Price inflation

by Sanderville   June 21, 2013  

I'm already struggling. One of the cheap fillers in my purist team has pulled out and there are so few cheap riders on the roster that I had to downgrade one of my mid-league riders to accommodate the change.

If any more cheap riders drop out then I'll be screwed. Or seriously compromised.

I need a bigger budget. My human rights are being violated. I'm going to call Strasbourg.

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Dave Atkinson wrote:
you can't just feck about with the rider value half way through a grand tour. please don't be daft.

Lighten up, Mr. Atkinson! Big Grin

I can't believe you took it as anything but a joke Big Grin

Just trying to liven things up a little Big Grin

Please don't be daft enough to believe everything I write.

In the words of Jeremy Clarkson:

"I don't believe what I write, any more than you (Alastair Campbell) believe what you say" Big Grin

Just kidding, though if it wasnt such a serious game, wouldn't it be fun? Thinking

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
19th July 2013 - 0:32

1 Like

Gkam84 wrote:
Holy Moly, enrique has come up with an idea I like...

I aim to please Smile ... and entertain Wink ...

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
19th July 2013 - 0:35

2 Likes

Gkam84 wrote:
Holy Moly, enrique has come up with an idea I like.

YES, in a 9 rider per team race, it would be quite easy to make one rider from each team a super cheap guy

But if that rider is worth more then it is false engineering and doing it for the sake of it.

The game is supposed to be a challenge, not a walk in the park for toys to be spat out the pram.

posted by northstar [1110 posts]
19th July 2013 - 7:32

3 Likes

Sorry for including this suggestion here and now, but I wanted to get it in print while it was fresh in my mind.

Is it possible to have a banker included in the team lineup?

IE; you have to pick one rider (or maybe two, one sprinter one GC) for free before the competition starts, he costs nothing then you have 150 points for the other eight.

I know most people will choose the same rider in lots of competitions, but that may not necessarily be the best choice, and adds another aspect to the game. Knowing you have a banker in your team allows you a little more flexibility to play with your other riders.

Could it work or is it making the game too purist like some some people?

Thinking Thinking

posted by stevemarks [424 posts]
19th July 2013 - 7:49

2 Likes

stevemarks wrote:
... Is it possible to have a banker included in the team lineup?...

I don't get how this works Thinking What's the banker do for you and how do you use him?... Thinking

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
19th July 2013 - 18:55

1 Like

You dont have to load your team up with 3.0 pointers. I have 2 in my team today and still had enough credits to get a team that scored 120+ points on the stage.

Admittedly those lower valued riders who scored well for me wouldn't necessarily have been in my original team but i disagree about changing value's of riders so that there are more 3 pointers.

The game is the same for everyone so just accept it and try to enjoy it without going to the umpteenth degree in disecting it during the season when its obvious it aint going to change until the end of the season.

There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.

stumps's picture

posted by stumps [2847 posts]
19th July 2013 - 18:55

3 Likes

TERatcliffe26 wrote:
... that team you present is exactly why things changed, when you are able to pick a team such as that it is too easy...

Today's stage is an example of why I think you overestimate the effect of being able to pick the 4 highest value riders and put them on your team. How many stages have been won by a breakaway this year? And what do people do on stages like today? Pick the 4 highest value riders and stick with them? No, obviously. The true players and risk takers gambled today and won big time! So I'd be ok with being able to fit in the 4 Top Rated riders in your team along with 5 no-name DS's! You can have fun pickijng them, but you certainly aren't going to win the competition! Would the scores be much closer tan they are now? Probably. But I think that makes it more exciting! Smile

TERatcliffe26 wrote:
... back then values were not based on form...

I like the fact that values are based on form, I just wish there were sort of, two or three tiers more distinctly visible, something like:

10-15 Stars, at a value of 25 to 40,

20-25 All-Rounders, at a value of say, 10 to 25,

and then a bunch (!), maybe 140+ of DS's all below 7.5, and at least 10 at the 3.0 level, sort of a proportion for each competition, something predicatble (!) instead of just (!) value formula driven which would give the values a more stable structure within each competitio,

Now you could say, Enrique -

drheaton wrote:
You're just pulling these numbers out of your arse aren't you?

and I would have to say, categorically - Yes! Big Grin

It's just an idea... But one I like (!)

