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Just trying to drum up support to convince Dave & co to get rid of the 4 star rider rule, happy to hear counter arguments.

Reasons:
1 Does not make logical sense
2. Makes the game more complicated (keep it as simple as possible, 9 riders with a budget of 150 points, not 4 riders from this pile & 5 from this pile)
3 Disadvantages newer players, old hands understand the complexities and .... them. Newer players just scratch their heads or leave in frustration. Want to swap out Bradley Wiggins for Richie Porte, you can't but you can swap a 4 point for Porte and long as you replace Wiggins with a 26 point star rider

51 comments

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dave atkinson [6201 posts] 4 years ago
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Disadvantages newer players, old hands understand the complexities and .... them

newer players will always be at a disadvantage, no matter what the rules are.

Quote:

Newer players just scratch their heads or leave in frustration

it doesn't seem that impenetrable to me, but then it wouldn't i guess cause i've spent a lot of time looking at it. anyone else got a view?

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JAndrewHill [1207 posts] 4 years ago
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I like the different groups - like fantasy footy where you have to juggle goalies,defenders, midfielders and forwards. It makes your team more realistics. Like you wouldn't pick 11 strikers for a footy team, you wouldn't pick 11 sprinters for a cycling team. Long live the realism of fantasy cycling.

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STEVESPRO 79 [539 posts] 4 years ago
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The 4* rider rule has the thumbs up from me....In my opinion it makes the game easier for the newbies...But if you want to compete to win prizes and not just to make the TV coverage a bit more interesting then you have to do your homework...  1

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LabMonkey [97 posts] 4 years ago
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I think that too many riders are now in the star rider category and there is not enough real quality in the domestiques*... all of the good picks from last years domestiques are now star riders and I wonder who out of this years batch may make the step up? I think as Dave (and the fantasy cycling team) have learnt the riders over the past two seasons they will have inadvertently made it harder to pick out those bargins, and, the most talented riders** are now too expensive to build a strong and balanced team.

*there will of course be some surprises, I just can't see them like I could last season, and definitely the season before.

**even talented riders have bad days.

[edit] I quite liked the system of old, one GC, PC, KM, two AR - maybe simply making one of the AR riders into a pick an extra GC, PC, KM or AR rider (of your choice) might have been enough of a change. However, there were many riders in (what I consider) the wrong categories previously. Of course, we can't have it every way and I think that Dave et al have done a fantastic job. The rules are the rules, and they are the same for everyone.

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TERatcliffe26 [4576 posts] 4 years ago
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The rules are the same for everyone and i like the restriction, the only change from my point of view, due to the increase in star riders etc, is that i would have 5 star riders and 4 DS and the credits go back up to 175 credits.

Also just getting rid of the rule actually wouldnt have any real benefit due to the cost of the riders in any case, as alls you may end up with would be 5 so called star riders and then really cheap current DS riders anyway, so it would need a total price restructure if you abolished the star rider category

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letsgoup [121 posts] 4 years ago
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I like the new structure but following TERatcliffe26 thread I think the budget is maybe set a bit low, I always seem to have to pick a throw away 2 credit DS to get the riders I actually want. I think 160 credits in the current format would be better or if there was to be a change to 5 star riders and 4 DS then maybe 175 credits. Any changes now would upset the stage high score learderboard though(which I am not on by the way).

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STEVESPRO 79 [539 posts] 4 years ago
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letsgoup wrote:

I like the new structure but following TERatcliffe26 thread I think the budget is maybe set a bit low, I always seem to have to pick a throw away 2 credit DS to get the riders I actually want. I think 160 credits in the current format would be better or if there was to be a change to 5 star riders and 4 DS then maybe 175 credits. Any changes now would upset the stage high score learderboard though(which I am not on by the way).

