Lance Armstrong - USADA produces "overwhelming" evidence

11 riders who gave evidence named in pre-publication statement

by Tony Farrelly   October 10, 2012  

Syringe

Some 1,200 pages of evidence collected by the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) will later today be thudding through the letterbox at the UCI headquarters in Aigle - or at least taking quite a long time to squeeze in to the UCI inbox.

The document, the largest of its kind ever compiled by the agency, contains eyewitness, documentary, first-hand, scientific, direct and circumstantial evidence which USADA's CEO, Travis Tygart said in a statement ahead of publication revealed "conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy."

In a long statement ahead of publication of the evidence on the USADA website, Tygart also named the former USPS riders who had given evidence against Armstrong.

Those were Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.

All but the Canadian Barry are American, and every American who rode the Tour de France for US Postal and its successor team Disccovery Channel from 1999 to 2005, the seven editions Armstrong won, has provided testimony to USADA - other than Armstrong himself, and Kevin Livingston, who rode in the 1999 and 2000 editions.

Livingston himself, Nowadays he runs the Pedal Hard Training Center at Mellow Johnny's - the Austin, Texas bike shop owned by Armstrong is implicated in doping in USADA's reasoned decision, and the agency has said that its investigation into doping will continue and that others will be charged.

Immediately after publication of the USADA statement, George Hincapie released a statement of his own. In which he admitted using banned substances until 2006.

That was the year after Armstrong's first retirement, and Hincapie himself would ride one more season with the team, by then named Discovery Channel, before switching to High Road in 2008.

"Because of my love for the sport, the contributions I feel I have made to it, and the amount the sport of cycling has given to me over the years, it is extremely difficult today to acknowledge that during a part of my career I used banned substances.

"Early in my professional career, it became clear to me that, given the widespread use of performance enhancing drugs by cyclists at the top of the profession, it was not possible to compete at the highest level without them.

"I deeply regret that choice and sincerely apologize to my family, teammates and fans."

The three-time US national champion, a stalwart of the USPS and Discovery Channel teams, also said that since 2006 "Quietly, and in the way I know best, I have been trying to rectify that decision. I have competed clean and have not used any performance enhancing drugs or processes for the past six years."

Tygart thanked the rider for their bravery in coming forward and also backed calls for a Truth and Reconciliation Commission - an idea floated by UCI President, Pat McQuaid - as the best way for cycling to move on and establish a new culture of clean competition.

USADA statement

Today, we are sending the ‘Reasoned Decision’ in the Lance Armstrong case and supporting information to the Union Cycliste International (UCI), the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), and the World Triathlon Corporation (WTC). The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.  

The evidence of the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team-run scheme is overwhelming and is in excess of 1000 pages, and includes sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the US Postal Service Team (USPS Team) and its participants’ doping activities. The evidence also includes direct documentary evidence including financial payments, emails, scientific data and laboratory test results that further prove the use, possession and distribution of performance enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong and confirm the disappointing truth about the deceptive activities of the USPS Team, a team that received tens of millions of American taxpayer dollars in funding. 

Together these different categories of eyewitness, documentary, first-hand, scientific, direct and circumstantial evidence reveal conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy. All of the material will be made available later this afternoon on the USADA website at www.usada.org.

The USPS Team doping conspiracy was professionally designed to groom and pressure athletes to use dangerous drugs, to evade detection, to ensure its secrecy and ultimately gain an unfair competitive advantage through superior doping practices. A program organized by individuals who thought they were above the rules and who still play a major and active role in sport today. 

The evidence demonstrates that the ‘Code of Silence’ of performance enhancing drug use in the sport of cycling has been shattered, but there is more to do.  From day one, we always hoped this investigation would bring to a close this troubling chapter in cycling’s history and we hope the sport will use this tragedy to prevent it from ever happening again.

Of course, no one wants to be chained to the past forever, and I would call on the UCI to act on its own recent suggestion for a meaningful Truth and Reconciliation program.  While we appreciate the arguments that weigh in favor of and against such a program, we believe that allowing individuals like the riders mentioned today to come forward and acknowledge the truth about their past doping may be the only way to truly dismantle the remaining system that allowed this “EPO and Blood Doping Era” to flourish. Hopefully, the sport can unshackle itself from the past, and once and for all continue to move forward to a better future.

