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I notice that the overall winning Tour de France team has 2 riders that were not on the original list of 198 riders for that race.

Am I correct in saying that this could be the team managers strategy - to pick a couple of very cheap riders (before the final list was fixed) and accept that they will score zero, and count on getting enough points from the remaining 7 riders??

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drheaton [3318 posts] 3 years ago
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If you look, those two guys (2.3 credits each and cheaper than any actual participating riders) were brought in mid race (around the first rest day, stage 10/11) and have benefited the guy massively. If he'd had to pick listed riders he wouldn't have been able to have Voeckler, Kessiakoff, Froome, Wiggins and Pinot in his team and by doing it was able to rack up huge scores.

Is it breaking the rules? I don't think so, the game let's you pick any rider, he had a valid team at the start of the race and it was risky.

Is it entirely fair? No, and its not something I considered. I guess its for Dave to rule on but I think its just about within the rules.

Dave, is it possible to limit players to picking actual participating riders once the tour is underway? Maybe something to add to the "next year" list?

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chrisdstripes [1702 posts] 3 years ago
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Its definitely fair enough that someone has spotted that crack in the rules and exploited it - it wasn't guaranteed to work but it did, so well done. I have to say I'd rather there was a rule change next year to prevent it though.  3

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Gkam84 [9068 posts] 3 years ago
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It was the same last year. I cant remember the rider myself and alot of others (including Dave) were using ALL the time when we were short to bring in some good riders.

I remember he was Europcar and a very cheap sprinter.

So its not a new thing and is well within the rules. Last year, you HAD to have 9 riders who were starting the race to have a valid team, then you could do whatever, this year, you don't even need that  3

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rcorbin [212 posts] 3 years ago
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Hans Dekker

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TERatcliffe26 [4463 posts] 3 years ago
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Gkam84 wrote:

It was the same last year. I cant remember the rider myself and alot of others (including Dave) were using ALL the time when we were short to bring in some good riders.

I remember he was Europcar and a very cheap sprinter.

So its not a new thing and is well within the rules. Last year, you HAD to have 9 riders who were starting the race to have a valid team, then you could do whatever, this year, you don't even need that  3

Im sure it was Hans Dekkers and raced for not the same team as bert de waele if im correct, not europcar?

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Gkam84 [9068 posts] 3 years ago
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rcorbin wrote:

Hans Dekker

Thats the dude, he was one of the most popular riders last season whenever there were mountains in a stage  3

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Gkam84 [9068 posts] 3 years ago
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Landbouwkrediet was the team, raced in a dark green aswell, thats all I remembered.

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drheaton [3318 posts] 3 years ago
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I definitely think that a rule or game change that only allows you to bring in active riders would help, you don't want to be penalised if one of your riders drops out or forced to transfer our inactive riders first but only being able to bring in those currently riding (or even those on the last start list) would prevent this kind of thing happening.

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Gkam84 [9068 posts] 3 years ago
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It worked fine last year, same again just now. No need for a change. That just limits people to certain riders and everyone will be stuck with the same top guys because thats all they can afford, boring.

Also, say your rider worth 2.5 drops out of the race, but the next cheapest is 3.1, but you only have 0.3 left. You would HAVE to drop someone else, no going to work or be fair. Things are fine as they are  3

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drheaton [3318 posts] 3 years ago
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I said, don't make it force you to swap out abandoned riders, and anyway, there's loads of cheap stars now unlike last year where you had to have a sprinter at all times now you can pick a Zubeldia who's cheap as chips. Also, this wasn't about only being able to afford 2.3 credit DSs because one of your guys dropped out, this is tactically bringing in non-riders in order to use those credits elsewhere.

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dave atkinson [6142 posts] 3 years ago
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drheaton wrote:

is it possible to limit players to picking actual participating riders once the tour is underway? Maybe something to add to the "next year" list?

probably, and one to add to the list to look at in the future. although i'd add that the chap that won did so because of the scoring riders he picked, not the non-scoring ones. not much help getting Connor whassisface in if you don't then go and pick voeckler on the day he darts off the front for a three-figure haul...

