Second serious cyclist crash this year at Ludgate Circus sparks demands for action

belgravedave wrote:

bikebot, seeing as your an expert on policing and your reply to my suggestion was that it would be to expensive, please tell me how much it would cost then?

I'm not an expert on policing, although years ago my flatmate was a Policeman. That gives a few insights.

It's your idea, and you're the one that proposing it as a viable alternative. Build you own case, I wasn't offering you my help. And when you have something to present, I'll use my research to challenge yours.

embattle wrote:

Also does any one know why planers seem to be creating all new junctions raised above the joining roads, the mini roundabout I was talking about above is raised so high it is the same height as the payment?

I don't know about "all", but in many cases that is done to provide better disability access. We might complain about how bad cycling infrastructure is, but ask a wheelchair user about the infrastructure problems they have and it puts it in perspective.

Perhaps of interest, I've heard a few times that the equality act may be helpful in getting rid of some of the more stupid street furniture. Lots of bollards etc that make cycling difficult also block wheelchair users.

Oh yes I've seen that before but what is odd is the mini roundabout has no actual crossings they are all well away from it.

embattle wrote:

Also does any one know why planers seem to be creating all new junctions raised above the joining roads, the mini roundabout I was talking about above is raised so high it is the same height as the payment?

I don't know about "all", but in many cases that is done to provide better disability access. We might complain about how bad cycling infrastructure is, but ask a wheelchair user about the infrastructure problems they have and it puts it in perspective.

Perhaps of interest, I've heard a few times that the equality act may be helpful in getting rid of some of the more stupid street furniture. Lots of bollards etc that make cycling difficult also block wheelchair users.

belgravedave wrote:

Bikebot, Surely we want the same thing, massive decrease in cycling accidents, increase in journeys made by bike and as little environmental damage as possible.
I think a integrated system involving spending the budget on inclusive projects mainly working on junctions and then heavily policing the areas while at the same time making changes in the law and increasing punishments would be the more successful option.
Why doesn't Boris trial a borough and see what happens? Because there's no real lobby for this as there's no massive pie to carve up.

I'm quite sure we certainly do agree about many things. However, I am supporter of segregated infrastructure in certain situations, and that includes provides routes through central London, as well improving the superhighway routes into the centre.

Saturation policing as you describe is actually incredibly expensive. If you want those routes to be safe for everyone, you'd need officers there nearly 24x7 and there are hundreds of junctions in London. The closest comparison I can think of is the coverage of underground stations after 7/7, which diverted so many Police there was actually a significant increase recorded in burglaries and thefts across the capital. You might be surprised at how few Police officers are actually active at any one hour per borough.

Infrastructure on the other hand has very low recurring costs. You spend it once, and what you build is there for the next 50 to a 100 years. My main interest is in making sure the infrastructure is only of a type that is worth building rather than the substandard nonsense we're too familiar with.

belgravedave wrote:

Bikebot, I'm not talking about the BTP, I'm talking about the Met.

So am I, traffic police are part of the Met. They have about 700 of them now, the time you were referring to 25 years, there were about 1200-1300. It's something that Jenny Jones on the London Assembly has raised a number of times regarding Police priorities.

Of course London actually fares much better than many areas of the UK, which have cut traffic police numbers even deeper than that.

Edit: just noticed I typed transport Police rather than traffic Police in the post. That was by mistake, it should have been traffic Police.

It seems strange that people are happy with driver blaming whenever one of these awful incidents occurs, but then reach for the pitchforks and flaming torches if someone questions the cyclist's actions.

No-one on here knows what chain of events led to the crash, so apportioning blame to either party is pure guesswork at this stage. It's a tragic event for all involved, which took place at a junction not designed with either bikes or tippers in mind. Lets just focus on that shall we?

This was tried in Devon & Cornwall in about 1965 (I am old). Summer season, lots of visitors, high casualty rate. 200 police traffic crews borrowed from other forces who spent time at junctions etc. Casualty rate greatly reduced. I have IAM certificate & know that most drivers do not habitually check left door mirror when turning or moving left. Some never use their door mirrors.