The more credits you give,then the easier the game...On some stages those with knowhow would more or less pick the same team...At least with the 150 credits,the DS selections are vital and makes you gamble a little...But lets not forget that we are merely fantasising,those lycra clad super-humans still have to perform to the best of their sometimes temperamental abilities or else we are stuffed...  1

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TERatcliffe26 [4576 posts] 4 years ago
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with respect to the credits situation, i only think it would need changing if u had an extra star rider as opposed to a DS due to the great difference in prices, as average price for a DS is probs about 8 credits whereas for a star rider it will be mid to high 20's

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Lost faith in t... [116 posts] 4 years ago
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some people prefer the colour white, while others prefer black..
point is there will always be someone who wants something different.

there is no right or wrong.

i personally like it the way it is, if i didnt like it i wouldnt play....

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Gkam84 [9080 posts] 4 years ago
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OK OK, i know you'll all have been waiting for my tuppence worth  19

I wasn't a fan of the old system, where you had to have a GC, a KM, a PC and 2 AR, it was very inflexible, but at least we had the budget to get a decent team in.

I'm a bit more in favour of the Star vs DS system, to a point, its a bit of a waste have 4 Star riders because you cannot get a decent team in and fill the 9 riders, you have to sacrifice one star spot and get in the cheapest guy you can and then the same with the DS, i find myself looking for the cheapest DS aswell, so 2 out of my 9 riders are only chosen on their value and not ability

Also, as was pointed out above, anyone who was a DS and did anything decent last year is now a "Star" rider, even though they will only ever be a DS in their real life team. There are 156 Star riders, but if you look at it on a team to team basis and i'll use 2 teams for examples Sky, because they are British and then Rabobank, just because they also have 12 Star riders

Because the 2011 game systems to have gone now (i was using that for reference before) how many of these were in the categories that are now star riders??

Sky's Star's

D. Appollonio
E. Boasson Hagen
M. Cavendish
J. Flecha
C. Froome
S. Henao
M. Rogers
K. Siutsou
B. Swift
G. Thomas
R. Uran
B. Wiggins

Rabo's Star's

L. Boom
T. Bos
M. Breschel
G. Brown
R. Gesink
S. Kruijswijk
P. Martens
M. Matthews
B. Mollema
M. Renshaw
L. Sanchez
L. ten Dam

Then these respective DS side, Sky only have 16 and Rabo 15. Kind of leads to an uneven balance

Looking at the Sky Stars, thats nearly a whole TdF team with a couple of DS's in there and the same for Rabo

So i think the riders grouping needs to be looked at again, If most of the team who will be riding the Grand Tours are Stars, thats not going to work, as there will only be 1 or 2 road captains, TdF, Sky will have Cav and Wiggo, the rest working for them  39

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dave atkinson [6201 posts] 4 years ago
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If most of the team who will be riding the Grand Tours are Stars

that's possible with team sky and maybe a couple of other teams with a lot of riders in star categories, but then they have a lot of money and a lot of the top riders. it certainly won't universally be the case. you can only pick two of them from any one team. anyway, if someone's down as a star and you know they're going to be working for another rider, you won't pick them - you'll pick someone else. so i can't really see how it's an issue. it's not like you'll be short of riders to choose.

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fluffchucker [272 posts] 4 years ago
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Whether you have 1xGC, 1xKM, 1xPC & 2xAR or 4 Star or 5 Star riders doesn't seem to make much difference to me.
However the game is set up, we all play the same game.
We all start with the same 150 credits, we all have the same number of riders to choose in whatever categories.
As I only joined the league late on last years game, it took a while to pick up on how to play.
Somehow, there are over 50 players who seem to pick up 200+ points  14 using the same number of riders as me.
However Dave sets up the game I find we just have to be that bit more flexible & not expect to amass such a great number of points on each stage.
We have the opportunity to change 2 riders per day or save them to change 4 riders for a specialist stage, that's the gamble you take.
It may be easier to pick more top riders if we start with 160-200 credits, but I'm really not sure if it would make us better players.
It's a game, it's a gamble & I just enjoy the craic however it's set up  41
[I'm just glad I'm not the one who has to do all the maths (math~USA) & number crunching at the end of each stage]
I'm not expecting to win a new bike or set of wheels each week, but the socks are cosy  4

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Gkam84 [9080 posts] 4 years ago
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Yeah i don't think it would the slightest bit of difference using any other system of doing it, you'd still get those who will not be happy.

I think the fact that there are only a few threads this year asking for things to be changed, shows that this works.