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
19th July 2013 - 18:59

2 Likes

Gkam84 wrote:
Holy Moly, enrique has come up with an idea I like.

YES, in a 9 rider per team race, it would be quite easy to make one rider from each team a super cheap guy

no it wouldn't.

because you don't know the final squad until the day before the race.

Dave Atkinson's picture

posted by Dave Atkinson [7504 posts]
19th July 2013 - 19:12

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enrique wrote:

I can't believe you took it as anything but a joke Big Grin

it wasn't a joke, except in the sense that as a good idea, it was a joke.

you posted it here, and you started another forum topic to try and resurrect it when everyone rubbished it on this one.

enrique wrote:

Just trying to liven things up a little Big Grin

don't.

Dave Atkinson's picture

posted by Dave Atkinson [7504 posts]
19th July 2013 - 19:13

2 Likes

Dave Atkinson wrote:
Gkam84 wrote:
Holy Moly, enrique has come up with an idea I like.

YES, in a 9 rider per team race, it would be quite easy to make one rider from each team a super cheap guy

no it wouldn't.

because you don't know the final squad until the day before the race.

Don't spoil it. I never said anything about a rider in the race. Just ONE rider from each team that will be taking part. He doesn't have to be on the startlist Devil Devil Devil Devil Devil

Gkam84's picture

posted by Gkam84 [9040 posts]
19th July 2013 - 20:02

2 Likes

Dave Atkinson wrote:
... it's an ongoing process...

That it is! Smile

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
19th July 2013 - 20:05

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enrique wrote:
stevemarks wrote:
... Is it possible to have a banker included in the team lineup?...

I don't get how this works Thinking What's the banker do for you and how do you use him?... Thinking

You get to choose one rider for free at the start of the competition and he is not transferable. Then you have 150 credits to play with for eight guys. As I said a lot of people will have put in Froome or Sagan but with the extra breakaway points they may not be the highest scorers. It just means that you have more credits to play with for medium/cheap guys and the added interest of finding the perfect Banker who will make you the most points in a purist kind of way.

Simples

posted by stevemarks [424 posts]
19th July 2013 - 21:29

2 Likes

stevemarks wrote:
You get to choose one rider for free at the start of the competition and he is not transferable. Then you have 150 credits to play with for eight guys...

I like it, but, I would have it as a tiebreaker...

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
19th July 2013 - 22:11

3 Likes

What a bunch of whiners and sourpusses! Enjoy the game!

posted by natalie [1 posts]
20th July 2013 - 7:00

4 Likes

It seems(I might be wrong)that good performances effect a rise in price far more than a poor performance effects a fall.

Andy Schleck for example started the season at 3.0 and has not really done much yet he's trebled in price to 9.2 but I doubt anyone has gone in the opposite direction.

posted by ray silvester [1858 posts]
20th July 2013 - 9:37

1 Like

stevemarks wrote:
enrique wrote:
stevemarks wrote:
... Is it possible to have a banker included in the team lineup?...

I don't get how this works Thinking What's the banker do for you and how do you use him?... Thinking

You get to choose one rider for free at the start of the competition and he is not transferable. Then you have 150 credits to play with for eight guys. As I said a lot of people will have put in Froome or Sagan but with the extra breakaway points they may not be the highest scorers. It just means that you have more credits to play with for medium/cheap guys and the added interest of finding the perfect Banker who will make you the most points in a purist kind of way.

Simples

I'd go even further and say he's the team captain and therefore scores double points.

posted by ray silvester [1858 posts]
20th July 2013 - 10:41

3 Likes

ray silvester wrote:
... Andy Schleck for example started the season at 3.0... yet he's trebled in price to 9.2... I doubt anyone has gone in the opposite direction.