A similar exercise was tried in Kensington about 25 years ago. A very old school Superintendent took all uniformed officers that were in specialist departments and put them back onto the beat.
What happened? Well crime plummeted and road traffic accidents where halved. The experiment was cancelled after 10 weeks due to internal pressure from above. Would be nice to restart the experiment using some of the cash that's going to be wasted on the super highway.

belgravedave wrote:

Would be nice to restart the experiment using some of the cash that's going to be wasted on the super highway.

And of the billions that TfL spend per year, why do you want to raid the cycling budget for policing? More to the point, why should anything be taken from the public transport budget to deal with private motor vehicles.

The number of transport Police in London has almost halved in the last 25 years. No one but the Police are responsible for that, they make their own decisions on spending priorities.

I've been cycling a long time and while I hope she pulls through I'll restate what I've said before, never be down the side or just in front of a lorry at a junction just give them a wide berth.

You claim you're not trying to apportion blame but you do anyway. I think your comment could just as legitimately have been written like this:

I've been driving a long time and while I hope she pulls through I'll restate what I've said before, never overtake a cyclist on your left at a junction, just give them a wide berth.

In collisions between lorries and people on bikes, the driver is twice as likely to have blame apportioned to them as the cyclist. Stats here http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2012/12/12/that-war-on-britains...

So take my advice, don't go writing comments like yours underneath stories about crushed cyclists. You don't come across as the purveyor of worldly wisdom you think you do...

fluffy_mike wrote:

...I'll restate what I've said before, never be down the side or just in front of a lorry at a junction just give them a wide berth.

You claim you're not trying to apportion blame but you do anyway.

How am I supposed to "never be just in front of a lorry" ? No road user can control what vehicle comes up behind them and then attempts to overtake.

A good friend of mine was killed in this way, and it wasn't even at a junction. Just a lorry catching up and then squishing him. How would he have avoided this by "never being just in front" ? By teleportation? By being able to ride at 35mph?

What a stupid and incredibly offensive thing to say, quite apart from what fluffy mike says about blame apportionment.

The advice you gave at the end is one you should of heeded since the simple reality is I've not even taken a driving lesson and been cycling through built up areas of London on my way to work for 14 years, although I guess If I followed your lead I would suspect you as one of those invincible lycra and hi-viz warriors who I see ignoring lights, passing vehicles on the outside/inside, headphones in unable to hear anything behind, etc. but then like your comment that would be a silly assumption since I have no idea about you.

I already knew about the statistics regarding blame and make it quite clear that while the driver may well take the blame in such circumstance I know for sure who will pay the ultimate cost and it isn't going to be the one in a metal shell.

My own personal experience was as I cycled back through Twickenham once I was coming up behind a scaffolding lorry which although not signalling was clearly in the lane for turning left and I stopped behind it. As I waited for the green left signal to activate another young cyclist came up beside and then passed me and tried to squeeze down the left side of the lorry, the green right of way activated and thus the lorry moved forward and started to turned the corner. The cyclist was now trapped and thus as he and the lorry turned the corner he was pushed by the side of the lorry towards the kerb and fairly rapidly the cyclists wheels were rubbing against the kerb, he got lucky in the fact the lorry started to straighten out its direction and thus a gap opened up. The lorry was completely oblivious to the situation and I can tell you that the cyclist looked mighty shaken having just realised how close he was to going under that lorry.

To the person talking about if I know about some kind of magic regarding lorries coming up behind you, my reference was to about going down the side of a lorry and stopping just in front of the lorry which without the correct equipment they can't be see you very easily.

Please let me make it quite clear it is a very sad event which will hopefully turn out well for the cyclist. I just wish that all cyclists would go that extra mile to realise that a mistake by another road user could easily kill us and that being in the right in such situations isn't enough.

embattle wrote:

I've been cycling a long time and while I hope she pulls through I'll restate what I've said before, never be down the side or just in front of a lorry at a junction just give them a wide berth since besides not always paying attention they do have blind spots in various areas. I don't want people to think that I'm trying to apportion blame but simply because as a cyclist you have most to lose and it just isn't worth the time you might save.

Yet you are blaming the victim.