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drheaton [3318 posts] 3 years ago
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Agreed, it was risky and hats off to him, but there's no denying that he wouldn't have been able to pick that team without 'bending' the rules. If, like everyone else, he picked listed DSs at a minimum of 2.7 credits, he'd have had to have one of Voeckler/Kessiakoff and that would have made the difference over 2nd place overall.

What he's done is within the rules and he still needed to pick the right guys, but I still think the rules need changing. If I'd 'played fair' and finished second because I couldn't afford Kessiakoff, Voeckler or Pinot because I had listed DSs I'd be pretty pissed.

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Gkam84 [9068 posts] 3 years ago
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I was used last year to great effect and again this year. Its not bending the rules in any way. It has been openly talked about on here a number of times. So people knew about it, its not hidden and I shall be using it through the olympics  4

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drheaton [3318 posts] 3 years ago
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Boo! For one day races surely there's no excuse to not picking actual riders!

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Alan Tullett [1566 posts] 3 years ago
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drheaton wrote:

Agreed, it was risky and hats off to him, but there's no denying that he wouldn't have been able to pick that team without 'bending' the rules. If, like everyone else, he picked listed DSs at a minimum of 2.7 credits, he'd have had to have one of Voeckler/Kessiakoff and that would have made the difference over 2nd place overall.

What he's done is within the rules and he still needed to pick the right guys, but I still think the rules need changing. If I'd 'played fair' and finished second because I couldn't afford Kessiakoff, Voeckler or Pinot because I had listed DSs I'd be pretty pissed.

I scored higher than the actual winner on both those stages (16 and 17) so picking cheap riders didn't enable him to have the best team as far as star riders were concerned. The best star combination on both that was affordable was Froome, Kessiakoff, Voeckler, Sorenson for 16 and change Sorenson to Valverde for 17, which is close what I did. I had Wiggins but it wasn't significant. In fact if I'd had Izagirre, who is cheaper, instead of Urtasun before those stages I would have won both stages and scored about nearly 50 points more so it was possible to score nearly 100 points more with all 9 riders in the TdF.

In fact If I'd had Izagirre from the start and not Vichot I would have got close to winning the whole damn thing, combined with not dropping Sagan inbetween 13 and 15 (not bitter mind).

It's a clever ruse but if it's within the rules, fair enough. However, it might be worth thinking about changing it for next year so people not aware of this trick don't lose out and I use this forum a lot and didn't realise it, but I do now for the Vuelta  3 3

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Alan Tullett [1566 posts] 3 years ago
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dave_atkinson wrote:
drheaton wrote:

is it possible to limit players to picking actual participating riders once the tour is underway? Maybe something to add to the "next year" list?

probably, and one to add to the list to look at in the future. although i'd add that the chap that won did so because of the scoring riders he picked, not the non-scoring ones. not much help getting Connor whassisface in if you don't then go and pick voeckler on the day he darts off the front for a three-figure haul...

I was just going to say he scored 96, which is what I remembered from looking at the score at the time, then I checked and saw it was 100. Did some points get transferred from another rider because my overall total didn't change? I think they must have come from Kessiakoff. His score seems lower than I remember. Is Tommy V the first rider to score 100 points on a stage?

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Mrdowen [43 posts] 3 years ago
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10 stages with an "incomplete" team is bending the rules. This is not a big problem in a free game. I've paid to be premium and I feel slightly cheated. As regards to reading the forum for tips - all rules should be noted clearly at the beginning.

If things don't change I'll be playing free next year. The "old boys forum" will not be getting my money.

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therealsmallboy [162 posts] 3 years ago
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Hi guys,

I'm the second placed player. I won the kit and am pleased with that, but on the day that Voeckler got all of those points, I had Kessiakoff. I wanted Voeckler, but I couldn't afford him because I didn't know I could use non TdF riders to give me a credit as it were.... And yeah I am pretty miffed, because I played the game fair and square....

