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Suggestions/requests for the 2014 season
Autumn is here, the Vuelta has started and we're beginning to think about the World Championships. That means that it's the traditional time for me to open up a 'suggestion' and 'request' thread where you can outline how you'd like the game to change for next season and what you think has worked particularly well this year.
Despite the fact that I'm now involved in a small way with running the game (namely, updating start lists and results) as in previous years this is very much unofficial and just a place for everyone to get together and bounce some ideas around. Nothing may come of them but Dave has always been great at incorporating good ideas from the community where possible.
For reference, you can find the 2012 and 2013 threads here:
"Suggestions for the 2013 season"
So, what do you think has worked well this year and what would you like to see change?
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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124 comments
I think it's a common complaint that the calendar can get a little crowded but unfortunately that's a reflection of the actual race calendar. With major races like the Dauphine and Tour de Suisse happening at the same time it's hard for the fantasy game to be spread out without missing genuinely big races.
What has been discussed by a few of us is ways of trying to stop people feeling like they have to play every race. The overall table is something that everyone looks at and it means that you feel you need to be competing at your strongest in every race to maintain your position. With all the extra races I don't think that's something which is actually beneficial for the game.
Each race is it's own competition and if I could I'd remove the overall table entirely. Either that or replace it with a system that means you can miss a few races and not necessarily suffer. Perhaps a 'world tour' style points system where an overall placing in the top 200 (or whatever) earns you some points and those go towards your 'ranking' as well as some stage points/badge points or something similar. That would mean that there would be no difference between finishing in 201st and 5001st and you'd be able to just pick and choose your races.
For anyone who's in the 'Forum Scorum' league where ray silvester posts winners of each race within the league in a single thread I think that is more fun than an overall table. Having a record of winners is great.
I agree that points for lanterne rouge can just come down to luck but in some cases there are patterns and having those points there gives those you can spot the patterns a chance to earn some points. It's also a risk keeping a sprinter in your team in the mountains in case they get lanterne rouge so while it's luck it's also something to think about when picking your team.
Probably wouldn't agree on increasing team mate points or abolishing young rider points (what's your reasoning for wanting to get rid of those points by the way?) because I like the points as they are. The points basis is fairly simple but because there are little amounts of points available for different things these add layers of complexity to the game and this all feeds into the tactics of picking a team. If you have the choice between two people and one might earn young rider points it adds another consideration and I like that.
Regarding the classics and transfers, I agree that every year it gets messy with people not understanding how transfers work and what purists can/can't do between races. Something needs to be done but I'm not sure giving unlimited transfers is that. Unlimited transfers has it's benefits, namely simplicity and consistency but it takes away alot of the challenge of the main game by allowing you to pick a whole new team for each race. I like that you need to weigh up the choice between picking a specialist for one race or picking someone likely to race three in a row etc. That being said, I think unlimited transfers may be the way to go.
Another option may be to change the way the races are grouped. Smaller groupings of more similar races might make it easier to pick a team across races whilst keeping the feeling that the classics are one long story rather than lots of little races. For me, watching the classics this year, for the first time I've started to see how the classics are not so much half a dozen separate races but more similar to a short stage race with three for four rest days between stages.
Not all races have a young rider jersey anyway. My reason for getting rid of it is just because it is often double counting, with riders getting points for GC and YR. So it is more beneficial to pick a good young rider than a good GC rider. I like the game to mirror cycling as much as possible, so you just pick the best riders for the stage or race. Like wise with last man home, which DS gives their man a big pat on the back for being last. Same argument for increasing points for team mates. The biggest skill in the game is picking the stage winner, so you get extra points by picking someone from his team. Plus cyling is a team game.
However more than happy if nothing changes. It is still great fun even if it becomes a research exercise at he start of the season in some races working who is still under 25 and picking Boeckmans because he likes finishing last.
Maybe I was just upset that Barry Markus picked up 10 points yesterday for being rubbish, when I was closing down on top spot.
