IPod wearing cyclists identified as new road menace - head of AA calls for action!

I used to listen to my ipod whilst cycling but found myself getting into more scrapes and near misses than I liked too.

I removed them, and my cycling became alot safer and I was more aware of what was going on around me.

I also convinced another ipod wearing cyclist to drop it, and his confidence on the road has improved no end.

So often when I ride, it is into headwind which makes so much noise that you cannot hear anything else. Also riding at a reasonable speed (20mph plus), the wind noise drowns out the sound of cars.

I would never rely on sound to dictate whether to make a manoeuvre or not, and always rely completely on my vision.

Maybe being distracted by music could be an issue, but I don't think the inability to hear traffic is the problem.

OK, so is this suggesting that listening to sound systems whilst cocooned in a motor vehicle is also a 'menace'?

If so, why wasn't it mentioned in the article?

Or is this just another example of the usual mindless prejudice and hypocrisy that makes this country a laughing stock?

Or, perhaps, the unthinking reactionary mob that makes up the bulk of so-called "middle England" are getting so frustrated because they'd can't outwardly display their prejudices against those of a different religion or skin colour so they have to turn against those who choose a different mode of transport.

What I meant to say is that it is not OK for ME to wear an iPod as I get easily distracted

It can, of course, be completely different for other people.

I think the biggest danger regarding this is pedestrians listening to their ipods and not looking as they cross out into the road. Happens to me on a daily basis in Manchester.

Or how about the School Bus Driver who I saw this morning with a cup of coffee in one hand, steering and changing gears with the other, all whilst laughing and joking with the passenger at the front.

Or the woman on Stockport Road texting as she was driving erratically up it.

Or the boy racer who had his music that loud I couldn't hear anything but the rumble of his subwoofer.

no, it isn't suggesting that - that's another argument if you want to have it. same for iPeds. two wrongs don't make a right anyway.

what it's suggesting is that if you choose to wear headphones then you're impairing your ability to judge the road because 1) music is distracting and 2) it masks other sounds you might want to hear. And i'd tend to agree, especially on the first call. DaSy's right: wind can mask sounds too. but you can't control that, and you can control your iPod.

Cyclists are always going on about how bikes are not the same as cars, and they're right. the same rules don't necessarily apply. but that rubs both ways

I do agree with Barry, cars and motorbikes are both isolated from outside noise, but they have good coverage of what is happening behind them via mirrors, so the same rules don't necessarily apply.

The problem is that you are preaching to the converted here, we are all serious enough about cycling that we frequent internet sites about it. So no doubt we cycle more and take the whole thing more seriously than many of these victims listed above. I wonder if iPod wearing is just more endemic amongst the more casual riders, and that it is in fact their inexperience that gets them into trouble rather than the iPod itself.

that's a good point Dasy, but i certainly know some serious mile munchers who commute and train all year round who are always plugged in to their iPods. I asked one of them about the noise masking effects once and he said that he just kept the thing turned down low - personally I'd find that even more distracting - good rider or not, if you can't hear what's coming up behind you you are at a disadvantage.

I suppose the counter argument is that if something is coming up behind you fast enough to do you harm, being able to hear it is unlikely to make much difference and that you should be looking behind anyway before you manouvre in to potential harm's way.

For me, experience has taught me that my hearing is impaired by many environmental issues such as speed and wind conditions, so I cannot rely on it in all circumstances, so choose to not rely on it at all. I will always check over my shoulder if swinging around a pothole, changing lanes etc.

That said, I would never ride with an iPod, as the solitude and engagement with the ride is what I crave, I don't want to be taken back to my normal life by having a backing track. I love music in the car as it makes a dull job a little bit more entertaining though.

Plus you may have some speed crazed chef silently approaching in a Tesla, so sound is not a good indicator that all is safe or otherwise.

I wouldn't ride through town with a music player but i deffo needed one in the Atacama desert

horses for courses i reckon, but the reason i took one on a big tour is precisely becasue it *is* distracting, and that's why i wouldn't use one on the commute.