Well, I may be wrong but, maybe (!), the reason we haven't seen that might just be that, hell, if you're not scoring in real life or putting in a real effort, you won't (!) get chosen to the 'actual' Tour de France (!) , so we won't see them in the game (!)... Maybe I'm right... Wink It'd be fun to have access to the values before and after the Tour of all to check though... But maybe you have a point because, what I don't know is, if, timingwise, a rider's value is recalculated after the Tour or only if they appear on the start list for a next race... Thinking I don't know, but it'd be nice to know! Thinking

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
20th July 2013 - 16:03

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ray silvester wrote:
I'd go even further and say he... scores double points.

In a tie breaker...

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
20th July 2013 - 16:04

1 Like

But you can't just say, He's 3 for this race and 9.2 for that race. Its worked out over a YEAR and getting the value at the start of one race to the next won't work either.

Because its not just worked out on past form, its also worked out on the profile of the stages. So Schleck scores most of his points on higher stages, with the tour having mainly MM HM and SF stages, his value was always going to go up.

For instance, If Cav was going to be racing the Tour of Poland, I did the values for them yesterday, he was down at 32 Wink

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posted by Gkam84 [9040 posts]
20th July 2013 - 16:40

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I don't like the ideas of having a 'protected' rider in your team or a team captain, either of which would get double points and not be transferred.

Apart from the fact that it over complicates things I think that if this rider is outside of your budget and a fixed item in your team then as soon as one of the major contenders crashes everyone will be up in arms that they can't transfer them. There are two types of play in the game, transferring and purist. Forcing a standard, transferring, player to not transfer one person is mixing it all up for no real clear benefit.

Likewise people want more cheap riders for more team variety. What benefit is there to every team having Sagan or Froome as their protected rider?

Finally, if you have to keep one rider in your team for all stages then you're effectively handicapped on the stages where that rider doesn't feature. If you picked Froome as your leader then you have to have him in your team on the flat or medium stages where he won't feature much.

posted by drheaton [3429 posts]
20th July 2013 - 17:25

0 Likes

Tomorrow is another day in the Tour that I wish I had more space in my budget...

Let me say this, which is obvious, having the same (!) domestiques as everyone else does (!) make teams more similar on day's like tomorrow. That's why I advocate having so more riders at the 3.0 level!

When you're planning for a 3 week tour, on the very flat stages you'll want the top point getters on this list, because the scoring table is so heavily skewed towards the top:

Mark Cavendish
Peter Sagan
André Greipel
Alexander Kristoff
Marcel Kittel

That's a lot of credits right there... You really can't fit in much more in there if you don't want to lose out on too many points! Thinking

In the the mountains the same thing probably happens with (maybe not this year! Smile ) Contador, Froome and Rodriguez...

So, if that's what you want on your team, then to fit them in maybe you'll have space for 3 or 4 domestiques and maybe another decent rider...

But (!) if you have many (!) choices to make (!) at the 3.0 level, then (!) who (!) you choose at that level will stick with you for along time, and could be (!) significant in the long run, 'cause you can't overhaul your team overnight!

It's too bad there weren't so many choices this year.

In a way it's actually proof the valuation process is working, maybe too well, because the 3.0 riders have hardly contributed anything to the scoring, but because of the pricing and their few quantity and the abandonment, we've been stuck with them and there've been few, if any, surprises at that level of value (!).

I mea, I think El Fares has scored 9 points, Bonnet scored 34 points and abandoned and maybe the best (!) value has been Riblon (!) who at 8 credits has scored 191 points! But I think that's it.

So I'm partial to creating a structure rather than relying so heavily on formulas... Not trying to insult anyone here...

So yeah, I really believe it's a good idea, for next year, of course, to have many more riders at the 3.0 level or thereabouts...

enrique wrote:
I imagine that tomorrow everybody will have Froome, Contador, Quintana and the same 4 or 5 domestiques.

