get rid of the 4 star rider rule

newer players will always be at a disadvantage, no matter what the rules are.

it doesn't seem that impenetrable to me, but then it wouldn't i guess cause i've spent a lot of time looking at it. anyone else got a view?

I like the different groups - like fantasy footy where you have to juggle goalies,defenders, midfielders and forwards. It makes your team more realistics. Like you wouldn't pick 11 strikers for a footy team, you wouldn't pick 11 sprinters for a cycling team. Long live the realism of fantasy cycling.

The 4* rider rule has the thumbs up from me....In my opinion it makes the game easier for the newbies...But if you want to compete to win prizes and not just to make the TV coverage a bit more interesting then you have to do your homework...

I think that too many riders are now in the star rider category and there is not enough real quality in the domestiques*... all of the good picks from last years domestiques are now star riders and I wonder who out of this years batch may make the step up? I think as Dave (and the fantasy cycling team) have learnt the riders over the past two seasons they will have inadvertently made it harder to pick out those bargins, and, the most talented riders** are now too expensive to build a strong and balanced team.

*there will of course be some surprises, I just can't see them like I could last season, and definitely the season before.

**even talented riders have bad days.

[edit] I quite liked the system of old, one GC, PC, KM, two AR - maybe simply making one of the AR riders into a pick an extra GC, PC, KM or AR rider (of your choice) might have been enough of a change. However, there were many riders in (what I consider) the wrong categories previously. Of course, we can't have it every way and I think that Dave et al have done a fantastic job. The rules are the rules, and they are the same for everyone.

The rules are the same for everyone and i like the restriction, the only change from my point of view, due to the increase in star riders etc, is that i would have 5 star riders and 4 DS and the credits go back up to 175 credits.

Also just getting rid of the rule actually wouldnt have any real benefit due to the cost of the riders in any case, as alls you may end up with would be 5 so called star riders and then really cheap current DS riders anyway, so it would need a total price restructure if you abolished the star rider category

I like the new structure but following TERatcliffe26 thread I think the budget is maybe set a bit low, I always seem to have to pick a throw away 2 credit DS to get the riders I actually want. I think 160 credits in the current format would be better or if there was to be a change to 5 star riders and 4 DS then maybe 175 credits. Any changes now would upset the stage high score learderboard though(which I am not on by the way).

The more credits you give,then the easier the game...On some stages those with knowhow would more or less pick the same team...At least with the 150 credits,the DS selections are vital and makes you gamble a little...But lets not forget that we are merely fantasising,those lycra clad super-humans still have to perform to the best of their sometimes temperamental abilities or else we are stuffed...

with respect to the credits situation, i only think it would need changing if u had an extra star rider as opposed to a DS due to the great difference in prices, as average price for a DS is probs about 8 credits whereas for a star rider it will be mid to high 20's

some people prefer the colour white, while others prefer black..
point is there will always be someone who wants something different.

there is no right or wrong.

i personally like it the way it is, if i didnt like it i wouldnt play....

OK OK, i know you'll all have been waiting for my tuppence worth

I wasn't a fan of the old system, where you had to have a GC, a KM, a PC and 2 AR, it was very inflexible, but at least we had the budget to get a decent team in.

I'm a bit more in favour of the Star vs DS system, to a point, its a bit of a waste have 4 Star riders because you cannot get a decent team in and fill the 9 riders, you have to sacrifice one star spot and get in the cheapest guy you can and then the same with the DS, i find myself looking for the cheapest DS aswell, so 2 out of my 9 riders are only chosen on their value and not ability

Also, as was pointed out above, anyone who was a DS and did anything decent last year is now a "Star" rider, even though they will only ever be a DS in their real life team. There are 156 Star riders, but if you look at it on a team to team basis and i'll use 2 teams for examples Sky, because they are British and then Rabobank, just because they also have 12 Star riders

Because the 2011 game systems to have gone now (i was using that for reference before) how many of these were in the categories that are now star riders??