I never wear my iPod while riding, it's as much to do with comfort as common sense. Sound is a useful tool in knowing what's coming but it shouldn't be relied on completely. Keeping your eyes open and looking round regularly and/or using a mirror is the best way to know what's all around you.

The problems of sound inside vehicles have been noted - drivers playing loud rock or rap music have a higher incidence of accidents and there is research on this (check the TRL website).

Motorcyclists are not protected from incoming sound by the way Dasy - dunno where you got that idea from.

for me this basically seems to boil down to, "people who are idiots are dangerous in traffic". be they texting car drivers, holier-than-thou red light jumpers and pavement riders, iPeds, whoever. The fact that they're wearing a iPod, texting, or whatever is just a symptom of the main problem: they're idiots. if they weren't doing that they'd be doing some other idiot thing. to quote Blackadder, "if we went around punishing people for being stupid, Nursie would have been in prison all her life"

My experience on a motorbike has always been with a full face helmet that has done a very good job of blocking out sound. I even find that with the thinner, less padded full face downhill MTB helmets, sounds like that is just me though....

Dasy - neither of my full face helmets (an Arai and a shoei) do much to block out sound. The MX helmet i have for BMX riding and occasional use on the motorbike has practically no sound damping effect at all. I have to wear earplugs for longer journeys when I know I'll be going over 60mph and this is recommended. I don't like having them in as it's uncomfortable and I notice that it doesn't help balance (inner ear pressures maybe), as well as reducing awareness.

i think you've hit the nail right on the head there!! If the driver/cyclist/pedestrian has no spatial awareness anyway and doesn't keep an eye on things going on around them then wearing an iPod is going to make little difference. I've worn an iPod for years while training and wear it every day on my 35 mile commute and never once been caught out because of not hearing traffic. If you keep an eye on what is going on around you it doesn't matter if you can hear or not.

Oldridgeback - this all sounds like the reason I don't rely on sound, I think I'm impaired!

With a full face lid on, all I can hear is my breathing, which sends me insane...

(to Stuke) Hear hear. It's not that they're used, but how they're used. It's too simple to simply say "ipods are bad, mkay". There are bad users and there are good users. Why should the good users be punished because of the bad ones? ... and there are plenty of "care and attention" laws already to punish the bad users without resorting to an outright ban.

There's not enough info out there it seems to make an informed judgment, as mentioned in the article, so I'd only vote if there was a don't know option.

However, instinctively, it feels wrong to me. I use my hearing when out training all the time, to gauge the distance, direction, speed, acceleration and type of vehicles that are out of my field of view.

I feel my ability to determine these things as a result of being a cyclist for a very long time gives me a safety advantage. When I lose this ability (e.g. high winds) I do feel I have less control over my situation, and that I am at more risk.

CTC's comment about deaf people being encouraged to cycle, therefore why not iPod users, is absurd logic, bordering on the dangerous. We all I am sure would encourage those with a mobility problem to cross the road, but why would you encourage someone who is able-bodied to voluntarily put themselves in a dangerous environment without all their faculties available to them?

I wouldn't for a moment discourage the deaf from cycling, but they have no choice with their hearing, and I am sure as a result take extra care (as they have to in other traffic situations), knowing they face a little more risk than a hearing person.

If the CTC think there is no issue with iPods they should come up with something facts-based to prove they are safe, not jump defensively to defend a cycling issue for the sake of it, without any serious facts at their disposal. I'd rather see the CTC putting out a holding position, and doing something to find out whether it is dangerous, like commissioning an independent study.

That said, I've been meaning to actually try cycling with an iPod myself, as an experiment, as I fancy the idea of cycling with music, and I was going to see if I felt any less safe when doing so. Provided you can still hear traffic (iPod at reasonable volume), can I still detect vehicles in the same way? The only thing that has stopped me, is a dodgy iPod, preventing me from getting my music onto the damn thing!