If the rules are changed, without awarding me the bike, the guy below me the kit and the guy below him the helmet to comply with what's been said here I'll be even more annoyed, because it would only admit that it's not right.

Notwithstanding this, the rules need to be clarified, because I didn't know about this and have been playing for two years now. As far as I was concerned we were playing a TdF competition, for TdF prizes, with TdF riders. There should at least be something on the 'how to play' section.

In any event, I won the BMC team kit fair and square and can sleep happily at night.

Therealsmallboy

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Gkam84 [9068 posts] 3 years ago
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All the rules are defined here http://fantasy.road.cc/howto

An incomplete team is NOT bending the rules, I played purist and had 3 riders who didn't finish. Thats no different from using riders not in the race in my eyes.

Using whatever riders to make your team is all part of the game. If you don't like it.....fair enough.

drheaton wrote:

Boo! For one day races surely there's no excuse to not picking actual riders!

There is in the Olympics, because we have a fair idea who's going to be at the finish first, so to fit 4/5 of them in, I need to use cheapo DS's  3

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Mrdowen [43 posts] 3 years ago
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With this kind of attitude I'm not paying to be premium next year.

Best of luck Dave.

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drheaton [3318 posts] 3 years ago
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Sorry, having a half complete purist team due to people dropping out is ENTIRELY different to bringing in two cheap riders who's teams aren't even IN THE RACE!

It's a loophole, a massive one, and it needs fixing. Working to a budget and picking your riders based on what you can afford is part of the game. Picking 2 or 3 guys not racing because they allow you to get more expensive stars is not. Why not just pick 4 riders and call that a team? Use you whole budget on them and have 5 "open slots", what's the difference?

I'm all for consistency in the rules and not changing things just because a few people don't like it but this smacks of a few people wanting the loophole left open because they know something no-one else does and it gives them an advantage.

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dave atkinson [6142 posts] 3 years ago
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therealsmallboy wrote:

Hi guys,

I'm the second placed player. I won the kit and am pleased with that, but on the day that Voeckler got all of those points, I had Kessiakoff. I wanted Voeckler, but I couldn't afford him because I didn't know I could use non TdF riders to give me a credit as it were.... And yeah I am pretty miffed, because I played the game fair and square....

If the rules are changed, without awarding me the bike, the guy below me the kit and the guy below him the helmet to comply with what's been said here I'll be even more annoyed, because it would only admit that it's not right.

Notwithstanding this, the rules need to be clarified, because I didn't know about this and have been playing for two years now. As far as I was concerned we were playing a TdF competition, for TdF prizes, with TdF riders. There should at least be something on the 'how to play' section.

In any event, I won the BMC team kit fair and square and can sleep happily at night.

Therealsmallboy

congratulations on second place  1

as for the rules, we set them every year. so they'll change next year, for sure. how they'll change is normally the subject of much debate on this forum.

as they stand, the game engine allows anyone to pick riders that aren't riding, by changing the filter from 'riding this stage' to 'all riders'. and your team is still valid if you have riders greyed out:

the rules wrote:

Some of my riders didn't race in the last stage - will I still score points for the others?

Yes. So long as you have nine riders selected, you'll score. It doesn't matter if some of your riders are greyed out.

so as far as the tour is concerned, the result is what it is. assuming everyone's in the same place after the schleck update. which they seem to be.

if the concensus of opinion is that for next year it'd be better if only participating riders were available after the start of a tour, or frank's points stay in the game after he's kicked out, or the star/ds split should be binned, or whatever, then we'll look at making those changes for next year. we're always trying to make the game better for everyone, and we're always interested in what people think about it. I'm happy to admit that the game isn't perfect, and your feedback each year helps to move it forward.

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Raleigh [1665 posts] 3 years ago
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I think it should stick.

I'll put my hands up and say that I've done this, unwittingly though.

In the Giro I picked Theo Bos, who was the cheapest star by far the day he dropped out on stage 16.