Sky's Star's

D. Appollonio
E. Boasson Hagen
M. Cavendish
J. Flecha
C. Froome
S. Henao
M. Rogers
K. Siutsou
B. Swift
G. Thomas
R. Uran
B. Wiggins

Rabo's Star's

L. Boom
T. Bos
M. Breschel
G. Brown
R. Gesink
S. Kruijswijk
P. Martens
M. Matthews
B. Mollema
M. Renshaw
L. Sanchez
L. ten Dam

Then these respective DS side, Sky only have 16 and Rabo 15. Kind of leads to an uneven balance

Looking at the Sky Stars, thats nearly a whole TdF team with a couple of DS's in there and the same for Rabo

So i think the riders grouping needs to be looked at again, If most of the team who will be riding the Grand Tours are Stars, thats not going to work, as there will only be 1 or 2 road captains, TdF, Sky will have Cav and Wiggo, the rest working for them

that's possible with team sky and maybe a couple of other teams with a lot of riders in star categories, but then they have a lot of money and a lot of the top riders. it certainly won't universally be the case. you can only pick two of them from any one team. anyway, if someone's down as a star and you know they're going to be working for another rider, you won't pick them - you'll pick someone else. so i can't really see how it's an issue. it's not like you'll be short of riders to choose.

Whether you have 1xGC, 1xKM, 1xPC & 2xAR or 4 Star or 5 Star riders doesn't seem to make much difference to me.
However the game is set up, we all play the same game.
We all start with the same 150 credits, we all have the same number of riders to choose in whatever categories.
As I only joined the league late on last years game, it took a while to pick up on how to play.
Somehow, there are over 50 players who seem to pick up 200+ points using the same number of riders as me.
However Dave sets up the game I find we just have to be that bit more flexible & not expect to amass such a great number of points on each stage.
We have the opportunity to change 2 riders per day or save them to change 4 riders for a specialist stage, that's the gamble you take.
It may be easier to pick more top riders if we start with 160-200 credits, but I'm really not sure if it would make us better players.
It's a game, it's a gamble & I just enjoy the craic however it's set up
[I'm just glad I'm not the one who has to do all the maths (math~USA) & number crunching at the end of each stage]
I'm not expecting to win a new bike or set of wheels each week, but the socks are cosy

Yeah i don't think it would the slightest bit of difference using any other system of doing it, you'd still get those who will not be happy.

I think the fact that there are only a few threads this year asking for things to be changed, shows that this works.

I'm just worried about picking for the Grand Tours as its going to be impossible to balance a team out without writing off a couple of spots to cheap guys.

I'm not after winning anything, i'm just hear for fun, the minute it doesn't become fun, then i'll stop playing, like i almost did in Oman

BUT for some reason, the same guys are creeping towards the top again and once they get a lead, thats it, we're all in their wake

As i said in another thread, i have a notepad this year, so i'm already ahead of my game last year

I think its spot on as it is, defo better than last year IMO.

Given that there's no concensus on it being awful and needing to change, it'll stay as it is. because that means i can put my feet up.

Yes I like it, and I think it will come into its own when the Spring Classics come around.

Although how you included the Tours of Qatar and Oman and not Het Volk is something that should cause you to hang your fantasy heads in shame.

It makes it something more like being a DS and having to balance a team, but is not as limiting as having the categories which really only worked in the grand tours.

And anyone who has played any fantasy game will be familiar with the concept of having to choose.

Here's my proposal...

Based on:

I would like to:

1. Limit the star rider pool of riders to:

A. At most 2 GC riders per team - in Sky's case, for example, just Wiggins and Froome - and maybe have the additonal criteria that if they DIDN'T get a top 10 in one of the Grand Tours, they can't be a GC Star Rider.

B. At most 2 Sprinters per team - and again - maybe limit them to people who got a top 10 finish in a Grand Tour mass sprint stage.

C. At most 2 AR's per team - - and again - maybe limit them to people who got a top 10 finish in a Classics race.

2. ALL the rest of the riders, in my opinion, should be domestiques - or - AR's - but pool them (the AR's) with the domestiques so there's no restriction in choosing as many as you want.

3. If you follow the criteria in Point No. 1 no professional team - like Sky, for example - team should have more than 6 Star Riders (Wiggins, Froome, Cavendish, Boassen Hagen, and maybe 2 others).