Our mission is to protect clean athletes by preserving the integrity of competition not only for today’s athletes but also the athletes of tomorrow.  We have heard from many athletes who have faced an unfair dilemma — dope, or don’t compete at the highest levels of the sport. Many of them abandoned their dreams and left sport because they refused to endanger their health and participate in doping. That is a tragic choice no athlete should have to make.

It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully. It is not easy to admit your mistakes and accept your punishment. But that is what these riders have done for the good of the sport, and for the young riders who hope to one day reach their dreams without using dangerous drugs or methods.

These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.

The riders who participated in the USPS Team doping conspiracy and truthfully assisted have been courageous in making the choice to stop perpetuating the sporting fraud, and they have suffered greatly. In addition to the public revelations, the active riders have been suspended and disqualified appropriately in line with the rules. In some part, it would have been easier for them if it all would just go away; however, they love the sport, and they want to help young athletes have hope that they are not put in the position they were -- to face the reality that in order to climb to the heights of their sport they had to sink to the depths of dangerous cheating.

I have personally talked with and heard these athletes’ stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike.

Lance Armstrong was given the same opportunity to come forward and be part of the solution. He rejected it.

Instead he exercised his legal right not to contest the evidence and knowingly accepted the imposition of a ban from recognized competition for life and disqualification of his competitive results from 1998 forward. The entire factual and legal basis on the outcome in his case and the other six active riders’ cases will be provided in the materials made available online later today. Two other members of the USPS Team, Dr. Michele Ferrari and Dr. Garcia del Moral, also received lifetime bans for perpetrating this doping conspiracy.

Three other members of the USPS Team have chosen to contest the charges and take their cases to arbitration: Johan Bruyneel, the team director; Dr. Pedro Celaya, a team doctor; and Jose “Pepe” Marti, the team trainer.  These three individuals will receive a full hearing before independent judges, where they will have the opportunity to present and confront the evidence, cross-examine witnesses and testify under oath in a public proceeding.

From day one in this case, as in every potential case, the USADA Board of Directors and professional staff did the job we are mandated to do for clean athletes and the integrity of sport.  We focused solely on finding the truth without being influenced by celebrity or non-celebrity, threats, personal attacks or political pressure because that is what clean athletes deserve and demand.”

More to follow

65 user comments

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notfastenough wrote:
Darthshearer wrote:
Wonder if Wiggins will say anything about the Tour winning advice Lance gave him.......

Reading through this, Brailsford needs to come out man. Sky stink of sh!t with this dossier.

Yates - Ex Doper and ex Team mate of Lance.
Barry, Leinders.

Transparency, yeh, we can see straight through you Dave!

Well Yates I don't know, I suspect he was probably quite strongly anti-doping for DB to take him on. Leinders they're not working with any more, and as for Barry, well, do BMC smell for having George riding? Sorry, but aside from Yates, it sounds like you're looking for a conspiracy theory. But since DB is transparent, what do you think they're up to?

Update: excerpt from Barry's website:
"From 2006 until the end of my career in 2012, I chose to race for teams that took a strong stance against doping. Although I never confessed to my past, I wrote and spoke about the need for change."

Can't see how that makes Sky look bad at all, it actually implies that even from the inside, Sky's anti-doping stance is the real deal.

Yates tested positive and worked with Armstrong...........

Sky stance was not to work with anyone with a doping background.

posted by Darthshearer [141 posts]
11th October 2012 - 8:56

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Not forgetting Fabio Bartalucci and Morris Possoni Wink

Gkam84's picture

posted by Gkam84 [8698 posts]
11th October 2012 - 9:09

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Exactly and Dave Bruyneel has the audacity to go on Radio5 and say Sky have had no connection with doping.

GTFO Brailsford.

posted by Darthshearer [141 posts]
11th October 2012 - 9:17

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Also, isnt it funny how Sky announce Leinders employment termination 24h before this all comes out?

posted by Darthshearer [141 posts]
11th October 2012 - 9:18

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Darthshearer wrote:
notfastenough wrote:
Darthshearer wrote:
Wonder if Wiggins will say anything about the Tour winning advice Lance gave him.......

