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i just orderd one of these!

please dont shout, or laugh out loud. i just orders one of these!

[link removed by admin]

im poor and would never be able to afford the real thing. am going to fit 105 groupset,a nd some nice wheels! anyone had an experience with these frames? wish me luck.  39

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rhkona | 11 years ago
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Wheelz,

I was about to purchase the same frame from dhgate from the seller and prior to purchase I ran a google and found this forum post. I am wondering how this bike rides now that you have had it built-up for a a couple of months. Any complaints? would you purchase another frame from dhgate in the future?

thanks a bunch!

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withnails | 11 years ago
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Without wishing to sound too puritanical or a killjoy, but it's surprising that there's not one comment above questionning whether it's actually ethical to buy one of these rip-off frames?

Even if you ignore the fact that the safety of these frames might be unproven or the commercial damage this does to a genuine OEM, there's also real impact on owners of legitimate high-end frames who struggle to sell their bikes because of the fears of counterfeits.

It's also worth thinking about the lifetime cost of buying a fake frame - assuming you're honest when/if you sell it you'll get very, very little for it secondhand. Paying a little more for a real brand will at least give you some secondhand value.

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drheaton | 11 years ago
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I think the point is that you're paying a lot more than 'a little more' for the frame in the first place. If you want a cheap-ish Carbon frame what's the difference between buying one from a cheap brand and buying one from probably the same chinese factory made to look more expensive?

I once bought a cricket bat from my local shop, it had all the shop owners own stickers on but the toe-guard said Kookaburra, he told me that all the bats he sold (whether branded or unbranded) were made in the same factory in India, they just had different stickers on.

Likewise I bought some chinese flash guns for my camera, they're the spitting image of Canon ones with mostly the same electronics, they're straight rip offs really, but they work just fine and cost 1/10th of the price.

I see the same thing with bikes made in china, it doesn't matter what brand you buy, it's likely to have been made by the same people, the main issue with Chinese made products is quality control, but if you get a good one what harm is there? Anyway, if someone is looking at buying a Pinarello or similar brand they're going to know what they're looking at and will pay for the real thing, I think it unlikely that Wheelz' bike will suddenly mean that everyone with a real Pinarello will not be able to sell theirs on.

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Lost faith in t... | 11 years ago
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I wonder if its like buying DVDs on a black market and secretly your funding terrorism....

Companies are trying to stop on copies of there products being used and distributed (like fsa for example) i wonder if this will happen with frames in the future.

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londonplayer | 11 years ago
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Hmmmmm. I think this is a seriously bad idea.

When you're flying down a hill at 80kmh and the frame splits in two because the manufacturer has taken more care over making it look like a Pinarello Dogma rather than the safety aspect, will you still think it was a good idea to buy one?

Speaking as someone who has had a bad fall from a bike due to equipment failure (I won't name the make but you will all have heard of it - and supposedly they are known for their toughness), it is simply not worth the risk. When you ride a bike, you are trusting it with your life. Buy quality, not fake brands.

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trikeman | 11 years ago
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Not wanting to join the rights and wrongs debate but it's not just Pina's either.
If you 'delve' deep enough into Alibabba's or even the bay you can get 'replica/homage' frames badged as Colnago's, Orbea's, Kuota's or Scott and some of them are not just near look-a-likeys either.

I am not 100% all these frames come from the same factory, but whichever they come from has to have some tooling, experience and expensive equipment to build carbon frames, Dura-ace C35's and Zipps. Companies like Nike have tried to stop this 'copying' but if there is the market for less expensive, the market will be supplied.
Even the Chinese 'Rolex' copies today are identical (until stripped) and I think we will have to accept that this is a fact of life now and how long will it be before even the most avid enthusiast will be able to tell one from another, good or bad.

To buy only from recognised dealers would be one way, but in all seriousness how long can they keep going under this sort of stress and competition from on-line purchases.
I think we should enjoy riding what we have, as until governments step in this will be with us forever.

Trikeman.  3

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drheaton | 11 years ago
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The problem is the enforcement of copyright and intellectual property is woeful in China. The Chinese will only crack down on companies commiting IP theft if they're not associated with the ruling Communist party otherwise they seem to be able to get away with what they want. Even stuff like iPad's have been copied and the Chinese government bought some of the copies for their diplomats!