Of course there are other more important issues, there always are. Of course car drivers listen to music too, but they have mirrors, crumple zones and air bags, and I'd say they would also use their hearing a little (to a lesser extent than cyclists) - I do when driving. Of course you cannot rely 100% on sound to make decisions, but I'd personally rather have more info regarding what is going on around me than less, so I'll only use one if I can still use my hearing as I do now.

being a music snob (as well as a bike snob), means i would never sully a bike ride with music that i couldn't fully concentrate on..

One ear is okay!

yeah if you listen to a mono recording and yer stuck in the 50's

Regarding deaf people - they're used to not being able to hear and used to looking round to see what's coming.

Dasy - my hearing's not been the same since I saw Motorhead and Tenpole Tudor (remember them?) in the same week, errr, a long time ago. My left ear suffered badly and I rely on the right - another reason I wouldn't wear an iPod while riding one of my bicycles or my motorbike. One of the guys in the BMX club wears his iPod on the track but then you're not looking over your shoulder there - still think he's nuts though.

try listening to Lenny Kravitz through one ear and one entire guitar will be missing

over the hill with the swords of a thousand men! i remember that track being on the kick up the eighties retrospective thing that i videoed in 1989 and watched about 100 times until the tape broke

I remember seeing (well sort of) Motorhead at the alternative aid gig in Camden Lock at the same time as the Live Aid thingy was going on, '85 suppose.

I was really steaming, as was my way in those days, and passed out near a speaker throughout Motorhead and woke up around the time The Toydolls were playing, that may account for my dubious hearing.

I saw Tenpole Tudor a few times too. The best gig of theirs I was at was in Feltham Football club, they played rural punk, and had a group of about 30 skinheads square dancing, I was one of them.

Anti-Nowhere League in the 100 club was another hearing impairment suspect.

Anti-Nowhere League at the 100 Club, DaSy? Wow, we could well have been in the same room at the same time. I did some casual work there back in the day, remember talking to Animal and the rest before a gig, very different, um, animal to the on-stage persona.

They seemed to get third support slot at The Lyceum all the time, possibly connected to the fact that the promoter of the Sunday night punk gigs there was also their manager, I think.

And yes before you ask, I've been to Brighton, I've been to Hastings, I've been to Eastbourne, too. So what?

so what, so what, you boring little....!

The snowman will also make you happy, he's gonna err..you know what he's going to do.

That's cool Simon, I was often up there or Brixton Fridge (saw Clash there back in the day}, which was an experience for a skinhead in the '80's. Feltham Footbal Club was a great venue though, it was really small, so bands like UK Subs, Blitz, Toydolls, Peter and the Test Tube Babies The Business, etc were really going for it, as the crowd was right there with them.

Killing Joke at the Top Rank in Reading was amazing too, we all had to leave our boots outside the front door, and when a stage invasion got past the bouncers, Wizard, this crazy fire breathing dude blasted us with a big gob full of flames, we soon legged it.

Wow, this is bringing back some memories...

Killing Joke - saw them in Edinburgh in the 80s - wild concert. A big mob of skinheads turned up, not sure why, and there was a huge fight between them and the bouncers. The band played on throughout - you could've cut the atmosphere with a knife, intense.
As for the Brixton Fridge, it's very different these days.
Eddie Tenpole is apparently related to the Tudor family (Henry VIII and Elizabeth the 1st), hence the name.

I had a biker jacket lovingly painted with names of my favourite bands on it, one of which was Chelsea.

Didn't think through the implications of that one the night I decided to wear it on the North Bank Highbury for an Arsenal match...

The CTC "defends" the use of ipods whilst cycling on the basis that "deaf people are being encouraged to cycle". Sorry but that is a false logic. Yes, of course, encourage deaf people to cycle BUT that does not follow that hearing-able cyclists should block that sense.