Reading through this, Brailsford needs to come out man. Sky stink of sh!t with this dossier.

Yates - Ex Doper and ex Team mate of Lance.
Barry, Leinders.

Transparency, yeh, we can see straight through you Dave!

Well Yates I don't know, I suspect he was probably quite strongly anti-doping for DB to take him on. Leinders they're not working with any more, and as for Barry, well, do BMC smell for having George riding? Sorry, but aside from Yates, it sounds like you're looking for a conspiracy theory. But since DB is transparent, what do you think they're up to?

Update: excerpt from Barry's website:
"From 2006 until the end of my career in 2012, I chose to race for teams that took a strong stance against doping. Although I never confessed to my past, I wrote and spoke about the need for change."

Can't see how that makes Sky look bad at all, it actually implies that even from the inside, Sky's anti-doping stance is the real deal.

Yates tested positive and worked with Armstrong...........

Sky stance was not to work with anyone with a doping background.

Absolutely, and I'm not arguing that DB has made a bit of a rod for his own back with the way that has been expressed, but he has also changed that position slightly by conceding that you can't run a top-flight team with sufficiently experienced people untouched by drug scandals. Yates has his past, just as people like Vaughters do, but I'm pretty sure he must have expressed a fairly anti-doping stance to get the job. If they had immediately binned Leinders when allegations were made, that would have just looked reactionary and not thought through. As for Barry, the team is in the same boat as BMC.

So, my question is, why does Sky stink? What is it you think they are hiding?

If I could have, say, 6 bikes, would it stop me drooling over others that I don't have?

posted by notfastenough [2951 posts]
11th October 2012 - 9:45

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notfastenough wrote:
Darthshearer wrote:
notfastenough wrote:
Darthshearer wrote:
Wonder if Wiggins will say anything about the Tour winning advice Lance gave him.......

Reading through this, Brailsford needs to come out man. Sky stink of sh!t with this dossier.

Yates - Ex Doper and ex Team mate of Lance.
Barry, Leinders.

Transparency, yeh, we can see straight through you Dave!

Well Yates I don't know, I suspect he was probably quite strongly anti-doping for DB to take him on. Leinders they're not working with any more, and as for Barry, well, do BMC smell for having George riding? Sorry, but aside from Yates, it sounds like you're looking for a conspiracy theory. But since DB is transparent, what do you think they're up to?

Update: excerpt from Barry's website:
"From 2006 until the end of my career in 2012, I chose to race for teams that took a strong stance against doping. Although I never confessed to my past, I wrote and spoke about the need for change."

Can't see how that makes Sky look bad at all, it actually implies that even from the inside, Sky's anti-doping stance is the real deal.

Yates tested positive and worked with Armstrong...........

Sky stance was not to work with anyone with a doping background.

Absolutely, and I'm not arguing that DB has made a bit of a rod for his own back with the way that has been expressed, but he has also changed that position slightly by conceding that you can't run a top-flight team with sufficiently experienced people untouched by drug scandals. Yates has his past, just as people like Vaughters do, but I'm pretty sure he must have expressed a fairly anti-doping stance to get the job. If they had immediately binned Leinders when allegations were made, that would have just looked reactionary and not thought through. As for Barry, the team is in the same boat as BMC.

So, my question is, why does Sky stink? What is it you think they are hiding?

All their possible connections with doping and their recent perfomnces all linked to a training camp in Tenerife!

How can Froome go from a half decent TT finishing in the mid 30s to suddenly p!ssing on everyone and becoming a GC contendor by just going to a few training camps in Tenerife?

There is a bit in the report with an extract from Dr. Ferrari advised the use of hypoxic chambers to reduce the effectiveness of the EPO test in detecting theuse of synthetic EPO.

Regular training at altitude (such as at St. Moritz, Tenerife or Aspen)would achieve a similar result

Coincidence?!?!?!