4. The Star Rider pool would then reflect if you're a Star Rider in Grand Tours. To LabMonkeys's point:

The point is, throughout the year, in other races, a rider may be a 'Star Rider', but in a Grand Tour, they're a domestique. I think limiting the pool of Star Riders to a max of six per team - 2GC, 2 PC and 2 AR would give the game a more realistic feel and more flexibility.

In RadioShack for example:
2 GC - Andy Schleck and Frank Schleck
1 PC - Robert Wagner
1 AR - Tony Gallopin?
Domestiques - Chris Horner, Andreas Kloden, etc...

All that ends up happening is you resort the Star Rider pool and the Domestique pool to have more people available as Domestiques (or AR's). The premise is you are only classified as a Star Rider if you are expected to perform in the Grand Tours as a leader for the GC or as a a candidate for the Green Jersey. Everyone else is a domestique - or an AR available in the Domestique pool.

thanks for that orli. some good ideas for next year

I think it's much better than last year and I like it just as it is. I've played a fantasy cycling game where you just have a budget and pick 9 team members and I didn't find it as much fun, partly because the budget was sufficient to buy 9 really good riders. I really like the fact that if you want the top riders then you have to look at the low value domestiques - who sometimes surprise by scoring a whole load of points you really weren't expecting.

So keep yer feet up Dave!

NO, you have a half marathon to be training for in a couple of weeks, get the joggers on and out for a....erm....jog

running sucks tho

All good here Dave, really enjoying this years game except my mate is hammering me on every stage!!

All good here Dave, really enjoying this years game except my mate is hammering me on every stage!!

I think we have started so lets finish. The game is what it is and we wouldn't be here if it wasn't fun. It is fun and that's what counts. I think on reflection it should stay as it is because then we all know the score from start to finish of the season. The game works and is fun and challenging, therefore WIN WIN. Who wants to start the thread for proposed changes in 2013

The removal of the rider categories from last year in combination with the lower point restriction is a big improvement on last year, but I think it can be improved further.

There are no logical permanent rider categories.
--Team and rider goals change with each tour/stage and even on the day as opportunities arise. Star rider one day domestique the next. (Wiggins and Boasson Hagen rode for Porte at Volta ao Algarve; even Cavendish rides for others when the team objectives demand eg Qatar last year).
--There are a continuum of riders - there is no line that defines star and it is very fickle.

Removing the 4/5 split gives more flexibility. This means people can end up selecting a wider variety of team. There would be more scope to pick up riders who are priced in the middle, particularly those who are labelled domestiques. It seems strage to have to pick 'throwaway star riders' in order to pick mid point range domestiques.

My understanding was that the limit of star riders is to make it so that you can't just pick all the top riders. This is the case at any rate, with the point restriction.

Having said all this, the game is working as it is so there is no need to rush the removal of the star/domestique distinction in, but I would definitely like it for next year.

I like this fantasy cycling game very much, even more than last year. However if it was possible, I could make some changes to get the game even much funnier (more flexible, funnier game...):

1. Limit of a maximum of 4 star riders. But to be legal when you want to have only 3 or 2 stars, and 6 or 7 Ds.

2. I agree with cherrypicked "There are no logical permanent rider categories". Andy Schleck could be star in Tour de France or Liege Bastogne Liege but not in Paris Roubaix, for example. Or Boonen a star in Paris Roubaix but not in Liege Bastogne Liege. However, I know it's very difficult to update the categories every race.

Despite of all, the rules are the same for everyone, so there's no problem at all.

I agree with GKam about the amount of star riders, especially with Sky etc, but thats due their individual and team success so not much we can do about that.

The game is great the way it is and the points people are making should be considered for next year.

My team for Paris Nice is, on paper, very good and i didnt have to cut corners to get my team. However if you want an all singing all dancing team you cant so it means you have to sit and take the time and effort to organise your team properly.

Think my team for Paris-Nice is also pretty good on paper, well my planned transfers are as well if all goes to plan, will mean not so good on stage 2 but overall should be pretty good in the end

I say stick with it as it is. It's not perfect but it's pretty good.

The problem with the categories is that you have to prepare, at the start of the year, for all eventualities. There are a few sprinters in Sky's squad because they need to compete in lots of tours, for most races Appollonio, Cavendish and Swift won't compete together and in those cases they each need be classed as sprinters. On the odd occasion that you get 2 or 3 sprinters competing for the same team then it's another element to the game making you choose who from each team will ride as a the protected sprinter and who as a DS.