Well, I wish we could see actual figures for the managed teams telling us what percentage of the 'active' teams brought in what rider... Thinking

I bet that, of course, 98% of the "still-managed" teams will bring in Cavendish, 75% will bring in Greipel, 80% Kittel and more than 65% will bring in Sagan... But it'd be nice to see the actual figures, but, please, don't get me wrong, I don't expect them tomorrow Thinking

And I don't expect to see them any day soon, either, and I know I'm the only one thinking it would be cool to see that, and I don't want to create more work for Dave, either... Wink It's just a thought! Wink

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
20th July 2013 - 20:28

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enrique wrote:
Tomorrow is another day in the Tour that I wish I had more space in my budget...

Let me say this, which is obvious, having the same (!) domestiques as everyone else does (!) make teams more similar on day's like tomorrow. That's why I advocate having so more riders at the 3.0 level!

When you're planning for a 3 week tour, on the very flat stages you'll want the top point getters on this list, because the scoring table is so heavily skewed towards the top:

Mark Cavendish
Peter Sagan
André Greipel
Alexander Kristoff
Marcel Kittel

That's a lot of credits right there... You really can't fit in much more in there if you don't want to lose out on too many points! Thinking

In the the mountains the same thing probably happens with (maybe not this year! Smile ) Contador, Froome and Rodriguez...

So, if that's what you want on your team, then to fit them in maybe you'll have space for 3 or 4 domestiques and maybe another decent rider...

But (!) if you have many (!) choices to make (!) at the 3.0 level, then (!) who (!) you choose at that level will stick with you for along time, and could be (!) significant in the long run, 'cause you can't overhaul your team overnight!

It's too bad there weren't so many choices this year.

Once again you totally miss the point. The reason you can't have all of the best sprinters in your team for tomorrow is not that there are too few 3 credit riders, its because you SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO HAVE ALL THE BEST SPRINTERS IN YOUR TEAM!

Likewise in the mountains, why do you think you should be able to have Froome, Rodriguez, Valverde and Contador all in your team? And why would having twenty three credit riders make any difference?

Whatever happens the best teams will all have the same 'stars' and a few cheap riders. If you artificially make some riders cost 3 credits, riders like Hoogerland or Schleck then they will be picked by everyone because they're better choices than Mederel or Fischer so everyone WILL STILL HAVE THE SAME TEAM!

enrique wrote:
In a way it's actually proof the valuation process is working, maybe too well, because the 3.0 riders have hardly contributed anything to the scoring, but because of the pricing and their few quantity and the abandonment, we've been stuck with them and there've been few, if any, surprises at that level of value (!).

So yeah, I really believe it's a good idea, for next year, of course, to have many more riders at the 3.0 level or thereabouts...

enrique wrote:
I imagine that tomorrow everybody will have Froome, Contador, Quintana and the same 4 or 5 domestiques.

Well, I wish we could see actual figures for the managed teams telling us what percentage of the 'active' teams brought in what rider... Thinking

I bet that, of course, 98% of the "still-managed" teams will bring in Cavendish, 75% will bring in Greipel, 80% Kittel and more than 65% will bring in Sagan... But it'd be nice to see the actual figures, but, please, don't get me wrong, I don't expect them tomorrow Thinking

And I don't expect to see them any day soon, either, and I know I'm the only one thinking it would be cool to see that, and I don't want to create more work for Dave, either... Wink It's just a thought! Wink

No matter what anyone does, all players will pick the best options at any one price point. If you have a dozen three credit riders everyone will pick the ones most likely to score so you're not changing anything, everyone will still pick the same riders, everyone will pick the riders who are most likely to score points. Tweak the game however you want, that will never change.

posted by drheaton [3429 posts]
20th July 2013 - 20:38

1 Like

enrique wrote:
Tomorrow is another day in the Tour that I wish... we could see actual figures for the... teams telling us what... teams brought in what rider...

What I mean is, we have the Dream Team, right? The team of 9 riders that, without considering budget restraints, would have scored the most points? That's (!) been built into the system. And I like it! Big Grin

Well, it's the same idea, but what I'd like to see is the 9 most picked riders by the users for that stage. Just out of curiousity and fun! Smile I know it's just a dream, but, what the hell? Wink

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
20th July 2013 - 20:42

1 Like

drheaton wrote:
I don't like the ideas of having a 'protected' rider in your team or a team captain, either of which would get double points and not be transferred.