Yates was a bloody DS at USP, you're telling me a DS doesnt know who is or isnt doping? Barry TOLD him he was doping yet they still employed him at Sky!!!

posted by Darthshearer [141 posts]
11th October 2012 - 10:03

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I don't believe Sky are doping, but their zero tolerance policy has failed again. I am currently reading Hincapie's affidavit on the Wall Street Journal site. He talks about himself, Kevin Livingstone and a rider whose name has been redacted living in Como. This unnamed rider went on to do well at the 1996 Vuelta after using EPO.
Who lived in Como, rode for Motorola and finished in the top 10 of the 1996 Vuelta? Bobby Julich. Currently coach at Team Sky!

posted by NeilG83 [224 posts]
11th October 2012 - 10:30

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NeilG83 wrote:
I don't believe Sky are doping, but their zero tolerance policy has failed again. I am currently reading Hincapie's affidavit on the Wall Street Journal site. He talks about himself, Kevin Livingstone and a rider whose name has been redacted living in Como. This unnamed rider went on to do well at the 1996 Vuelta after using EPO.
Who lived in Como, rode for Motorola and finished in the top 10 of the 1996 Vuelta? Bobby Julich. Currently coach at Team Sky!

*bang*

Their world is falling down on them.

Froome best stay in hiding!

posted by Darthshearer [141 posts]
11th October 2012 - 10:34

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Gkam84 wrote:
I'm pretty sure Contador got a two year ban, back dated

Quote:
Alberto Contador is sanctioned with a two-year period of ineligibility starting retroactively on 25 January 2011, minus the period of the provisional suspension served in 2010-2011 (5 months and 19 days). The suspension should therefore come to an end on 5 August 2012.

http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/5649/5048/0/Media20Release20_English_2012.02.06.pdf

Yes, Contador's ban was back dated but in essence, so were the bans handed out to the USPS riders. Backdated so far in the past that they're pretty much irrelevant so they've given them additional 6 month bans too.

I don't really see how these differ from Contador, it's just that their doping happened so long ago that a standard 2 year backdated ban which the UCI seems to favour becomes a back dated disqualification and nothing more. The USADA couldn't really hand out 2 year future bands for these riders when in recent cases involviing Contador and others (Bauge?) the UCI and WADA have imposed backdated bans.

posted by drheaton [3429 posts]
11th October 2012 - 10:34

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NeilG83 wrote:
I don't believe Sky are doping, but their zero tolerance policy has failed again. I am currently reading Hincapie's affidavit on the Wall Street Journal site. He talks about himself, Kevin Livingstone and a rider whose name has been redacted living in Como. This unnamed rider went on to do well at the 1996 Vuelta after using EPO.
Who lived in Como, rode for Motorola and finished in the top 10 of the 1996 Vuelta? Bobby Julich. Currently coach at Team Sky!

Dave Brailsford has acknowledged though that the zero-tolerance policy is impossible to enforce when it comes to staff. All that he or indeed any team can do is put in place procedures to ensure that, no matter what riders/staff did in the past, they have no chance to do it again, whether they want to or not.

In that respect, he (and several other teams) have succeeded.

posted by crazy-legs [486 posts]
11th October 2012 - 10:52

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It gets worse! Leipheimer's affidavit states he attended one of Dr. Ferrari's training camps in Tenerife with riders including Vino, Kashechkin, Popopvych and MICHAEL ROGERS!

posted by NeilG83 [224 posts]
11th October 2012 - 10:54

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Leipheimer also says that he and an unnamed team mate doped at 2007 Tour de France, less certain who this could be, but possibly Contador.

posted by NeilG83 [224 posts]
11th October 2012 - 11:06

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Vande Velde says in his affidavit that there was no organised doping program at CSC when he rode for them in 2007. Riis must be relieved about that.

posted by NeilG83 [224 posts]
11th October 2012 - 11:20

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Strange that Leipheimer was given the same sentence as the others (2 years reduced to 6 months) when it was his second offense. The first was a positive after winning the 1996 US Amateur National Criterium Championship. Shouldn't he be given an 8 year sentence, which is then reduced to 2 for cooperating?

PS. http://joepapp.blogspot.nl/2010/04/levi-leipheimer-tested-positive-for.html

posted by Aapje [164 posts]
11th October 2012 - 11:56

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Yates just been on 5Live, what an embarrassing thing for himself and Sky.

He didnt see or hear of any doping with Lance.

BULL SHEET!