That being the case I'd probably agree that scrapping the pre-defined 4 star rider limit and implementing it as a cap of 4 with no minimum number of Star's (or a minimum of 2 or 3) would work well and I hope you'll consider it for next year.

Yes Appollonio and Swift are sprinters but they are not going to be in the same class as Cav, Griepel and Goss (at least not this season) so should be reclassed as DS just as Bouhanni was in Oman yet he did better than Cav.

I appreciate it then comes down to the organisers deciding who is a star and who isn't which is making more work for them. It's difficult

My point was that where Sky are competing but Cav isn't in the squad Swift or Appollonio will be a sprinter and therefore where Dave et al are setting categories at the start of the season they need to sprinters. The fact that they're not in the same class is irrelevant, that's why they're cheaper!

Based on my provisional team for the Paris-Nice having a cap of 4 stars rather having to have 4 would actually be great and mean I don't have to pick Viviani

If Viviani wasn't there, I'm pretty sure alot of people would be mumping more about the star riders

Its the price hike for some i find annoying, just cause they went up a hill on a stage a couple of times with the big guys, doesn't make him a star, Taaramae is 27.7 this year, thats going to put people off him for a start, ok he was great last season when he got the chance, but he's not a star yet and them just because Roy was in aload of breaks and climbed a few mountains, he's now 23.3

Totally agree with Gkam, as for viviani, i will say he is in my paris-nice team as i expect him to top 3 on stage 2, but ive had to plan the rest of my team so i can have enough credits to get him out after that stage as its id say another 7 credits needed to put in another so called star rider that is likely to score any points throughout the rest of the race. So none of my star riders will be above 30 credits, as an average of mid/high 20's for just 4 riders is not alot as you cant really have a high 30's guy and a decent team due to the lack of 10-20 credited star riders compared to the overall number of credits

hey man you know you dont need no ticket you just get on board .... .... ....

Have to agree with you on that. I used them a lot last year but probably won't this. But we'll have to look for the new star domestiques. Gallopin has already done well, even though I had him in the wrong tour.

Think the restricted points cuts down on the options for DSs which was a big part of the fun last year, as we all know who the star riders are. It's discovering new riders and having them come good that gives me the greatest buzz. Like coming downstairs on Stage 2 of the TDU and finding out W Clarke had gone on a break and won. I'm pretty sure his 65 points is the highest individual score on a stage so far. I was on cloud 9 all day. I'd be reluctant to spend too much on a DS now until I'm sure they're going to score a bit.

One option would be to keep the game more or less the same with maybe a few less star riders and have separate budgets for star and domestique riders.
Maybe 100 for 4 stars and 50 for 5 domestiques with some of the stars becoming more expensive domestiques around about 15 points e.g. Roy, Taaramae and maybe a few others.

Any changes would have to be for next year of course.

As the Tours get more interesting these problems might seem less important. Recently it's only been worthwhile to pick about 4 out of 8/9 sprinters and AR riders. Soon it won't be so simple.

I agree, bumping the likes of Roy and Taaremae up to star rider status soesn't sit well with me, making them more expensive I agree with but possibly making them 20 credit DSs might have worked better.

Of course with the 4 and 5 split as it is it would be very difficult to fit any DS over, say, 18 credits into your team and still be able to pick anything like a half decent set of star riders. I have three 10-15 credit DSs in my provisional P-N team but to fit them in I've had to pick two sub-15 credit stars. Trying to fit one or two 20 credit DSs into my team really wouldn't work as it stands.

It's a bit early in the season to be suggesting changes though and I'm looking forward to seeing how things work out over the first lots of proper week long tours (with a mix of sprints and climbs rather than the flat ToQ and ToO) and the Giro, that'll be the real test of the new rules and I think if they work well for the Giro, TdF and Vuelta alot of the quirks that are thrown up during the shorter tours and classics can, and will, be forgiven.

This is a free, fun to play GAME! If you don't like it, don't play it.

Mate, your right this is a game, but if you take the time to look and read through the comments and see who submitted them you will see people who play the game on a regular basis, many since its inception, and who are offering ideas on how to make the game easier and more fun for everyone.