You might get away with it in the countryside but in towns it is useful to be able to hear oncoming police cars before you can see the blue lights flashing. This is undoubtedly an advantage in addition to many other situations.

I have a friend who used to cycle listening to his ipod until he had a serious accident in which he broke his right arm very badly and required orthopaedic surgery in addition to a nasty cut on his forehead. Would he still have had the accident if he had not been wearing earphones? I don't know but he regrets wearing the ipod whilst cycling.

I would urge all brother and sister cyclists to keep the ipod for other occasions. The risk is truly not worth it just to listen to a bit of music. In any case, I never actually thought that cycling was boring?!!

I don't think ipods compare with being deaf. Deaf people are aware of how to take precautions in the hearing world. A hearing person to suddenly lose this sense will not cope like other deaf people for a considerable time. Perhaps, a hearing person suddenly gone deaf is the only fair comparison to ipod users and deaf people.

It is fair to say that if you want to be safe cycling you should keep your mind on the road, which I'm sure a deaf person can do. Listening to music while cycling is not about the loss of a sense but about distraction. What is the point of having music playing if you are not aware of it? If you are aware of it, then you are distracted. That is what causes motorist using mobile phones (even hands-free) to have accidents. It is not that they are deafened by the conversation, they are distracted by it.

Once again it is a case of common sense being required. If you are one that is easily distracted / poor concentration etc., then it is a bad idea. Personally I often wear one, BUT and it is a big BUT, I play it at a volume level in the street where I can hear the traffic as well. If I am on cycle paths etc.. I may play it louder.
I do not get lost in my music and concentrate on what is happening on the road and not what is getting piped into my head.
I find cars with loud stereos potentially more dangerous as not only does the driver not hear anything, but they often distract for a brief second others around them (even that brief distraction can be serious).

For me, it just doesn't work. Tried it after seeing so many other cyclists wearing earphones (usually sporting aero-bars too...), but I'm not comfortable with that lack of 'aural' awareness. And to be honest I'm probably quite lucky in that I get to spend an hour a day in relative peace on my commute!

That is the point though; its an individual thing, works for some of us, if not others.

I maintain that accidents involving cyclists are almost always due to lack of attention/consideration on the drivers part.

Cyclists are often the victims rather than the perpetrators of accidents, or that's been my experience anyway. But keeping all your sense tuned to what's around you can give you a split second to react. The oaf in the Mercedes Sprinter who pulled a left turn in front of me the other week didn't surprise me when he did so. I heard him accelerate fast and from the way he was speeding up to overtake I knew he was an aggressive driver, which put me on my guard. When he braked right in front and cut left, I was on the brakes as he did so. If I'd been wearing my iPod, would I have heard him or would I have been late on the brakes and slammed into his side?

Whether you do or you don't...the biggest issue for me is STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO. For goodness sakes, I am an adult and perfectly capable of making my own decisions, I am sick to the back teeth of busy bodies making 'executive' decisions on the part of the majority. The AA should look at spending time investigation why their service is so crap and why it now takes over 2 hours for them to attend a call. HUMPH!

I wouldn't wear 'phones to cycle, i'd definitely feel more at risk with one of my senses missing. Have tried it once or twice, but it was very alien to me, and I had to have the music up incredibly loud to be able to hear over the noise of wind and traffic....which obviously completely takes away my ability to hear anything!

I also remember nearly coming to blows with someone on a cycle track who was pootling along and veerging from side to side. I politely rang my bell, no response, rang again and again before spying the tell tale white cabling running up to their hat (no helmet!). Ended up having to get dangerously close and tap him, which must have annoyed him, as after he got over the shock he started f'ing and blinding.... I gave a few choice comments back, but can only assume they were wasted having his earphones in!

What, like all those adults who, for instance, decide to use a mobile while driving, speed, jump red lights, pass too close (and then cut you up!).......well, the list just goes on and on doesn't it? Funny, I thought laws were enacted "on the part of the majority". Of course, if everybody had the same idea of what manifests as common sense + the willingness to actually act in a common sense way we wouldn't need laws, would we? Not that I'm advocating legislating against headphone wearing cyclists; not given the current anecdotal evidence, at least.