What about the others Yates?

George, Bertie, Levi, Popoyvch, Gusev etc.

posted by Darthshearer [141 posts]
11th October 2012 - 11:58

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NeilG83 wrote:
It gets worse! Leipheimer's affidavit states he attended one of Dr. Ferrari's training camps in Tenerife with riders including Vino, Kashechkin, Popopvych and MICHAEL ROGERS!

The Rogers bit is bad for Sky, the others I'm not surprised about.

If I could have, say, 6 bikes, would it stop me drooling over others that I don't have?

posted by notfastenough [2951 posts]
11th October 2012 - 11:58

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OMG Now Alex Dowsett is saying Lance is a legend and it doesnt matter,

PR Fail for Sky today, its class Rolling On The Floor

posted by Darthshearer [141 posts]
11th October 2012 - 12:20

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Darthshearer wrote:
OMG Now Alex Dowsett is saying Lance is a legend and it doesnt matter,

PR Fail for Sky today, its class Rolling On The Floor

Yep, just saw that on the BBC site - Dave B ain't going to be a happy man.

TBH I haven't really got behind the whole Team Sky thing but did record the series behind the scenes and they won me over a tad.

Now though, cycling is just being tainted in my eyes.

It's a double edged sword - cycling finally becoming popular - this happens! - back to square one.

Other side - cycling finally becomes popular - this happens - roads are clearer again!

posted by Super Domestique [1592 posts]
11th October 2012 - 12:25

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Darthshearer: IF doping has been reducing in the peloton over the last few seasons (e.g. cause of blood passport), then you would expect the top riders to change. You would expect that talented, clean riders would start doing much better, as their competitors who achieved their results on dope started to do worse for lack of it. IF doping still is rife, then such changes in performance may be due to a previously clean rider starting to dope.

We just can't know, unfortunately. It all depends on how effective the blood passport has been (cause direct testing for EPO is more or less futile it appears).

Re Tenerife: It's pretty obvious why riders go there to train. It's in the Atlantic at African latitudes, so even in winter the weather is mild. It's got a massive volcanic mountain in the centre of it. It's got a hotel at altitude. Basically, the place is ideal for winter training - where else in EU can you live at altitude & have incredibly long climbs to train on in winter? (The european mountains are treacherously cold, even inaccessible at that time). Cyclists have been doing winter training in Tenerife for at least decades because of this.

posted by Paul J [561 posts]
11th October 2012 - 12:38

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Darthshearer - the whole point of this release was to explain why USADA have gone down this route and release the findings.

Funny it never mentions the report was solely about Sky ? or have i missed something or am i being to hypocritical about your comments, a bit like Lance saying he never doped, you go on about Sky the same way.

Its blatantly obvious you dont like them, and have every right to state that, so i personally hope they go on to win everything and really spoil your day Devil

If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases observe it. Gaius Julius Caesar.

stumps's picture

posted by stumps [2674 posts]
11th October 2012 - 14:17

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Lance doped ... what really?

Smile

Me, Myself and I

posted by phax71 [299 posts]
11th October 2012 - 14:18

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As for Barry, Yates and Rogers et al if they didnt admit to taking gear when they were signed by Sky - how were Sky to know. Its the same as all the riders, just look at VandeVelde and Danielson with Garmin - they claim to be a squeeky clean team.

On a seperate point if you put in the riders names on Wikipedia they already have a line through or have written on void on their results Thinking

If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases observe it. Gaius Julius Caesar.

stumps's picture

posted by stumps [2674 posts]
11th October 2012 - 14:21

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posted by phax71 [299 posts]
11th October 2012 - 14:33

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Stump, I have no love for Sky because they are supported by a man who thought it was ok to phone tap peoples phones.

They are always preeching they are whiter than white, holier than thou and now they are slowly up to their necks in it.

They fire Leinders and within 24h this hits the emails, coincidence?