Apart from the fact that it over complicates things I think that if this rider is outside of your budget and a fixed item in your team then as soon as one of the major contenders crashes everyone will be up in arms that they can't transfer them. There are two types of play in the game, transferring and purist. Forcing a standard, transferring, player to not transfer one person is mixing it all up for no real clear benefit.

Likewise people want more cheap riders for more team variety. What benefit is there to every team having Sagan or Froome as their protected rider?

Finally, if you have to keep one rider in your team for all stages then you're effectively handicapped on the stages where that rider doesn't feature. If you picked Froome as your leader then you have to have him in your team on the flat or medium stages where he won't feature much.

I can see your point about people being up in arms about not being able to transfer out a DNF although maybe that could be solved by allowing a transfer if a withdrawl happened. Yes that would increase the complication a little but I disagree with your other arguments. I did not suggest double points for a team leader, and do not see that as in any way necessary. I am not looking for more cheap riders, just the option of having some choice. I am not being greedy, my team has only picked one 40 pointer on less than half the stages, and I must be typical.

There is a clear benefit of having 150 points to divide between eight riders knowing you have your "banker". It means you should be able to afford more riders in the 5/20 range rather than the 3/10 range. Or choose another big name, it would be a judgement call.

As for the handicapped statement, that does not hold water with me as I have been handicapped in every stage by having picked a couple of 3.0 riders who I could not afford to transfer out. It's not even been worth taking a 10 point penalty because at times there has literally been no other option. on the basis of this TDF I have been playing effectively with 6 or 7 riders every stage and sometimes as few as 4. You might as well make it a game of 6 choices and save the time spent pointlessly looking to see if you could regig the team.

Finally that is the whole point of bringing a little bit of purist play into the standard game as you HAVE to make a judgement call, to pick a GC guy, an all rounder, a sprinter, or a guy for the breaks.

It's just an idea that I thought Could work, please do not dismiss it just because enrique might have seemed to like it. Probably it would be easier just to raise the points available back to 175 to have the same effect.

I am not suggesting something because I want to pick more cheap riders, I am suggesting ideas so that I have the option of picking riders and not writing off 1/2/3 or more of my team every stage.

PS

I love the game, and would be perfectly happy if it didn't change at all!

Now I'm off to watch La Classica on Jaizkibel (have you seen the startlist it's like a whos who of the tour without Froomedog and Bertie(for obvious reasons)). Then I am going to try the Tourmelet for the first time ever, wish me luck as last time I looked it had been washed away.

Back in September

Nice August everyone!

Big Grin

posted by stevemarks [424 posts]
20th July 2013 - 22:07

1 Like

chrisdstripes wrote:
... I wonder what impact it would have if the algorithm used to calculate rider values did NOT account for points scored from Intermediate sprints, KOM or combativity?...

Or (!) the teammate bonus! For example, Albert Timmer's only points in the Tour came from teammate bonuses, maybe if those get factored out of the evaluation he might have been a nice 3.0 rider to have (!) Thinking

And hoping to bring more clearly into focus the need to establish a structure within (!) a team for the Tour, I'd like to point out Sky, where Boassen Hagen at 31.7 racked up 132 points before he had to abandon and where Geraint Thomas at 24.4, though some may argue it was because he was hurt, only racked up 15 points all in teammate bonuses...

I honestly don't know how other Sky riders did, but I believe that, except for Richie Porte, most were obviously dedicated to the mission at hand, and only Boassen Hagen and Porte actively tried to race, so, in this case, whatever they had done in previous races for themselves was not necessarily expected from them at the Tour...

