get rid of the 4 star rider rule

by nickobec   February 21, 2012  

Just trying to drum up support to convince Dave & co to get rid of the 4 star rider rule, happy to hear counter arguments.

Reasons:
1 Does not make logical sense
2. Makes the game more complicated (keep it as simple as possible, 9 riders with a budget of 150 points, not 4 riders from this pile & 5 from this pile)
3 Disadvantages newer players, old hands understand the complexities and .... them. Newer players just scratch their heads or leave in frustration. Want to swap out Bradley Wiggins for Richie Porte, you can't but you can swap a 4 point for Porte and long as you replace Wiggins with a 26 point star rider

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dave_atkinson wrote:
Given that there's no concensus on it being awful and needing to change, it'll stay as it is. because that means i can put my feet up.

with a Cup o Rosie Lee & a Doubledecker
You've earned it Applause Applause Applause

I'm always in two minds
Then I go and pick the wrong one Sad

posted by fluffchucker [283 posts]
21st February 2012 - 18:15

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dave_atkinson wrote:
Given that there's no concensus on it being awful and needing to change, it'll stay as it is. because that means i can put my feet up.

NO, you have a half marathon to be training for in a couple of weeks, get the joggers on and out for a....erm....jog Big Grin

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posted by Gkam84 [8813 posts]
21st February 2012 - 18:48

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running sucks tho Big Grin

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posted by Dave Atkinson [7312 posts]
21st February 2012 - 20:30

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All good here Dave, really enjoying this years game except my mate is hammering me on every stage!!

posted by Wookster [58 posts]
21st February 2012 - 23:17

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I think we have started so lets finish. The game is what it is and we wouldn't be here if it wasn't fun. It is fun and that's what counts. I think on reflection it should stay as it is because then we all know the score from start to finish of the season. The game works and is fun and challenging, therefore WIN WIN. Who wants to start the thread for proposed changes in 2013 Thinking Yawn

posted by letsgoup [139 posts]
21st February 2012 - 23:49

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I like this fantasy cycling game very much, even more than last year. However if it was possible, I could make some changes to get the game even much funnier (more flexible, funnier game...):

1. Limit of a maximum of 4 star riders. But to be legal when you want to have only 3 or 2 stars, and 6 or 7 Ds.

2. I agree with cherrypicked "There are no logical permanent rider categories". Andy Schleck could be star in Tour de France or Liege Bastogne Liege but not in Paris Roubaix, for example. Or Boonen a star in Paris Roubaix but not in Liege Bastogne Liege. However, I know it's very difficult to update the categories every race.

Despite of all, the rules are the same for everyone, so there's no problem at all.

posted by rjl [18 posts]
22nd February 2012 - 9:00

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The removal of the rider categories from last year in combination with the lower point restriction is a big improvement on last year, but I think it can be improved further.

There are no logical permanent rider categories.
--Team and rider goals change with each tour/stage and even on the day as opportunities arise. Star rider one day domestique the next. (Wiggins and Boasson Hagen rode for Porte at Volta ao Algarve; even Cavendish rides for others when the team objectives demand eg Qatar last year).
--There are a continuum of riders - there is no line that defines star and it is very fickle.

Removing the 4/5 split gives more flexibility. This means people can end up selecting a wider variety of team. There would be more scope to pick up riders who are priced in the middle, particularly those who are labelled domestiques. It seems strage to have to pick 'throwaway star riders' in order to pick mid point range domestiques.

My understanding was that the limit of star riders is to make it so that you can't just pick all the top riders. This is the case at any rate, with the point restriction.

Having said all this, the game is working as it is so there is no need to rush the removal of the star/domestique distinction in, but I would definitely like it for next year.

posted by cherrypicked [172 posts]
22nd February 2012 - 12:07

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I agree with GKam about the amount of star riders, especially with Sky etc, but thats due their individual and team success so not much we can do about that.

The game is great the way it is and the points people are making should be considered for next year.

My team for Paris Nice is, on paper, very good and i didnt have to cut corners to get my team. However if you want an all singing all dancing team you cant so it means you have to sit and take the time and effort to organise your team properly.

