking issue with my less than flattering opinions about the state of the UK's governance/education system?

They are simply my opinions as I see them and you are free to disagree with me but I don't appreciate being bullied for robustly expressing an opinion that you might disagree with.

I am not an employee of this website.

I found your comments offensive.

I disagreed with your points, but you were not prepared to accept these and saw fit to call me a little Englander, which is an attack as I see it.

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lokikontroll [51 posts] 3 years ago
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Perhaps you'd care to outline what comments of mine you found offensive (apart from my referring to you as "a little englander")?

I likewise find your posts offensive and maintain that it was you who were not prepared to accept my opinions in good faith.

There were a couple of points that you made that I accepted. You made no concession...only offering a blind, nationalistic defense of England.

I take particular issue with your slander about child abuse cases in Belgium and Austria; and therefore not wanting to raise your children in either of these countries. This is of course what you were getting at and it's repugnant.

Again, I find in hard to believe that my mild rebuke in calling you a "little englander" has really offended you.

However, if you are sincere, then I apologize for using that choice of wording but your attempts in "defending" the UK through false statistics, ill-informed comparisons with our european neighbors in order to bolster your assertions does this country no good.

One should be free to be critical of their country without being thought of as a lesser patriot.

I still dont believe that you have no connection with Farrely Media though.

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