Price inflation

drheaton wrote:

I don't like the ideas of having a 'protected' rider in your team or a team captain, either of which would get double points and not be transferred.

Apart from the fact that it over complicates things I think that if this rider is outside of your budget and a fixed item in your team then as soon as one of the major contenders crashes everyone will be up in arms that they can't transfer them. There are two types of play in the game, transferring and purist. Forcing a standard, transferring, player to not transfer one person is mixing it all up for no real clear benefit.

Likewise people want more cheap riders for more team variety. What benefit is there to every team having Sagan or Froome as their protected rider?

Finally, if you have to keep one rider in your team for all stages then you're effectively handicapped on the stages where that rider doesn't feature. If you picked Froome as your leader then you have to have him in your team on the flat or medium stages where he won't feature much.

I can see your point about people being up in arms about not being able to transfer out a DNF although maybe that could be solved by allowing a transfer if a withdrawl happened. Yes that would increase the complication a little but I disagree with your other arguments. I did not suggest double points for a team leader, and do not see that as in any way necessary. I am not looking for more cheap riders, just the option of having some choice. I am not being greedy, my team has only picked one 40 pointer on less than half the stages, and I must be typical.

There is a clear benefit of having 150 points to divide between eight riders knowing you have your "banker". It means you should be able to afford more riders in the 5/20 range rather than the 3/10 range. Or choose another big name, it would be a judgement call.

As for the handicapped statement, that does not hold water with me as I have been handicapped in every stage by having picked a couple of 3.0 riders who I could not afford to transfer out. It's not even been worth taking a 10 point penalty because at times there has literally been no other option. on the basis of this TDF I have been playing effectively with 6 or 7 riders every stage and sometimes as few as 4. You might as well make it a game of 6 choices and save the time spent pointlessly looking to see if you could regig the team.

Finally that is the whole point of bringing a little bit of purist play into the standard game as you HAVE to make a judgement call, to pick a GC guy, an all rounder, a sprinter, or a guy for the breaks.

It's just an idea that I thought Could work, please do not dismiss it just because enrique might have seemed to like it. Probably it would be easier just to raise the points available back to 175 to have the same effect.

I am not suggesting something because I want to pick more cheap riders, I am suggesting ideas so that I have the option of picking riders and not writing off 1/2/3 or more of my team every stage.

PS

I love the game, and would be perfectly happy if it didn't change at all!

Now I'm off to watch La Classica on Jaizkibel (have you seen the startlist it's like a whos who of the tour without Froomedog and Bertie(for obvious reasons)). Then I am going to try the Tourmelet for the first time ever, wish me luck as last time I looked it had been washed away.

Back in September

Nice August everyone!

chrisdstripes wrote:

... I wonder what impact it would have if the algorithm used to calculate rider values did NOT account for points scored from Intermediate sprints, KOM or combativity?...

Or (!) the teammate bonus! For example, Albert Timmer's only points in the Tour came from teammate bonuses, maybe if those get factored out of the evaluation he might have been a nice 3.0 rider to have (!)

And hoping to bring more clearly into focus the need to establish a structure within (!) a team for the Tour, I'd like to point out Sky, where Boassen Hagen at 31.7 racked up 132 points before he had to abandon and where Geraint Thomas at 24.4, though some may argue it was because he was hurt, only racked up 15 points all in teammate bonuses...

I honestly don't know how other Sky riders did, but I believe that, except for Richie Porte, most were obviously dedicated to the mission at hand, and only Boassen Hagen and Porte actively tried to race, so, in this case, whatever they had done in previous races for themselves was not necessarily expected from them at the Tour...

In that respect, maybe the Sky riders, specifically those whose values appear below, might have been able to have been offered at lower values:

Ian Stannard Sky 11.0
Kanstantin Siutsou Sky 12.2
Geraint Thomas Sky 24.4
David Lopez Garcia Sky 15.6
Vasil Kiryienka Sky 17.0
Peter Kennaugh Sky 10.1

Since for the most part all they got were 5 point teammate bonuses. Maybe they should have all been at the 3.0 to 5.o level, just for the Tour. That's what I maen that each team should be able to have at least one, or maybe more (!) than one rider at 3.0 or near.

Of course, this is all hindisght(!)...

So perfectly valuating a rider from what they've done in the past 12 months should maybe not (!) be the ultimate measurement of a rider's value in the game for the Tour...

It's a different animal and team structure and intentions, should, in my mind, play a part in the valuation for the riders for the Tour, and that will take some meddling by the game managers and not just relying on a formula to give us a value... I say all this without wanting to criticize anyone... I just think the balance we week needs aliitle human input to make it more balanced and fun... I'm not trying to convince anyone who honestly believes the game is ok as it is, I won't argue that, I just believ it need some more tinkering, if only for the Tour...

And, yeah, then there's the Combativity prize...

I can only imagine that scores are input into the system in their 'raw' form, just input whatever the rider got into the equation without any weight attached to how those points were obtained, so, if that's true, it would probably be a headache to sort all those points out

But I'll be glad to submit just (!) Finish Line points for a slew of races throughout the season if anybody wants me to! Even the ones that aren't in the game!

stevemarks wrote:

I love the game, and would be perfectly happy if it didn't change at all!