I also picked the cheap DS from Europcar in this year's tour, in the days leading up to his abandonment.

If you don't like it, ask for 25 more credits like last year, then you could've had Froome, Wiggins, Voeckler, Nibali AND Pinot.

Also, the phrase, "blown out of all proportion," springs to mind.

A classic case of 'I lost but I should've won.'

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livestrongnick [2118 posts] 3 years ago
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wow nice loop-hole! I agree seems to have been blown out of proportion abit, but maybe altering the game for next year might be wise, provided the budget goes up to reflect the riders values. Otherwise might as well leave this loop-hole in because the way i see it at least 4 if not 5 riders will probably go upto 40 points plus alot of good ds's will become stars!

As we are paying it is something to think about!

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dave atkinson [6142 posts] 3 years ago
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livestrongnick wrote:

Otherwise might as well leave this loop-hole in because the way i see it at least 4 if not 5 riders will probably go upto 40 points plus alot of good ds's will become stars!

As we are paying it is something to think about!

all sorts of thinking being done regarding star status and values for next year, but i'll open up a thread on that when we've got our ideas into a publishable state  1

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TERatcliffe26 [4463 posts] 3 years ago
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exactly what Raleigh has said a case of 'I lost but didn't win in many cases' and has been blown out of proportion

Most of us on this forum (Gkam, Raleigh, Drheaton etc) play the game as we enjoy the game and not to win....and you will have seen that based on th purist races we organised ourselves prior to the premium aspect, and also the track cycling comp Drheaton is overseeing. And us that debate the rules most often never win however and see it from both sides despite having different opinions, and thus the rules do end up being set in the fairest manner and are constantly reviewed. Therefore to call it the 'old boys forum' is rather unfair as we are in it for the seeing the best the game game can offer not necessarily for the prizes. the forum at the end of the day is open to all and Dave will take into account each and everyones opinion on rules, however most only bring up an issue after they dont agree with it, rather than in threads that have been set up beforehand where each and every player is more than welcome to voice a concern before the rule for the following season are implemented

Mrdowen i respect your opinion like i do everyone elses, however i totally disagree that the attitude is wrong. The rules on how riders can be used were outlined before the season, and yes you may see that as so called 'bending' but as Gkam said, under the current rules people are well within there right to run with riders not participating in that race. As far as i understand it so long as you have 9 riders within budget you team is complete and will score points, thus not an illegal team. But this is not an attitude thing as it will be reviewed by Dave, and this game is not perfect but will always aim to get better.

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enrique [2255 posts] 3 years ago
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I have no problem with using delisted riders. It's the equivalent of saying, I don't care if I get no points for these delisted riders, because it opens up my budget to fit in riders I want! I'm ok with that, 'cause I think that we should be able to use our budgets as we wish. Teams end up finishing the Grand Tours with just 4 or 5 riders, well, this is the equivalent of saying I'm playing with 7 riders, not 9. I'm ok with that. I'm all for having complete control of the budget and if someone wants to race with just 6 riders one day on the Tour, so what? Let them!...

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livestrongnick [2118 posts] 3 years ago
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I love playing this game what ever changes I'll always play it and treat it as fun and somewhere to have a good banter and a crack about our passion that it CYCLING!
I'll admit i'm not the best at this but always try my best. Hell i even won a stage on the your of Poland!!(pure luck)
As it's allowed Vuelta is gonna be fun  16

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Mrdowen [43 posts] 3 years ago
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Condoning the use of two riders in a TdF fantasy team that are riding for teams that were not in the TdF proper is very loyal TERatcliffe26.

By the way I think Drheaton agrees with me.

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TERatcliffe26 [4463 posts] 3 years ago
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Mrdowen wrote:

Condoning the use of two riders in a TdF fantasy team that are riding for teams that were not in the TdF proper is very loyal TERatcliffe26.

By the way I think Drheaton agrees with me.

I wouldnt say I condone it as such, I have never used non racing riders and wont do as its not in my nature, however it is within the current rules of the race, was basically the point I was making

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