I agree that the purist comp is an important part of the game for me and I enjoy it just as much as the 'main' game.
Personally I'd like to see it made more of, especially now that every premium account has a purist team accessible automatically. Whether its through making it higher profile through bigger prizes or by just increasing uptake by making it more enjoyable (a set of purist specific badges for example) I'd just like to see more people playing purist and enjoying the unique challenge it offers.
Not a fan of the captain idea, would just encourage people towards those big hitters even more than we currently do. Plus I like the game because the concept is simple. Let's not get adding too many bells and whistles! In terms of race numbers, I play purist for the very reason that I like less rather than more races. Whatever you do, please don't phase out purist!
I think if you're going to deviate from 9 riders per fantasy team, it should be based on the number of riders starting the race, as opposed to the number of riders per team. EG If a race has 25 teams of 6, I'd want to be able to pick more than 6 riders for my fantasy team from a startlist of 150. But actually I'd rather it stayed at 9 - I think I'd enjoy the game less if options were limited.
I suspect that it'd take some serious programming because everything has been set up around 9 riders however budget wise I'd think just reducing the budget by 10 or 15 credits for each rider lost might work?
So, for 8 guys you may have a budget of 135 or 140 credits, for 6 guys you'd have something between 105 and 120 credits.
I believe that the 150 credits cap is relatively flexible and could in theory vary by race but Dave'd have to confirm that.
one thing that's pretty much definite for next season is that each race will have its own budget. so you'll get more cash for the bigger races
Sweet!
I like what Dave said. I think the cheapening of rider prices post tour has given some of the pre vuelta races an embarrassment of choices. So a good option is to maybe go back to previous pricing but give 170-180 credits or something for GT races.
Going back to the captain idea, I quite like that precisely because it could help shake up the ' immovable' leader board. But how about, in standard, you can change your captain everyday? ( no transfer cost but has to be one of your 9). Also, double points for stage only, not for gc/points/mountain/youth jerseys. Otherwise it's way too predictable. Do you go for cav, griepel or kittel on the champs? Just gives it a bit more buzz in those situations.
For purist, one captain for whole comp I guess.
I'm with you stumps
Going back to premium/non-premium argument, I'm happy with parting with 10 quid, I consider it a bargain with respect to time spent on the game! But I think it's important to keep a free version to have the widest audience possible, and importantly, the non premium league tables should have an equal footing. Sorry to say but I'm with Enrique on one thing: same transfer rules should apply, either you only carry 2 over, or unlimited building up, for both premium and non-premium. Otherwise you're not comparing like for like, which is a shame.
I find the calendar pretty full already, and found the classics a bit of a mare to manage! But happy to see women's races, but perhaps at the expense of other races/during a lull in calendar.
Lastly, thanks to all you guys who run/manage the game, I've really enjoyed playing it, especially thanks to the layers of complexity/pro-active management of it! It has helped me hugely in understanding pro-cycling races better, which was pretty much why I joined!
Thanks
J-m
It would work but then we have to start changing the 150 credits for each race that there are different numbers of riders.
Dont know if its possible on the computer programme the lads use to run the game ?????
Its a good idea though.
I have a question. It appears that some races are reducing team sizes to 5,6 or 8 riders and it's clearly something that the UCI are keen to experiment with.
What does everyone think about changing the number of riders in a team depending on the race? If the TdF or Giro drops to 8 riders per team should we?
Just thought I'd put that out there
TER - no problem mate.
Stumps, i wasn't dismissing it, i was just purely saying that as it obviously is going to be debated, and the points raised by DrH are the the same as what I would of raised. Equally Dave and many others may see it from your point and thus it be a change that should be added
As i said its just a thought, in fantasy footie you can change your cpt each week. If, and its a BIG if, it was considered the points brought up by DrH would have to be discussed and agreed before anything was done.