It is (!) the best out there...

stevemarks wrote:

Now I'm off to watch La Classica on Jaizkibel...

Loved all your post. All of it.

stevemarks wrote:

I have been playing effectively with 6 or 7 riders every stage and sometimes as few as 4. You might as well make it a game of 6 choices and save the time spent pointlessly looking to see if you could regig the team.

Wow. Perfectly put.

enrique wrote:

I played the NBC Fantasy Cycling Challenge again this year. Nowhere near as fun as this site, but (!) I almost have to (!) play since there's a whole host load of people and a ton of friends that play and it's become an annual ritual to see if anyone can win one of their Daily prizes. I never win, but that's beside the point.

It's also become a huge scenario where you can display your 'bragging rights' as the guy who knows the most about cycling! And you know cycling is huge in New York :).

The one great thing about this game, the Roadcc game, apart from the sleek design, the beautiful colors, and how fast it is (!), is the fact you can change your team every single day.

In the NBC game, you choose 15 riders and then you switch only (!) between those 15 for the whole tour (!). You have "bench" of riders on your team, if you will.

So, make a bad choice of your original 15, and, boom (!) you're screwed (!). I hate that part (!).

I'll say this, the only (!) thing I like is they have oogles (!) of riders at the low end. To offset that (!) however, their "Stars" (!) are extremely (!) expensive.

You get a budget of $500 over there, with which you get to pick 15 riders, and Froome, Contador, Cavendish, Sagan and Greipel were $95, $91, $91, $89 and $81, respectively. Wuf! You ate a lot of your budget on those boys if you wanted them on your team (!).

This year I was especially attentive to how they valued their riders because a friend, who's much more into cycling than I am, and a much better player, got to review their rider salaries before they got posted just because his girfriend is a Production Assistant at NBC Sports. So he got to witness the whole process.

They started to discuss salaries on June 7 2013. Of course, they're busy with other sports throughout the year and they only care about the Tour de France.

They went off the start lists at ProCyclingStats and CyclingFever. There were dozens of emails exchanged discussing rider values between then and the time the first game start list went up.

They put up their original game start list on June 27 and added or deleted riders to their game start list as teams updated their rosters. Their start list was finalized, of course, when Garmin announce their roster on June 26.

Now their (!) lowest value for a rider is $4. But there were only 3 riders at this level, Marangoni, Erviti and Noval. Then there were a boatload of riders at the $5 level, 21, then a further 28 riders between $6 and $10 and 58 between $10 and $20.

Now, how did they value their riders? They had someone establish their values based on "we want the riders we expect to gain the most points in the competition to cost the most". Last year they had Wiggins at $99 and Cavendish at $103 and believ it or not, they had Froome at $7! That was it. Form wasn't a consideration. Or maybe it was, but there was no formula.

Now, my point is I think we should rely a little bit less on formulas and go back, at least for the Tour, to mixing in a little more human element into the process.

I agree with stevemarks. Sometimes it felt like:

stevemarks wrote:

You might as well make it a game of 6 choices and save the time spent pointlessly looking to see if you could regig the team.

When I wanted to get rid of Schleck, but keep other riders, I could only come up with Serpa as a close alternative. All the others were too expensive. And swap out my domestiques, my 3.0 riders? What for? I wouldn't get any points from the guys I brought in and they would occupy even more (!) of my budget.

So dr said:

drheaton wrote:

... the problem is that prices are set before the rosters are announced... That means that unless you're happy with rider values changing after the competition is open... or we don't open comps until all teams are announced... there's no way to avoid a situation where cheap riders are announced in advance for a race...

Well, I didn't mind waiting till June 27 to put in my first draft team for the NBC game. June 27 still gave you a couple of days to get acquainted with the values and play around with your team (And it was only the Garmin boys we were waiting for and I wasn't too high on those(!) ):) So I would be perfectly ok with waiting the same time for this site's competition to open, especially if it means rider values can be looked at a little longer...

I just don't think it's true you have to wait till the day before the race starts to be able to set rider values close to 3.0... I realize it's true if you're relying on a formula, but that's why I'm advocating mixing in the human element, too...

I mean, I like this game, but this Tour has been a little less fun because I couldn't quite fit in riders I cared to cheer for... Maybe this game is meant more as a competition and nobody else cares that much about who they're able to put on their team, but I do (!)

drheaton wrote:

I say leave it as it is for now...

Sure! This is all talk and opinions, as far as I'm concerned! I don't want anyone (!) offended by what I'm saying! No one!

Incidentally, want to know what the prize was for the winner of the overall competition for the NBC Sports game this year? A ride of up to 30 miles with Christian Vandevelde at a location of your choice near your residence! But then, as Daily Prizes they had 4 iPhone enabled Wahoo trainers! No, I didn't win any!

Anyways, good night to all here and good morning to those of you over there!

A ride of 30 miles with Christian VanDeVelde.....a load of refunds to come methinks when VDV withdraws after 16k LOL