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news
Dave Brailsford faces the press, Paris, October 2012 (copyright Simon MacMichael)UCI should embed anti-doping experts within teams, says Brailsford
Sir Dave Brailsford says the UCI should pay for independent anti-doping experts to be embedded within leading teams to help prove that riders aren’t cheating.
The Team Sky principal’s comments, reported by BBC Sport, follow a weekend in which Tour de France race leader Chris Froome had urine thrown at him by a spectator who shouted out, “doper!”
Froome has had to field questions about whether he is riding clean throughout this year’s race, just as he did two years ago when he claimed the overall victory.
Speaking on the France Télévisions show Stade 2, Brailsford, who last week claimed Froome’s training data had been hacked by people trying prove he is doping, said: "It is not possible to prove a negative. I can't. But I can work with the UCI, independent experts."
He continued: "I understand people asking 'do we believe in Chris Froome?'
"How can we find a test where we say 'we are clean'? We have responsibility to be transparent.
"I would like the UCI to invest in individuals and put them into each team 24/7. That would prove we do nothing. I'm ready to do it.
"It is not fair what has been said. Chris is special. He has a special physiology. But he doesn't cheat."
Whether Brailsford’s suggestion is workable is open to question.
With 17 UCI WorldTour teams alone, it would certainly be expensive, perhaps prohibitively so for the UCI – if there were enough suitably qualified people to staff such an operation in the first place.
Moreover, with teams sometimes participating in three races concurrently and other riders elsewhere, for example on training camps, it would be impossible to keep tabs on everyone all the time.
Froome himself has pointed the finger at French ex-pros turned TV pundits Cedric Vasseur and Lauren Jalabert as helping fuel suspicions about him.
The latter’s insinuations were summarised by ITV 4 yesterday – although Jalabert wasn’t too keen to elaborate on them when pressed by Matt Rendell, as shown in this video posted to YouTube by a user named Michelle F.
Simon joined road.cc as news editor in 2009 and is now the site’s community editor, acting as a link between the team producing the content and our readers. A law and languages graduate, published translator and former retail analyst, he has reported on issues as diverse as cycling-related court cases, anti-doping investigations, the latest developments in the bike industry and the sport’s biggest races. Now back in London full-time after 15 years living in Oxford and Cambridge, he loves cycling along the Thames but misses having his former riding buddy, Elodie the miniature schnauzer, in the basket in front of him.
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62 comments
a viewpoint from Dr Hutch who as you know is widely respected
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/racing/tour-de-france/what-can-we-learn-f...
He only talks about the power data here and this is generally within normal limits for a rider
Good - we can close this discussion then and agree that the data shows great numbers, but is hardly outstanding.
it is that because it goes against the released files and what was said before about his max HR being 165
Now see it seems we agree with full data disclosure you would see a pattern over the years.
I would like to see Quintana'a history for example and Contador's before and after doping and then maybe we can learn from all of it.
The more data released the greater the ability to discuss and investigate. Pinot is the first rider we have full power profile for and that I think is fantastic and should be the model for every pro rider.
I think partial understanding is even worse, especially when combined with confirmation bias...
Quite. If you can't even get your head around the basics of heart rate then how on earth is it going to help you understand whether or not a rider is clean?
I said it raises questions, and Sky knew this.
This only strengthens my case for a full release of every rider's data so these can be tracked over time. A Power and HR profile for every rider.
Yes Froome is in the spotlight but that is because he releases partial data and yet we can see what Adam Yates, Gesnick and others did on the same ride with full data and information.
Would you not agree full data disclosure is needed from ALL riders ?
Of course different factors -
Oval rings
shielded or not
weather conditions
fatigue
etc but over a period these will even out
Would you not agree partial data is worse than none ?
Why is the HR anomalous ?
You are Dave Brailsford and I claim my £ 500.
Demanding full disclosure of a GC leaders data in isolation might not be entirely fair, don' t you think ?