I get the point that quality isn't guaranteed but neither is it on the real thing, yes you're less likely to get a dud with a real rather than a copy but if you're producing Carbon frames then you've got the kit. As I've said Quality Assurance is where some of these companies cut costs, same with paying their workforce a tuppence, but for all intents and purposes the materials won't be too far off.

I'm not agreeing with the purchasing of fakes per se but it's not the end of the world. I think that most cyclists, if they were able to buy the real thing, would do so. It's not like throwaway electrical gadgets, bikes are not cheap and generally the expensive end of products are used by those with a knowledge and love of their bikes which means that they're well aware that they've got a fake and are not being conned in any way.

Also... just because it comes from China doesn't mean it's a piece of crap.

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trikeman | 11 years ago
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I tend to agree.

Unless the customer (like Pina or Shimano) demands all the equipment is destroyed after the production run they have requested and signed contracts that they will not make any others, what's stopping the manufacturer carrying on for a few more weeks using the same moulds/mandrels and designs to produce several hundred more? Worse still, sells the kit to someone who hasn't a clue......
In comes Dai, the exporter, buys them and they disappear off the radar until they land in old Blighty, USA or Taiwan - the trail well documented - not.
Component parts are really starting to hit the shores, take a look at some of the FSA kit on the bay eg. OS-99 they are a fortune but can now be bought for £30. They are still marked up with the 'titanium bolts and torques' but they are chromed mild steel. Until the demand is removed - they will still supply.
We are probably a laughing stock in the far East where they are successfully capitalising on Western greed, fashion and want for name emblasoned products. Take a tee shirt, George at Asda, cotton plain blue £2.99 - with Bench on it another £20.00 or £30.00,,,, Not to mention the Armani's. The East will churn these out all day long for a bigger margin and we all have to accept they are damned good at it, and/or very clever.

Trikeman.  3

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russyparkin | 11 years ago
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have to say i have bought some oakley 'replicas' recently from china. had them checked by an optician and they are uv400 safe. radars with 5 lenses. i have traditionally been against such things and do own genuine oakley as well. but you cannot tell the difference, everything is the same except with 5 lenses they were 14.99!.
this is almost a bit of the industries fault. they went to china to get people to make products for a reason. the cheapest costs and highest margins.

what it has done though has made some switched on chinese people realise that they can make money off the manufacturers greed. the de rosa r386 is a classic example. its the same frame as the ribble stealth yet if you bought the exact bike specs the de rosa is £1100 more. they have bought the frame off the shelf so to speak. so your paying £1000 for stickers and paint.

its a shame the way things have gone but sadly most bike manufacturers are not about bike passion they are about the best marketing team. there are some exceptions but there are some terrible offenders (especially the italian brands) they sell you spirit of italy but actually give you the back street of taiwan)

again i dont object to this as taiwan / china have made everything for years and are probably better than most western countries now

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russyparkin | 11 years ago
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all the blather seems to imply its the same geometry and tube shapes as a real one but with a slightly different carbon fibre.

thing is you could pick up your 6k pinarello, ride 20 miles, bin it on something in the road and write it off. even with a crash replacement policy its still a massive write off. where as the chinarello you order another for £350.

took the same view with the glasses, dropped a set the other day but if it had been my real set i paid £180 for i would have been livid. fortunately i just picked em up thinking thank god they are replaceable.

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Raleigh | 11 years ago
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Well Said.

Just ride guys.

Until your frame falls in half.

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wheelz | 11 years ago
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have a read of this.

i immagine most of you already no this, but som wont.

http://inrng.com/2012/02/who-made-your-bike/

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Strathlubnaig | 11 years ago
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I guess that even if the knock off frames were identical to the real thing, even coming out the back door of the plant, the long term effect is the manufacturer themselves have to spend time money effort etc in R&D and marketing the original frame, then they make zilch because of the knock offs, so in the long run it canny be a good thing really.