But, talking of anecdotal evidence......

I tried using earphones while cycling and quickly came to the decision that it is far too dangerous to even consider. I found that I had to turn the damn things up so loud to overcome the rushing noise of the wind (which was accentuated by the particular buds I was using) that there was little chance of hearing approaching traffic. As I cycle in the commuter-hell-on-earth that is London I feel that I must have all senses at my disposal in order to ensure my best chances of survival! I need that extra auditory input so that I can, for instance, hear the unmistakable sound of the diesel engined black cab approaching from behind and assume an attitude of extra vigilance until the potential danger has passed.

I see that there is a minority of comments in this thread by people who consider that their cycling ability is unaffected by the wearing of heaphones. Frankly, until I see some convincing research (similar to that carried out on mobile phone wielding motorists) I'm yet to be convinced of the rigour of their assertions. For instance, ask any motorist who uses a mobile when driving and I'm sure that they will all swear that their driving is unaffected. The experiences of other road users, however, and the scientific evidence have made it clear that this is not the case.

I look forward to the publishing of a relevant research paper but, given the current economic climate and corresponding lack of research grants, I'm not holding my breath.......

badbunny - feel free to use an iPod if you want. Unlike driving/riding under the influence of drink or drugs or using a mobile phone while driving, it's not an offence. But plenty of people will say, "I told you so..." if, heaven forbid, you're the victim of an oaf in a van like the bloke in the Mercedes I encountered.

Riding in town is like playing Russian roulette. You can reduce the odds in your favour by minimising the risks.

The perfect quote.

i really don't see the point - like TiNuts said, you have to crank the volume up so high to beat the wind that it makes your ears hurt. and it's always raining, which is no good for your earphones anyway

i ride wearing just the left earphone as 99% of traffic i deal with will be on my right-hand side.

i also generally listen to spoken word recordings (i study Japanese whilst cycling) which has far more empty silences in it than music.

i feel safe whilst riding like this. personally i wouldn't ride wearing both earphones. i just wouldn't feel as safe.

i take my hat off to you sir, learning japanese whilst cycling.. i couldnt even get past third year french when i went to school. but i can ride a bike!

Jobysp- feel free to use my quote if you like, just as long as you attribute it to me!

Listening to podcasts of spoken words and not music is, I feel, safe. there is no back ground base music or drums or any other rhythm and as a consequence of this there are more quiet periods. I listen to podcasts all the time when cycling and can here cars and other vehicles quite clearly

The idea of cyclists being regarded as scofflaws for listening to music is absurd. An experienced cyclist, with a headphones set at a moderate level, can time overtakign cars by sound. Drivers in their automobiles cannot hear a damn thing even with their radios off. How many cars are sold with quiet soundproofed cabins that keep out road noise as a selling point? And with the stereo on the driver is even more deaf to the road. If they are going to try and outlaw bicyclists listenign to music than they should pull the radio out of every stupid car they can find. They wouldn't dare make it illegal for drivers, but of course they go after cyclists. Geniuses, government is.

A sensible thing is for cyclists and drivers to be required to be aware of their surroundings. I cycle with headphones typically unless I am riding in a tight group of other riders, such as on a Sunday morning. While riding on my own it's more normal than not for me to be listenign to music. I have never had a crash from this, but I have had crashes from cars cutting me off, turning across my path, and one nincompoop who broke a bottle on my head.

I would urge that if the law is not going to be applied equally to the driver than how can it target cyclists? And please no nonsense about the cyclist listening to music has headphones by his ears and the driver's speakers are not near his ears. The soundproofed cabin, sealed windows and otherwise enclosure of the automobile more than makes up for this difference, especially considerign the experienced cyclist's general level of awareness compared to the texting or sandwich-eating driver.