I'm just worried about picking for the Grand Tours as its going to be impossible to balance a team out without writing off a couple of spots to cheap guys.

I'm not after winning anything, i'm just hear for fun, the minute it doesn't become fun, then i'll stop playing, like i almost did in Oman  14

BUT for some reason, the same guys are creeping towards the top again and once they get a lead, thats it, we're all in their wake  39

As i said in another thread, i have a notepad this year, so i'm already ahead of my game last year  26 19

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LiquigasDurham [2 posts] 4 years ago
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I think its spot on as it is, defo better than last year IMO.

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dave atkinson [6201 posts] 4 years ago
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Given that there's no concensus on it being awful and needing to change, it'll stay as it is. because that means i can put my feet up.

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abudhabiChris [692 posts] 4 years ago
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Yes I like it, and I think it will come into its own when the Spring Classics come around.

Although how you included the Tours of Qatar and Oman and not Het Volk is something that should cause you to hang your fantasy heads in shame.

It makes it something more like being a DS and having to balance a team, but is not as limiting as having the categories which really only worked in the grand tours.

And anyone who has played any fantasy game will be familiar with the concept of having to choose.

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orli [75 posts] 4 years ago
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Here's my proposal...

Based on:

JAndrewHill wrote:

... like fantasy footy where you have to juggle goalies, defenders, midfielders and forwards. It makes your team more realistics.

I would like to:

1. Limit the star rider pool of riders to:

A. At most 2 GC riders per team - in Sky's case, for example, just Wiggins and Froome - and maybe have the additonal criteria that if they DIDN'T get a top 10 in one of the Grand Tours, they can't be a GC Star Rider.

B. At most 2 Sprinters per team - and again - maybe limit them to people who got a top 10 finish in a Grand Tour mass sprint stage.

C. At most 2 AR's per team - - and again - maybe limit them to people who got a top 10 finish in a Classics race.

2. ALL the rest of the riders, in my opinion, should be domestiques - or - AR's - but pool them (the AR's) with the domestiques so there's no restriction in choosing as many as you want.

3. If you follow the criteria in Point No. 1 no professional team - like Sky, for example - team should have more than 6 Star Riders (Wiggins, Froome, Cavendish, Boassen Hagen, and maybe 2 others).

4. The Star Rider pool would then reflect if you're a Star Rider in Grand Tours. To LabMonkeys's point:

LabMonkey wrote:

... [There are] too many riders are now in the star rider category...

and Gkam's point:

Gkam84 wrote:

...anyone who was a DS and did anything decent last year is now a "Star" rider, even though they will only ever be a DS in their real life team...

The point is, throughout the year, in other races, a rider may be a 'Star Rider', but in a Grand Tour, they're a domestique. I think limiting the pool of Star Riders to a max of six per team - 2GC, 2 PC and 2 AR would give the game a more realistic feel and more flexibility.

In RadioShack for example:
2 GC - Andy Schleck and Frank Schleck
1 PC - Robert Wagner
1 AR - Tony Gallopin?
Domestiques - Chris Horner, Andreas Kloden, etc...

All that ends up happening is you resort the Star Rider pool and the Domestique pool to have more people available as Domestiques (or AR's). The premise is you are only classified as a Star Rider if you are expected to perform in the Grand Tours as a leader for the GC or as a a candidate for the Green Jersey. Everyone else is a domestique - or an AR available in the Domestique pool.

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dave atkinson [6201 posts] 4 years ago
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thanks for that orli. some good ideas for next year  1

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divebabe31 [23 posts] 4 years ago
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I think it's much better than last year and I like it just as it is. I've played a fantasy cycling game where you just have a budget and pick 9 team members and I didn't find it as much fun, partly because the budget was sufficient to buy 9 really good riders. I really like the fact that if you want the top riders then you have to look at the low value domestiques - who sometimes surprise by scoring a whole load of points you really weren't expecting.

So keep yer feet up Dave!