If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases observe it. Gaius Julius Caesar.

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posted by stumps [2700 posts]
22nd February 2012 - 12:30

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Think my team for Paris-Nice is also pretty good on paper, well my planned transfers are as well if all goes to plan, will mean not so good on stage 2 but overall should be pretty good in the end Smile

posted by TERatcliffe26 [3868 posts]
22nd February 2012 - 13:54

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I say stick with it as it is. It's not perfect but it's pretty good.

The problem with the categories is that you have to prepare, at the start of the year, for all eventualities. There are a few sprinters in Sky's squad because they need to compete in lots of tours, for most races Appollonio, Cavendish and Swift won't compete together and in those cases they each need be classed as sprinters. On the odd occasion that you get 2 or 3 sprinters competing for the same team then it's another element to the game making you choose who from each team will ride as a the protected sprinter and who as a DS.

That being the case I'd probably agree that scrapping the pre-defined 4 star rider limit and implementing it as a cap of 4 with no minimum number of Star's (or a minimum of 2 or 3) would work well and I hope you'll consider it for next year.

posted by drheaton [3429 posts]
22nd February 2012 - 14:03

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drheaton wrote:
I say stick with it as it is. It's not perfect but it's pretty good.

The problem with the categories is that you have to prepare, at the start of the year, for all eventualities. There are a few sprinters in Sky's squad because they need to compete in lots of tours, for most races Appollonio, Cavendish and Swift won't compete together and in those cases they each need be classed as sprinters. On the odd occasion that you get 2 or 3 sprinters competing for the same team then it's another element to the game making you choose who from each team will ride as a the protected sprinter and who as a DS.

That being the case I'd probably agree that scrapping the pre-defined 4 star rider limit and implementing it as a cap of 4 with no minimum number of Star's (or a minimum of 2 or 3) would work well and I hope you'll consider it for next year.

Yes Appollonio and Swift are sprinters but they are not going to be in the same class as Cav, Griepel and Goss (at least not this season) so should be reclassed as DS just as Bouhanni was in Oman yet he did better than Cav.

I appreciate it then comes down to the organisers deciding who is a star and who isn't which is making more work for them. It's difficult Thinking

If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases observe it. Gaius Julius Caesar.

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posted by stumps [2700 posts]
22nd February 2012 - 17:55

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My point was that where Sky are competing but Cav isn't in the squad Swift or Appollonio will be a sprinter and therefore where Dave et al are setting categories at the start of the season they need to sprinters. The fact that they're not in the same class is irrelevant, that's why they're cheaper!

Based on my provisional team for the Paris-Nice having a cap of 4 stars rather having to have 4 would actually be great and mean I don't have to pick Viviani Smile

posted by drheaton [3429 posts]
22nd February 2012 - 21:33

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If Viviani wasn't there, I'm pretty sure alot of people would be mumping more about the star riders

Its the price hike for some i find annoying, just cause they went up a hill on a stage a couple of times with the big guys, doesn't make him a star, Taaramae is 27.7 this year, thats going to put people off him for a start, ok he was great last season when he got the chance, but he's not a star yet and them just because Roy was in aload of breaks and climbed a few mountains, he's now 23.3 Angry

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posted by Gkam84 [8813 posts]
22nd February 2012 - 21:58

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Totally agree with Gkam, as for viviani, i will say he is in my paris-nice team as i expect him to top 3 on stage 2, but ive had to plan the rest of my team so i can have enough credits to get him out after that stage as its id say another 7 credits needed to put in another so called star rider that is likely to score any points throughout the rest of the race. So none of my star riders will be above 30 credits, as an average of mid/high 20's for just 4 riders is not alot as you cant really have a high 30's guy and a decent team due to the lack of 10-20 credited star riders compared to the overall number of credits

posted by TERatcliffe26 [3868 posts]
22nd February 2012 - 22:14

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hey man you know you dont need no ticket you just get on board .... .... ....

posted by prinzi [73 posts]
22nd February 2012 - 22:31

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Gkam84 wrote:
If Viviani wasn't there, I'm pretty sure alot of people would be mumping more about the star riders

Its the price hike for some i find annoying, just cause they went up a hill on a stage a couple of times with the big guys, doesn't make him a star, Taaramae is 27.7 this year, thats going to put people off him for a start, ok he was great last season when he got the chance, but he's not a star yet and them just because Roy was in aload of breaks and climbed a few mountains, he's now 23.3 Angry

Have to agree with you on that. I used them a lot last year but probably won't this. But we'll have to look for the new star domestiques. Gallopin has already done well, even though I had him in the wrong tour.