The way i initally mentioned it was to keep him the same throughout the race whether its a GT or a classic, but its all open to debate. Personally from what i've read its a non starter but you cant blame a guy for trying
I have pretty much the same views as Drheaton on the captain idea
I'm personally unsure on the Captain idea.
The way it was initially phrased is that you pick a captain and he's fixed within your team for the entire race. That's an interesting concept because, as much as double points for Froome would have been great during the Tour would you really have wanted to keep him in your team throughout the race? Would those 40 credits have been put to better use by being able to bring in sprinters for the flat stages? Would double points for a GC/climber be worth what you're losing on the flat stages by having credits locked up in someone who won't score? That poses an interesting tactical dilemma.
On the other hand, just nominating one rider to get double points for a stage wouldn't, for me, make much difference. Most people would pick an obvious choice and if you went for a risky rider then you're screwed even more than now if it doesn't pay off. It also puts us into the realms of one rider being worth nearly 200 points if he's your captain and gets in a high scoring/stage winning break. I don't like the idea of one rider being able to score that highly, it adds too big a random element to the scoring for my tastes.
Then again, if everyone else likes the captain idea I'm sure I'll learn to live with it
The captain idea was just a floater for people to express their thoughts. Yes picking Sagan for the last usa race was a dead cert however there are other races where the outcome is not set in stone and as DrH said a 100 point lead cant usually be caught but pick the right captain and you can close that down quite quickly.
Anyway it was just a thought thats all.
As for more races then its a big no from me, there are already a lot of races and to fit more in then you will have to drop some of the lesser ones which tends to defeat the purpose.
Agree with the comments from drheaton about the need for consistency in races and selection times, especially in the spring races.
I'm not particularly keen to see more races, men or women. I think there are possibly a few too many already. The key to what races to include is whether they will have previews and team/rider information on the various news sites and rider info lists, so that should be obvious from previous seasons.
On the pricing yes it was difficult in the Tour but it is the same for everyone.
Liked the transfers carry over and accumulation. But would like to have a rider crash or injury withdrawal as an extra pick.
Badges - mildly amusing but not a key feature for me.
However I would still like to see more variability in pricing based on supply and demand.
If you take the gamble and put a low-cost dark horse in your team who does well then you should get the payoff by being able to sell him at a profit a few days later when everyone else starts picking him.
The surplus is banked to your overall budget. Equally if you jump on the bandwagon or stick to safe, percentage picks then you risk buying high and selling low if your rider doesn't perform as expected.
It could operate within windows to avoid a disadvantage to people who come to the game just for the Tour, for example.
This sounds very much like the system in place two or three years ago where riders values varied based on popularity and form.
It was a fun system but had a few problems. The main one was that it effectively meant that whoever did well in the first few days already had a two or three credit advantage over most other players giving them a near insurmountable advantage.
I know that in the current system it's near impossible to catch someone 100 points ahead of you unless they mess up but also giving that person a budget advantage would make it totally impossible.
I like the current system where rider values vary with form but are fixed for each competition. That means a rider like Quintana is priced according to his form and ability rather than being a fixed price from the start of the year. I think the current system is a good compromise.
I really like it as it is - the values can be a bit haphazard as previously discussed but loads of suggestions have been made on previous threads (mine included) and don't need revisiting. I reckon with the values, we should trust you guys to decide how to alter things (if at all) and just play the game accordingly.
Badges are fun - it would be nice if we could see at-a-glance what the highest number was for each badge (eg if I have 10 "high roller" badges and I click on that, it would tell me that the most anyone has is, say, 27 - so I can see how good or otherwise my total is). Or I guess I could just look at Wig_Billy's profile!
Agree with Ghedebrav, never been keen on the "captain" idea for fantasy games.
A small number of women's races would be good, as long as you can be sure of being able to get all the relevant info in time. Personally I wouldn't want to see many more races though - I'd like the option to go for a high overall placing by playing every race (as I have this year) without having to commit even more time to it! Adding more races could push more people to start only playing selective races, which might backfire longer-term. Or it might not! I'd just be wary of it, thats all.