I do agree, in line with what many have said.
No, I wouldn't. Team Sky got badgered for data, Brailsford said words to the effect of "i'm not releasing full, raw data - we'll maybe release a summary", they then release it and no it's "Oooooo - isn't it awful ! They only released a summary !" from everyone. It's data - if it's not useful, ignore it; if it is; analyse it - don't whinge about the amount without considering the context of it's release and the data forthcoming from the other teams.
Oh yes, and back to the point - why is the HR data anomalous ?
Max HR from 2013 just two years ago
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/24951818
Freakish Froome
Five-time Tour de France winner Miguel Indurain famously had a resting pulse of just 29 bpm, less than half that the average man, with a heart that could pump 50 litres of blood a minute (double that of the average amateur cyclist).
Froome is equally unusual. He has a maximum heart-rate of just 165 bpm - far lower than most inactive men, let alone the 200 bpm of many elite cyclists.
..and Froome reckons his MHR is currently around 170 (No citation on the BBC article). So back to the point, tell us your logical and physiological reasoning as to how todays release of data including a maximal heart rate datum is anomalous ?
Max HR decreases with age and fitness in the longer term, and in the shorter term with fatigue. A couple of weeks into a GT, max HR is going to be lower than when fresh, as is HR response to efforts.
You can't really conclude much from Chris' HR, except that he must have large heart stroke volume, and that he wasn't fresh.
From his power figures though it's clear he is able to put in the most amazing efforts, and even attacks mid-way through a huge effort. He is and must be, without a doubt, an absolute marvel of physiology. As Kimmage and Walsh have said, one of the most amazing road racing cyclists ever physically.
The question is whether he's achieved that "clean" or not (which may be a subjective thing). We may simply never know for sure. He swears he is. There's no evidence against him, other than that his performances make him competitive with other oxygen-vector doped athletes of the past. Different people take different things from that.
Let's hope for a call for open applications to be an embedded independent anti-doping expert.
yep DB has that one right and for that person to release data as needed to the public and pundits.
plenty are on twitter, some may write them off as amateurs or pseudo scientists but the only figures we have are what sky gave.
I mean they even gave us a w/kg measure when they say themselves they don't measure weight ...
Sky knew they would cause a debate and we are having it. Nearly every day these threads contain references to Froome and not started by the same old people either.
They know the approximate weight, don't be stupid.
They seem to be mostly articles that are then jumped on by people like you, or started by similar.
but do those articles by Ferrari, Vayer or Tucker are any less valid ? Are you saying they are amateurs given who all three have worked with have been at the top of their profession, Festina, Lance and SA rugby ?
I'm talking about the max HR data you took issue with today - stop changing the subject. The articles i'm referring to are the 'these threads' you mentioned, implying this website - I haven't seen any on here by any of those people today. What are you talking about ?... you have any links you wish to share or just an appeal to the wisdom of general Twitterati ?
So we have stats released today that shows his max HR is higher than thought. That means he went up Ventoux at a low % of max on attacks. This is a debate that is crucial to cycling for any rider.
Horner got heavily criticised in the Vuelta
Contador as linked in 2009 etc
Froome is not the first nor the last to put under this.
You are aware that 'maximum heart rate' and 'maximum heart rate measured on a climb' are two different things aren't you?
As above, amateur speculation, especially by cycling fans who tend not to be the brightest of people, is not helpful.
talking crap now, those commenting on this have damn slight more knowledge of it that you, I and others.
Why did Sky only release this one and very little data, why not the whole data file for the ride ?
you can not exceed your max HR regardless unless fitter. Can you really say a climb up Ventoux on the attack would produce a max HR of 15 less than this week ? Even allowing for fatigue etc is that possible ?
No - crikey is right. It might be best to understand what the figures refer to before this goes around any more. As to 'those commenting' on this - i've only heard you so far.
I've seen no end of rubbish around HR today on twitter.