Think the restricted points cuts down on the options for DSs which was a big part of the fun last year, as we all know who the star riders are. It's discovering new riders and having them come good that gives me the greatest buzz. Like coming downstairs on Stage 2 of the TDU and finding out W Clarke had gone on a break and won. I'm pretty sure his 65 points is the highest individual score on a stage so far. I was on cloud 9 all day. I'd be reluctant to spend too much on a DS now until I'm sure they're going to score a bit.

One option would be to keep the game more or less the same with maybe a few less star riders and have separate budgets for star and domestique riders.
Maybe 100 for 4 stars and 50 for 5 domestiques with some of the stars becoming more expensive domestiques around about 15 points e.g. Roy, Taaramae and maybe a few others.

Any changes would have to be for next year of course.

As the Tours get more interesting these problems might seem less important. Recently it's only been worthwhile to pick about 4 out of 8/9 sprinters and AR riders. Soon it won't be so simple.

posted by Alan Tullett [1434 posts]
23rd February 2012 - 0:00

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I agree, bumping the likes of Roy and Taaremae up to star rider status soesn't sit well with me, making them more expensive I agree with but possibly making them 20 credit DSs might have worked better.

Of course with the 4 and 5 split as it is it would be very difficult to fit any DS over, say, 18 credits into your team and still be able to pick anything like a half decent set of star riders. I have three 10-15 credit DSs in my provisional P-N team but to fit them in I've had to pick two sub-15 credit stars. Trying to fit one or two 20 credit DSs into my team really wouldn't work as it stands.

It's a bit early in the season to be suggesting changes though and I'm looking forward to seeing how things work out over the first lots of proper week long tours (with a mix of sprints and climbs rather than the flat ToQ and ToO) and the Giro, that'll be the real test of the new rules and I think if they work well for the Giro, TdF and Vuelta alot of the quirks that are thrown up during the shorter tours and classics can, and will, be forgiven.

posted by drheaton [3429 posts]
23rd February 2012 - 9:48

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This is a free, fun to play GAME! If you don't like it, don't play it.

posted by johnboymitchell [10 posts]
23rd February 2012 - 12:42

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johnboymitchell wrote:
This is a free, fun to play GAME! If you don't like it, don't play it.

Mate, your right this is a game, but if you take the time to look and read through the comments and see who submitted them you will see people who play the game on a regular basis, many since its inception, and who are offering ideas on how to make the game easier and more fun for everyone.

Point taken ?

If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases observe it. Gaius Julius Caesar.

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posted by stumps [2700 posts]
23rd February 2012 - 14:22

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johnboymitchell wrote:
This is a free, fun to play GAME! If you don't like it, don't play it.

There is ALWAYS ONE, do us ALL a favour, go read the above posts, no-one is saying they don't like it, yes its a game.

But as some of us played last year aswell and can see the changes and differences between both, we are merely commenting on them and suggesting possible changes for the future of this years game or next years

I you dont like what you read, DON'T REPLY Big Grin

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posted by Gkam84 [8813 posts]
23rd February 2012 - 14:26

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Just to say I'm a new player and I find it fairly straightforward, and the star riders thing isn't at all off-putting. It would be easier to pick the riders I want if you were allowed to choose either 3 or 4 star riders, but its the same rules for everyone and I'm really enjoying the research trying to suss out the relative merits of the cheaper domestiques. My modest aim for Paris-Nice is top 10 in East Anglia - bring it on!