No other suggestions - its a great game, well-designed website and committed volunteers helping to run it. Got to be happy with that.
Yea I like the idea of a leaderboard for each badge, that way it gives you an incentive to move up those as well.
Possibly a badge for top 5/6 riders in a stage, like Wig_Billy had the other day, double podium.
Here is some previous discussion on badges
http://road.cc/content/forum/83457-achievements-understanding
Personally I really like the 'Bookend' badge idea.
In terms of south american races, I think the one that stands out is the Tour de San Luis which runs alongside TDU, and attracts some really big names
Again Langkawai would be the obvious one
The only problem with both of these is the extra riders teams that would need adding
I've really enjoyed the game so far (playing premium). Slight downers were the aforementioned squad-pickin' difficulty in the TdF (though it's made Murilo Fischer a damned site more famous than he would otherwise have been) and the odd bit of deadline confusion.
As to the calendar, I'm happy to see flexibility on what's in/out, though I've generally enjoyed everything (And it was great to have the Strade Bianchi and Roma Maxima in there, two races I would've missed otherwise) - the scheduling and race choice has been pretty much spot on. If it were up to me, I'd like to see a race from Africa or South America, or even something like Langkawi - but I'm probably in a minority there.
WHAT ABOUT ACTUAL SUGGESTIONS THEN?
1. Another row of badges would be cool. 20k, zero points on a stage, TT stage win etc. and maybe one ridiculously hard-to-achieve one (like having all nine riders finish top ten). Maybe a Rule #5 badge for when two or more of your riders abandon a stage?
2. As mentioned elsewhere, a women's race, an African race and a South American race would all be great.
3. Can I make a vote *against* the captain idea? For example, in the US Pro challenge recently, everyone would've just made Peter Sagan captain and scored ridiculous amounts of points. But really, I've never liked the idea in Fantasy Football either.
4. That's it. The mechanics of the game are great and work very well, and frankly I wouldn't change them at all.
Being a new player since the Giro, I've found the game dynamic to work really well, the inclusion of the badges is a nice touch and gives people something to aim for, but can see that once you've got them they lose their novelty a bit. So would really like some more badges to aim for, possibly some Grand Tour specific ones.
Also like the idea of linking badges with jerseys. Being a budget cyclist I'm always desperate for freebies!
Don't think a double point captain would work. Or rather like not having captain picks dictate league position, as it so often does with the football.
Overall really love this game, much better than fantasy football.
Agree to a degree with Gkam on the number of races, my take is that its should be the WT races + Tour of Britain, the two American races, a couple of the early races where is a big gap (tour of med, tour of algarve) + a couple of the bigger 2nd tier classics.
As for the rest, more badges would be good to keep interest throughout the year.
In the main I think it has worked pretty well, and after the classics blip has been pretty much smooth sailing
Only one change from me, a captain scenario like fantasy footie.
Pick your captain for the start of a race and you keep him throughout and he scores double points for you in each stage whether its a one dayer or a stage race.
All in all i've enjoyed this season a lot even though i haven't done to well.
The game is great. Two requests, one big, one small.
1. Mobile app. You know it makes sense!
2. Big warning if you are playing purist and are making transfers in the middle of the spring classics and get confused about the unlimited transfer windows. Almost lost my purist status!
I have to say that the pricing in Vuelta made picking a team harder and more enjoyable as a result of having more choice.
Its in the works, I'm still working on a format before putting it to Dave and the Road.cc team, because it may cost a little to put together
Agreed, some women's races would be good. Regarding non-world tour races I'm not sure, I really enjoyed some of the early ones like the Tour de Med and Tour of the Algarve, just a case of getting the right balance.
There are plenty of big gaps in the world tour calendar and plenty of big non-world tour races there to fill those gaps, just a case of using the right races at the right time.
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