Personal example, going to the pyrenees last year after 2 weeks off the bike. Day one it was 35C, I was poorly hydrated and I was climbing steadily at around threshold, talking to people with my HR sitting there at 202-203 BPM. My typical HRmax is around 210, so this was quite a shock, but it was simply to do with conditions and the amount of rest I had. At the end of that week I ascended the tourmalet around threshold and my HR sat around 190. A few hard days later I was going up Ventoux, producing the same power with my HR in the low 180s. Even sprinting right at the end of Ventoux I don't think I would have hit 190, even though 10 days before I was 20 BPM higher. This was nothing unusual and I expect if you looked at any pro cyclist who shared their HR data you would see a similar pattern - as fatigue sets in over time HRmax will decrease. Fitness and HR is not a simple relationship either.
I've not seen any serious sports scientist questioning Froome's HR data throughout this whole thing, it's all been about the power. The people who have been pointing at his HR data as 'unusual' have been the same people who point at anything they consider suspect and scream 'dope'. It's these people who are the problem, and no matter what Sky do, they're never going to be happy.
And max heart rate when cycling can be different from when running, swimming, climbing stairs, making sweet love under the stars...
"But he said amateurs analyzing power data was useless."
But the people doing this are not amateurs FFS one is Dr Ferrari, is he an amateur ?
By the way it was Sky themselves who said Froome had a very low Max HR and now it is a miracle, it is higher ... Max HR does not change that much. If you believe the leaked files to be true, and if you believe his max to be higher than 170 then he was at 85% or so of max up Ventoux on attacks, possible ?
Sky have released data and it does not make sense
the Inner Ring
@inrng
Froome on Col du Soudet to La Pierre St Martin
RPM avg 97
HR avg 158bpm, 174 max
5.78W/kg
via L'Equipe's @a_thomas_commin at Sky press conf.
The query here is max HR, I thought Froome had a very low max HR ?
The query here is max HR, I thought Froome had a very low max HR ?[/quote]
Well at a Max of 174 it's about 15 bpm lower than mine when I'm climbing a 10% grade.
I didn't realise that Road CC had so many physiologists and medics sat around looking at the data.
are you a pro cyclist in the Tour ?
As you know power = speed and the lighter you are the better up an hill. These figures first go against his own stated max HR, go against the leaked files of 2013/2014 and the special condition he had.
In cycling because we can measure all this it is about the stats, after Sky are supposed to be the best technical and monitoring squad, this is vital for any team.
Otherwise why measure it ?
are you a pro cyclist in the Tour ?
No.
Are you an expert at reviewing Physiological data?
Do you have all of the data?
Do you even know what you are talking about or do you just beleive in throwing enough shit about that some of it sticks?
Like Brailsford and others have said you can't prove a negative but with all of the amateur armchair experts on this site it does appear that you can prove someone guilty with pretty much no evidence.
Oh FFS - first "his heart rate doesn't change" scandal (which it did) now the "his heart rate is higher than the max" scandal... sheesh.
Max heart rate isn't a hard limit, no matter what it sounds like and peaks can be very brief.. Froome was talking about his max being about 170 a few days ago so 174 really doesn't ring alarm bells given the circumstances. The power profile idea is also something Brailsford has mentioned before, the last I heard was 5 days ago
That work for you ?
and just another (!) tilt on the weight thing - is it DB who is going to be doing all the weighing and monitoring of all of his riders? Is that his role? I would imagine the DS Nicolas Portal would be more likely to be checking on all that, and the people collecting the information are probably the soigneurs. So why would DB have all that at his fingertips?
DB was categorical that they do not look at weight and nor Vo2max, he is the boss FFS ....
No other team would ignore these two and yet the team of marginal gains does, amazing.
BTW this piece shows why if all data available, sensible rational analysis can be made - http://rouleur.cc/journal/performance/tour-de-france-2015-Robert-Gesink-...
come on Sky, Saxo, Astana etc what's to be worried about ?
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