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drheaton | 11 years ago
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Been reading a few forum posts too on other sites and a lot of bike 'manufacturers', people like Ritte Van Vlaanderen, buy blanks from China and Taiwan, paint them up and sell them on for a tidy profit. What you get by paying 4, 5 or even 10 times the cost of going direct to the manufacturer is a decent warranty and some after-sales support.

If you're happy to not pay thousands of pounds for a warranty (that sometimes are so full of holes they're so far from watertight they may as well be sieve) I don't see the problem of buying a frame direct from a Chinese factory. All you're doing is cutting out two or three middle men all wanting their cut.

For anyone interested the names that kept coming up were DengFu and HongFu (as direct sales selling carbon frames for as little as $300 link) and PedalForce who're one step down the line and provide some kind of warranty at around 100% markup. I also read that PedalForce sell overstocks of the frames Ritte uses.

The general consensus is that, if you can get past the initial mental issue of buying direct without the after sales, you're likely to get a great frame at a fraction of the cost, there'll always be horror stories but there's also a lot of good reviews too.

For me, the big draw would be designing and painting up a blank frame into something unique and one of a kind. Likewise, without a name on them they might be less appealing to thieves and whole lot cheaper to insure/replace.

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meeces2pieces | 10 years ago
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Thanks for your input on the frame set. Can you update us on your experience on this ride?

I purchased one just last week and can only hope it is a quality steed.

Thanks

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wheelz | 10 years ago
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Hi all,

its been fine, completed about 3000 miles and have only had to replace the head bearings!

and here she is in all her splendour above lake Derwent.

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wheelz | 10 years ago
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Hi all,
Well its into its 2nd winter now, ok, its done a fare few miles and not all of them in perfect conditions. The frame has held up great, Its taken a battering, always being shoved into the back of my car for trips to the Lakes, sportives or such like, the paint is starting to get a bit chipped, but that's down to my own lack of care, but overall its held up well. It still rides great, no rattles, creaks or groans, its as true as the day we built it. The Sram Rival, and Mavic Kysirium wheels were faultless and have now been transplanted onto my Dolan "winter bike", yes its real Dolan, although I did buy the frame on eBay, and build it up....!!

I`m unsure what my winter project will be. My Chinarillo is sitting up in the loft (not worth a bean 2nd hand), wrapped up in bubble wrap, so, will I source (from the same manufacturer), another Chinese frame, or will my LBS come good and supply me with a "proper" frame.

Watch this space.

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TheHatter replied to withnails | 11 years ago
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withnails wrote:

it's surprising that there's not one comment above questionning whether it's actually ethical to buy one of these rip-off frames?

I was about to agree with you as I started to read your post thinking you would point out that the conditions for workers would be unknown given the lack of a responsible brand... but then you go on to mention the 'victims' as being..

withnails wrote:

owners of legitimate high-end frames who struggle to sell their bikes

Oh those poor, poor Pinarello Dogma owners! Why does no one ever think of the surpressed middle class in this country?!  20

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notfastenough replied to trikeman | 11 years ago
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trikeman wrote:

I am not 100% all these frames come from the same factory, but whichever they come from has to have some tooling, experience and expensive equipment to build carbon frames, Dura-ace C35's and Zipps. Companies like Nike have tried to stop this 'copying' but if there is the market for less expensive, the market will be supplied.
Trikeman.  3

Don't know why, but the idea of rip-off components leaves me more surprised than rip-off frames. Dura-Ace C35s? That just makes me think it's an 'out-of-hours' job on the same production line, or someone fiddling the numbers to siphon a few off the official shipping list.

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drheaton replied to russyparkin | 11 years ago
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russyparkin wrote:

have to say i have bought some oakley 'replicas' recently from china. had them checked by an optician and they are uv400 safe. radars with 5 lenses. i have traditionally been against such things and do own genuine oakley as well. but you cannot tell the difference, everything is the same except with 5 lenses they were 14.99!.
this is almost a bit of the industries fault. they went to china to get people to make products for a reason. the cheapest costs and highest margins.

what it has done though has made some switched on chinese people realise that they can make money off the manufacturers greed. the de rosa r386 is a classic example. its the same frame as the ribble stealth yet if you bought the exact bike specs the de rosa is £1100 more. they have bought the frame off the shelf so to speak. so your paying £1000 for stickers and paint.