In that respect, maybe the Sky riders, specifically those whose values appear below, might have been able to have been offered at lower values:

Ian Stannard Sky 11.0
Kanstantin Siutsou Sky 12.2
Geraint Thomas Sky 24.4
David Lopez Garcia Sky 15.6
Vasil Kiryienka Sky 17.0
Peter Kennaugh Sky 10.1

Since for the most part all they got were 5 point teammate bonuses. Maybe they should have all been at the 3.0 to 5.o level, just for the Tour. That's what I maen that each team should be able to have at least one, or maybe more (!) than one rider at 3.0 or near.

Of course, this is all hindisght(!)... Thinking

So perfectly valuating a rider from what they've done in the past 12 months should maybe not (!) be the ultimate measurement of a rider's value in the game for the Tour...

It's a different animal and team structure and intentions, should, in my mind, play a part in the valuation for the riders for the Tour, and that will take some meddling by the game managers and not just relying on a formula to give us a value... I say all this without wanting to criticize anyone... I just think the balance we week needs aliitle human input to make it more balanced and fun... I'm not trying to convince anyone who honestly believes the game is ok as it is, I won't argue that, I just believ it need some more tinkering, if only for the Tour...

And, yeah, then there's the Combativity prize... Sad

I can only imagine that scores are input into the system in their 'raw' form, just input whatever the rider got into the equation without any weight attached to how those points were obtained, so, if that's true, it would probably be a headache to sort all those points out Thinking

But I'll be glad to submit just (!) Finish Line points for a slew of races throughout the season if anybody wants me to! Big Grin Even the ones that aren't in the game! Smile

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
20th July 2013 - 22:28

1 Like

stevemarks wrote:
I love the game, and would be perfectly happy if it didn't change at all!

It is (!) the best out there... Smile

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
20th July 2013 - 22:43

1 Like

Why Enrique do you not read what is written? No matter how much you go on about certain riders should be 3 credits this that and the other. You cannot artificially change the values, as the values are set on form and for a whole teams squad, not just the 9 riders riding. Go and moan to Dave Brailsford over who he picks. Just because a certain team chooses to use certain riders in a certain way at this race, does not mean that over the whole year those riders are not worth that value. Its up to you as a player to think, well Sky won't go for breaks so I won't pick them no matter what there value.

posted by TERatcliffe26 [3993 posts]
21st July 2013 - 0:51

1 Like

stevemarks wrote:
Now I'm off to watch La Classica on Jaizkibel...

Loved all your post. All of it.

stevemarks wrote:
I have been playing effectively with 6 or 7 riders every stage and sometimes as few as 4. You might as well make it a game of 6 choices and save the time spent pointlessly looking to see if you could regig the team.

Wow. Perfectly put.

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posted by enrique [1795 posts]
21st July 2013 - 0:53

2 Likes

I played the NBC Fantasy Cycling Challenge again this year. Nowhere near as fun as this site, but (!) I almost have to (!) play since there's a whole host load of people and a ton of friends that play and it's become an annual ritual to see if anyone can win one of their Daily prizes. I never win, but that's beside the point.

It's also become a huge scenario where you can display your 'bragging rights' as the guy who knows the most about cycling! And you know cycling is huge in New York Smile.

The one great thing about this game, the Roadcc game, apart from the sleek design, the beautiful colors, and how fast it is (!), is the fact you can change your team every single day.

In the NBC game, you choose 15 riders and then you switch only (!) between those 15 for the whole tour (!). You have "bench" of riders on your team, if you will.

So, make a bad choice of your original 15, and, boom (!) you're screwed (!). I hate that part (!).

I'll say this, the only (!) thing I like is they have oogles (!) of riders at the low end. To offset that (!) however, their "Stars" (!) are extremely (!) expensive.

You get a budget of $500 over there, with which you get to pick 15 riders, and Froome, Contador, Cavendish, Sagan and Greipel were $95, $91, $91, $89 and $81, respectively. Wuf! You ate a lot of your budget on those boys if you wanted them on your team (!).

This year I was especially attentive to how they valued their riders because a friend, who's much more into cycling than I am, and a much better player, got to review their rider salaries before they got posted just because his girfriend is a Production Assistant at NBC Sports. So he got to witness the whole process.