Go put your Sky kit on and stand around posing with your Dogma, it wont be me who has my day spoilt, ill be laughing at Dave getting egg on his face at the "Transparcency" Team Sky have.

posted by Darthshearer [141 posts]
11th October 2012 - 16:42

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Given what this will do for the public perception of pro cycling (i.e. They're all doped up to the gills). I think this will probably t-bone Sir Bradley or Wigginshire's chances of scooping SPOTY this year.

posted by Matt_S [182 posts]
11th October 2012 - 16:57

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Angry Angry Crying Crying Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry Grrrr.....

hi

posted by cool guy 999 [54 posts]
11th October 2012 - 16:58

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Darthshearer wrote:
Stump, I have no love for Sky because they are supported by a man who thought it was ok to phone tap peoples phones.

They are always preeching they are whiter than white, holier than thou and now they are slowly up to their necks in it.

They fire Leinders and within 24h this hits the emails, coincidence?

Go put your Sky kit on and stand around posing with your Dogma, it wont be me who has my day spoilt, ill be laughing at Dave getting egg on his face at the "Transparcency" Team Sky have.

Lol, dont own any Sky kit but i can afford a Dogma if i wanted one, as for phone tapping, its not a new thing invented by Murdoch you know but if your that nieve to believe it then go ahead mate. Laughing

If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases observe it. Gaius Julius Caesar.

stumps's picture

posted by stumps [2674 posts]
11th October 2012 - 19:14

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posted by Seveso [6 posts]
12th October 2012 - 11:10

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Darthshearer wrote:
Stump, I have no love for Sky because they are supported by a man who thought it was ok to phone tap peoples phones.

They are always preeching they are whiter than white, holier than thou and now they are slowly up to their necks in it.

They fire Leinders and within 24h this hits the emails, coincidence?

Go put your Sky kit on and stand around posing with your Dogma, it wont be me who has my day spoilt, ill be laughing at Dave getting egg on his face at the "Transparcency" Team Sky have.

What a weird rationale. I experienced awful service and rude staff from Etihad airways once* - do you think I should blame Manchester City FC?

Clearly the Leinders thing has been going through the wash for a while, what link are you trying to form? Just saying "Coincidence?" makes you look like a conspiracy nut. Did the CIA orchestrate 911 as well?

They might well have made a rod for their own backs with a staunch anti-doping stance, but what would you prefer?

"Well, we'll try really hard to be anti-doping, but, you know, if the lads are shooting up in the hotel rooms behind our backs then you can't blame us gov!" Yeah, I'm sure you wouldn't be having a go at them for that instead. (along with the rest of us, to be fair)

Tell you what, rather than reach for the stars, maybe they just lower their sights a bit and be more British - gallant losers and that. That'll do.

PS. I have no Sky kit or a Dogma.

*Not true, just hypothetical

If I could have, say, 6 bikes, would it stop me drooling over others that I don't have?

posted by notfastenough [2951 posts]
12th October 2012 - 14:43

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notfastenough wrote:
Darthshearer wrote:
Stump, I have no love for Sky because they are supported by a man who thought it was ok to phone tap peoples phones.

They are always preeching they are whiter than white, holier than thou and now they are slowly up to their necks in it.

They fire Leinders and within 24h this hits the emails, coincidence?

Go put your Sky kit on and stand around posing with your Dogma, it wont be me who has my day spoilt, ill be laughing at Dave getting egg on his face at the "Transparcency" Team Sky have.

What a weird rationale. I experienced awful service and rude staff from Etihad airways once* - do you think I should blame Manchester City FC?

Clearly the Leinders thing has been going through the wash for a while, what link are you trying to form? Just saying "Coincidence?" makes you look like a conspiracy nut. Did the CIA orchestrate 911 as well?

They might well have made a rod for their own backs with a staunch anti-doping stance, but what would you prefer?

"Well, we'll try really hard to be anti-doping, but, you know, if the lads are shooting up in the hotel rooms behind our backs then you can't blame us gov!" Yeah, I'm sure you wouldn't be having a go at them for that instead. (along with the rest of us, to be fair)

Tell you what, rather than reach for the stars, maybe they just lower their sights a bit and be more British - gallant losers and that. That'll do.

PS. I have no Sky kit or a Dogma.

*Not true, just hypothetical

Haha, i like to blame Man City for everything Angel

If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases observe it. Gaius Julius Caesar.

stumps's picture

posted by stumps [2674 posts]
13th October 2012 - 14:22

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