Point taken ?

There is ALWAYS ONE, do us ALL a favour, go read the above posts, no-one is saying they don't like it, yes its a game.

But as some of us played last year aswell and can see the changes and differences between both, we are merely commenting on them and suggesting possible changes for the future of this years game or next years

I you dont like what you read, DON'T REPLY

Just to say I'm a new player and I find it fairly straightforward, and the star riders thing isn't at all off-putting. It would be easier to pick the riders I want if you were allowed to choose either 3 or 4 star riders, but its the same rules for everyone and I'm really enjoying the research trying to suss out the relative merits of the cheaper domestiques. My modest aim for Paris-Nice is top 10 in East Anglia - bring it on!

I am a newbie but have picked up the game easily. I havn't followed cycling before and ive scored solid results average 140 finish top 100 on my second race found it really easy to pick up so Im all for the current set up.

My point, too bluntly put (apologies), was that this is just intended to be a bit of fun. There are various different forms the game could take, each of us has a different idea of what that may be. The rules, however, are the same for everyone so if there is a handicap or grey area it is the same for each player. I have played each year and am crap each time so I propose a system like horse racing where peolpe who do well are penalised! What, no takers.....

I like it!

In all seriousness we're not complaining about how the game works or the rules we're just trying to make suggestions on how to improve it.

The game is still relatively new and over time the rules will settle down and become consistent from year to year but while things are changing and while Dave is still open to suggestions some of us are providing feedback on how we think the game can be improved.

What's excellent about this game and road.cc is that they're willing to listen and act on these suggestions. You only have to look at my 'suggestions for 2012' thread from the back end of last year to see just how involved the players are and how much they want to help the game develop.

Even if nothing changes the fact that these ideas are considered by the guys behind the scenes is great and a huge plus for the game.

The reverse of last year, were good performers got bonuses as their riders value & team spend increased, by the end of the Giro I had close to 200pts to build my team instead of 175pt or so for most people.

For good reason it was removed for this season.

Happy to have handicapping system that is fair, because the top overall performers this year contain a lot of familiar names from last year. Losing a couple of points from the team budget for good performances in a race, should be enough.

Totally agree, I started the topic, because the 4 star rider rule made picking a team slightly more difficult for me. I wanted to see if other players thought the same and if enough players felt the same them hopefully Dave and the team behind the game would remove it some time in the future.

I was real happy to see the feedback from lots of players saying no, particularly from new players chrisdstripes & Dylan Churchill

The one issue that was raised here was the increase in number of star riders and that something needs to be done in the future.

We give feedback good & bad, because we enjoy playing the game and want to make it better. Sometimes our ideas are adopted, other times it is not.

The reverse of last year, were good performers got bonuses as their riders value & team spend increased, by the end of the Giro I had close to 200pts to build my team instead of 175pt or so for most people.

For good reason it was removed for this season.

Happy to have handicapping system that is fair, because the top overall performers this year contain a lot of familiar names from last year. Losing a couple of points from the team budget for good performances in a race, should be enough.

Totally agree, I started the topic, because the 4 star rider rule made picking a team slightly more difficult for me. I wanted to see if other players thought the same and if enough players felt the same them hopefully Dave and the team behind the game would remove it some time in the future.

I was real happy to see the feedback from lots of players saying no, particularly from new players chrisdstripes & Dylan Churchill

The one issue that was raised here was the increase in number of star riders and that something needs to be done in the future.

We give feedback good & bad, because we enjoy playing the game and want to make it better. Sometimes our ideas are adopted, other times it is not.

Do keep suggesting stuff as well. It's not like i'm the all-seeing eye or anything. just trying to make a game that's as good as possible.

It's just a game, damnit!

(please don't kill me )

Yeah, I liked this idea:

Or maybe give one extra transfer to the bottom 10% of the teams, as an incentive to stay and compete. I don't know. It would work for me!

Just to say one thing i would like to see brought in to the game is more stage rankings eg in ones local area there is a position each stage rather than just overall in the year

How about jerseys? Like, say I score in the top ten or twenty on a sprint stage, ( ) give 10 points to the person who had the most points down to 1 for 10th. Same with mountains. Then, when you click on my team, you can see where you are in the standings and who leads them. Another crazy idea