They started to discuss salaries on June 7 2013. Of course, they're busy with other sports throughout the year and they only care about the Tour de France.

They went off the start lists at ProCyclingStats and CyclingFever. There were dozens of emails exchanged discussing rider values between then and the time the first game start list went up.

They put up their original game start list on June 27 and added or deleted riders to their game start list as teams updated their rosters. Their start list was finalized, of course, when Garmin announce their roster on June 26.

Now their (!) lowest value for a rider is $4. But there were only 3 riders at this level, Marangoni, Erviti and Noval. Then there were a boatload of riders at the $5 level, 21, then a further 28 riders between $6 and $10 and 58 between $10 and $20.

Now, how did they value their riders? They had someone establish their values based on "we want the riders we expect to gain the most points in the competition to cost the most". Last year they had Wiggins at $99 and Cavendish at $103 and believ it or not, they had Froome at $7! Smile That was it. Form wasn't a consideration. Or maybe it was, but there was no formula.

Now, my point is I think we should rely a little bit less on formulas and go back, at least for the Tour, to mixing in a little more human element into the process.

I agree with stevemarks. Sometimes it felt like:

stevemarks wrote:
You might as well make it a game of 6 choices and save the time spent pointlessly looking to see if you could regig the team.

When I wanted to get rid of Schleck, but keep other riders, I could only come up with Serpa as a close alternative. All the others were too expensive. And swap out my domestiques, my 3.0 riders? What for? I wouldn't get any points from the guys I brought in and they would occupy even more (!) of my budget.

So dr said:

drheaton wrote:
... the problem is that prices are set before the rosters are announced... That means that unless you're happy with rider values changing after the competition is open... or we don't open comps until all teams are announced... there's no way to avoid a situation where cheap riders are announced in advance for a race...

Well, I didn't mind waiting till June 27 to put in my first draft team for the NBC game. June 27 still gave you a couple of days to get acquainted with the values and play around with your team (And it was only the Garmin boys we were waiting for and I wasn't too high on those(!) )Smile So I would be perfectly ok with waiting the same time for this site's competition to open, especially if it means rider values can be looked at a little longer...

I just don't think it's true you have to wait till the day before the race starts to be able to set rider values close to 3.0... I realize it's true if you're relying on a formula, but that's why I'm advocating mixing in the human element, too...

I mean, I like this game, but this Tour has been a little less fun because I couldn't quite fit in riders I cared to cheer for... Maybe this game is meant more as a competition and nobody else cares that much about who they're able to put on their team, but I do (!) Smile

drheaton wrote:
I say leave it as it is for now...

Sure! This is all talk and opinions, as far as I'm concerned! Smile I don't want anyone (!) offended by what I'm saying! No one! Smile

Incidentally, want to know what the prize was for the winner of the overall competition for the NBC Sports game this year? Smile A ride of up to 30 miles with Christian Vandevelde at a location of your choice near your residence! But then, as Daily Prizes they had 4 iPhone enabled Wahoo trainers! Smile No, I didn't win any! Crying

Anyways, good night to all here and good morning to those of you over there! Smile

Vive Le Road.cc Fantasy Cycling Game!

posted by enrique [1795 posts]
21st July 2013 - 6:37

1 Like

enrique wrote:
I played the NBC Fantasy Cycling Challenge again this year. Nowhere near as fun as this site, but (!) I almost have to (!) play since there's a whole host load of people and a ton of friends that play and it's become an annual ritual to see if anyone can win one of their Daily prizes. I never win, but that's beside the point.

It's also become a huge scenario where you can display your 'bragging rights' as the guy who knows the most about cycling! And you know cycling is huge in New York Smile.

The one great thing about this game, the Roadcc game, apart from the sleek design, the beautiful colors, and how fast it is (!), is the fact you can change your team every single day.

In the NBC game, you choose 15 riders and then you switch only (!) between those 15 for the whole tour (!). You have "bench" of riders on your team, if you will.