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fluffchucker [272 posts] 4 years ago
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dave_atkinson wrote:

Given that there's no concensus on it being awful and needing to change, it'll stay as it is. because that means i can put my feet up.

with a Cup o Rosie Lee & a Doubledecker
You've earned it  41 41 41

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Gkam84 [9080 posts] 4 years ago
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dave_atkinson wrote:

Given that there's no concensus on it being awful and needing to change, it'll stay as it is. because that means i can put my feet up.

NO, you have a half marathon to be training for in a couple of weeks, get the joggers on and out for a....erm....jog  4

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dave atkinson [6201 posts] 4 years ago
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running sucks tho  4

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Wookster [53 posts] 4 years ago
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All good here Dave, really enjoying this years game except my mate is hammering me on every stage!!

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Wookster [53 posts] 4 years ago
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All good here Dave, really enjoying this years game except my mate is hammering me on every stage!!

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letsgoup [121 posts] 4 years ago
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I think we have started so lets finish. The game is what it is and we wouldn't be here if it wasn't fun. It is fun and that's what counts. I think on reflection it should stay as it is because then we all know the score from start to finish of the season. The game works and is fun and challenging, therefore WIN WIN. Who wants to start the thread for proposed changes in 2013  39 37

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rjl [16 posts] 4 years ago
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I like this fantasy cycling game very much, even more than last year. However if it was possible, I could make some changes to get the game even much funnier (more flexible, funnier game...):

1. Limit of a maximum of 4 star riders. But to be legal when you want to have only 3 or 2 stars, and 6 or 7 Ds.

2. I agree with cherrypicked "There are no logical permanent rider categories". Andy Schleck could be star in Tour de France or Liege Bastogne Liege but not in Paris Roubaix, for example. Or Boonen a star in Paris Roubaix but not in Liege Bastogne Liege. However, I know it's very difficult to update the categories every race.

Despite of all, the rules are the same for everyone, so there's no problem at all.

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cherrypicked [166 posts] 4 years ago
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The removal of the rider categories from last year in combination with the lower point restriction is a big improvement on last year, but I think it can be improved further.

There are no logical permanent rider categories.
--Team and rider goals change with each tour/stage and even on the day as opportunities arise. Star rider one day domestique the next. (Wiggins and Boasson Hagen rode for Porte at Volta ao Algarve; even Cavendish rides for others when the team objectives demand eg Qatar last year).
--There are a continuum of riders - there is no line that defines star and it is very fickle.

Removing the 4/5 split gives more flexibility. This means people can end up selecting a wider variety of team. There would be more scope to pick up riders who are priced in the middle, particularly those who are labelled domestiques. It seems strage to have to pick 'throwaway star riders' in order to pick mid point range domestiques.

My understanding was that the limit of star riders is to make it so that you can't just pick all the top riders. This is the case at any rate, with the point restriction.

Having said all this, the game is working as it is so there is no need to rush the removal of the star/domestique distinction in, but I would definitely like it for next year.

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AWPeleton [3263 posts] 4 years ago
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I agree with GKam about the amount of star riders, especially with Sky etc, but thats due their individual and team success so not much we can do about that.

The game is great the way it is and the points people are making should be considered for next year.

My team for Paris Nice is, on paper, very good and i didnt have to cut corners to get my team. However if you want an all singing all dancing team you cant so it means you have to sit and take the time and effort to organise your team properly.

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TERatcliffe26 [4576 posts] 4 years ago
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Think my team for Paris-Nice is also pretty good on paper, well my planned transfers are as well if all goes to plan, will mean not so good on stage 2 but overall should be pretty good in the end  1

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drheaton [3318 posts] 4 years ago
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I say stick with it as it is. It's not perfect but it's pretty good.

The problem with the categories is that you have to prepare, at the start of the year, for all eventualities. There are a few sprinters in Sky's squad because they need to compete in lots of tours, for most races Appollonio, Cavendish and Swift won't compete together and in those cases they each need be classed as sprinters. On the odd occasion that you get 2 or 3 sprinters competing for the same team then it's another element to the game making you choose who from each team will ride as a the protected sprinter and who as a DS.

That being the case I'd probably agree that scrapping the pre-defined 4 star rider limit and implementing it as a cap of 4 with no minimum number of Star's (or a minimum of 2 or 3) would work well and I hope you'll consider it for next year.

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