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posted by chrisdstripes [1594 posts]
23rd February 2012 - 20:07

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I am a newbie but have picked up the game easily. I havn't followed cycling before and ive scored solid results average 140 finish top 100 on my second race found it really easy to pick up so Im all for the current set up. Smile

posted by Dylan Churchill [8 posts]
23rd February 2012 - 20:50

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My point, too bluntly put (apologies), was that this is just intended to be a bit of fun. There are various different forms the game could take, each of us has a different idea of what that may be. The rules, however, are the same for everyone so if there is a handicap or grey area it is the same for each player. I have played each year and am crap each time so I propose a system like horse racing where peolpe who do well are penalised! What, no takers.....

posted by johnboymitchell [10 posts]
24th February 2012 - 0:59

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johnboymitchell wrote:
I propose a system like horse racing where peolpe who do well are penalised! What, no takers.....

I like it!

In all seriousness we're not complaining about how the game works or the rules we're just trying to make suggestions on how to improve it.

The game is still relatively new and over time the rules will settle down and become consistent from year to year but while things are changing and while Dave is still open to suggestions some of us are providing feedback on how we think the game can be improved.

What's excellent about this game and road.cc is that they're willing to listen and act on these suggestions. You only have to look at my 'suggestions for 2012' thread from the back end of last year to see just how involved the players are and how much they want to help the game develop.

Even if nothing changes the fact that these ideas are considered by the guys behind the scenes is great and a huge plus for the game.

posted by drheaton [3429 posts]
24th February 2012 - 9:22

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johnboymitchell wrote:
I propose a system like horse racing where peolpe who do well are penalised! What, no takers.....

The reverse of last year, were good performers got bonuses as their riders value & team spend increased, by the end of the Giro I had close to 200pts to build my team instead of 175pt or so for most people.

For good reason it was removed for this season.

Happy to have handicapping system that is fair, because the top overall performers this year contain a lot of familiar names from last year. Losing a couple of points from the team budget for good performances in a race, should be enough.

drheaton wrote:

In all seriousness we're not complaining about how the game works or the rules we're just trying to make suggestions on how to improve it.

Totally agree, I started the topic, because the 4 star rider rule made picking a team slightly more difficult for me. I wanted to see if other players thought the same and if enough players felt the same them hopefully Dave and the team behind the game would remove it some time in the future.

I was real happy to see the feedback from lots of players saying no, particularly from new players chrisdstripes & Dylan Churchill

The one issue that was raised here was the increase in number of star riders and that something needs to be done in the future.

We give feedback good & bad, because we enjoy playing the game and want to make it better. Sometimes our ideas are adopted, other times it is not.

posted by nickobec [260 posts]
24th February 2012 - 14:25

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Do keep suggesting stuff as well. It's not like i'm the all-seeing eye or anything. just trying to make a game that's as good as possible.

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posted by Dave Atkinson [7312 posts]
24th February 2012 - 15:37

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It's just a game, damnit! Devil

(please don't kill me Big Grin )

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posted by the_mikey [146 posts]
24th February 2012 - 18:42

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johnboymitchell wrote:
I propose a system like horse racing where peolpe who do well are penalised! What, no takers.....

nickobec wrote:
Happy to have handicapping system that is fair, because the top overall performers this year contain a lot of familiar names from last year...

Yeah, I liked this idea:

lucas wrote:
Could you.. tag on an free transfer to the team that lost the most positions in a day? Smile And take away one from the current leader? Devil Big Grin

Or maybe give one extra transfer to the bottom 10% of the teams, as an incentive to stay and compete. I don't know. It would work for me! Smile

You know who I am.

posted by orli [76 posts]
24th February 2012 - 19:14

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Just to say one thing i would like to see brought in to the game is more stage rankings eg in ones local area there is a position each stage rather than just overall in the year Cool

posted by Dylan Churchill [8 posts]
24th February 2012 - 21:27

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How about jerseys? Like, say I score in the top ten or twenty on a sprint stage, ( Surprise ) give 10 points to the person who had the most points down to 1 for 10th. Same with mountains. Then, when you click on my team, you can see where you are in the standings and who leads them. Another crazy idea Big Grin

posted by bubby016 [93 posts]
26th February 2012 - 15:31

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