So, make a bad choice of your original 15, and, boom (!) you're screwed (!). I hate that part (!).

I'll say this, the only (!) thing I like is they have oogles (!) of riders at the low end. To offset that (!) however, their "Stars" (!) are extremely (!) expensive.

You get a budget of $500 over there, with which you get to pick 15 riders, and Froome, Contador, Cavendish, Sagan and Greipel were $95, $91, $91, $89 and $81, respectively. Wuf! You ate a lot of your budget on those boys if you wanted them on your team (!).

This year I was especially attentive to how they valued their riders because a friend, who's much more into cycling than I am, and a much better player, got to review their rider salaries before they got posted just because his girfriend is a Production Assistant at NBC Sports. So he got to witness the whole process.

They started to discuss salaries on June 7 2013. Of course, they're busy with other sports throughout the year and they only care about the Tour de France.

They went off the start lists at ProCyclingStats and CyclingFever. There were dozens of emails exchanged discussing rider values between then and the time the first game start list went up.

They put up their original game start list on June 27 and added or deleted riders to their game start list as teams updated their rosters. Their start list was finalized, of course, when Garmin announce their roster on June 26.

Now their (!) lowest value for a rider is $4. But there were only 3 riders at this level, Marangoni, Erviti and Noval. Then there were a boatload of riders at the $5 level, 21, then a further 28 riders between $6 and $10 and 58 between $10 and $20.

Now, how did they value their riders? They had someone establish their values based on "we want the riders we expect to gain the most points in the competition to cost the most". Last year they had Wiggins at $99 and Cavendish at $103 and believ it or not, they had Froome at $7! Smile That was it. Form wasn't a consideration. Or maybe it was, but there was no formula.

Now, my point is I think we should rely a little bit less on formulas and go back, at least for the Tour, to mixing in a little more human element into the process.

I agree with stevemarks. Sometimes it felt like:

stevemarks wrote:
You might as well make it a game of 6 choices and save the time spent pointlessly looking to see if you could regig the team.

When I wanted to get rid of Schleck, but keep other riders, I could only come up with Serpa as a close alternative. All the others were too expensive. And swap out my domestiques, my 3.0 riders? What for? I wouldn't get any points from the guys I brought in and they would occupy even more (!) of my budget.

So dr said:

drheaton wrote:
... the problem is that prices are set before the rosters are announced... That means that unless you're happy with rider values changing after the competition is open... or we don't open comps until all teams are announced... there's no way to avoid a situation where cheap riders are announced in advance for a race...

Well, I didn't mind waiting till June 27 to put in my first draft team for the NBC game. June 27 still gave you a couple of days to get acquainted with the values and play around with your team (And it was only the Garmin boys we were waiting for and I wasn't too high on those(!) )Smile So I would be perfectly ok with waiting the same time for this site's competition to open, especially if it means rider values can be looked at a little longer...

I just don't think it's true you have to wait till the day before the race starts to be able to set rider values close to 3.0... I realize it's true if you're relying on a formula, but that's why I'm advocating mixing in the human element, too...

I mean, I like this game, but this Tour has been a little less fun because I couldn't quite fit in riders I cared to cheer for... Maybe this game is meant more as a competition and nobody else cares that much about who they're able to put on their team, but I do (!) Smile

drheaton wrote:
I say leave it as it is for now...

Sure! This is all talk and opinions, as far as I'm concerned! Smile I don't want anyone (!) offended by what I'm saying! No one! Smile

Incidentally, want to know what the prize was for the winner of the overall competition for the NBC Sports game this year? Smile A ride of up to 30 miles with Christian Vandevelde at a location of your choice near your residence! But then, as Daily Prizes they had 4 iPhone enabled Wahoo trainers! Smile No, I didn't win any! Crying

Anyways, good night to all here and good morning to those of you over there! Smile

A ride of 30 miles with Christian VanDeVelde.....a load of refunds to come methinks when VDV withdraws after 16k LOL Wink

posted by ray silvester [1858 posts]
21st July 2013 - 7:38

1 Like