I'd be really interested in seeing how the Chinarello actually compares to a "real", as in bought through 'official' channels, Pinarello frame. I wonder if its possible to have it professionally appraised? I'd love to know. It could be interesting to see if its a straight copy, an actual Pinarello frame produced 'out of hours' or just someone knocking together a look-a-like.

If nothing else Wheelz, your project has certainly been a great source of discussion.

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wheelz replied to drheaton | 11 years ago
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Well my friend drheaton,

I took my bike into a LBS that deals with high end frames/bikes and is a main dealer for Pinarillo! Although they were understandably "not over the moon" with me/it, they were good enough sports to run an "experts" eye over it for me.
So after a few long minuted of umming and aring, calling the mech`s from out back, they got down to picking holes in it. Im afraid thats all they could do, pick holes in little things, but the good news is & they hated saying it, but it was a good copy!  4 Ive got a good frame. Ive now had over 1200 miles of good fun riding, my WECC know its a fake, but also admire me & it from afar, if i say so myself, we done a cracking job building it up with good sensible choices of Sram Rival groupset, mavic Kyserium wheels & all the rest of the kit which makes the bike work.
I do not earn enough or ride quick enough to warrent or buy a "real" Pinarillo or any other top end frame. I bought it because i liked the look of it, im out to save the world, just out riding my very good looking, fun to ride, discussion starting "fake" Chin-Pinarillo.....  1

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matt637 replied to withnails | 11 years ago
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Without wishing to sound too puritanical or a killjoy, but it's surprising that there's not one comment above questionning whether it's actually ethical to buy one of these rip-off frames?

i did mention about trading standards being interested - they'd have to catch you first  3

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The Good Shepherd | 12 years ago
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Mavic Cosmic Elite wheels are really good, and Planet X usually have tehm for about the £280 mark.

Good luck with the bike!

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wheelz | 12 years ago
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 4

well boys it turned up last night. looks good so far, heres a picture taken from my phone. will post better ones when i get the camera out. still unsure whether to go 105 or Ultegra groupset?is it really worth the extra £250?
And im probably going to get mavic ksyrium equipe wheelset, theyre a good price at the moment.

oh and tht rug colour is her choice! like we get a say in these things.  39

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matt637 | 12 years ago
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Looks great, but how is it not going to attract the attention of the local trading standards dept!!?  39

I would go for Sram Rival - great price, great weight (some parts are lighter than Ultegra), good durability and performance, and looks perfect. It's supposed to be in competition with 105 and Campag Veloce but outweighs and out prices both quite well - it's more of a threat to Ultegra.

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notfastenough | 12 years ago
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Well that's the first two tests passed - it turned up, and looks like they said it would!

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wheelz | 12 years ago
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hi guys/gals

Yep the 1st 2 things have happened. It turned up and it looks exactly like the photos he sent. Actually its better than I hoped it would be!! In a nice way.

As for the sram Rival, never really occured to me, ive been using the big S for years racing my xc bikes and never used Sram stuff before.  39 So the Rival groupset is lighter than the 105 but cheaper than the Ultegra! I suppose it fits the same, as in the BB?

Got me thinking though, and doing a massive order on the WWW next week after a cheque clears!

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notfastenough | 12 years ago
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Just a comment regarding SRAM - I use a mix of Rival and Apex, and it's causing me to learn quickly how to tune cable tension and derailleur movement limits etc as my new cable for the rear shifter settles in and loosens up. I don't know if Shimano or Campag transmission would be as fussy.

Other than that though, it is great kit.

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wheelz | 12 years ago
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thanks for that, all the shimano kit ive used never had any problems once its been set up, apart from the noram wear n tear!

any thoughts on tyres? ive been using conti gator hardshell and have`nt had any punctures this year........ yet!  4

are the gatorskins any good, they`re a fair bit lighter but is the punture proofing any good? plus they are a fair bit cheaper too.  39

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notfastenough | 12 years ago
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Well I'm still on my first set of tyres since getting back into cycling, so I can only say that I chose Schwalbe Blizzard Sport to get me through a Manchester (read: potholed, lot of road muck) winter, and I've only had 1 puncture, but did notice a few cuts in the rubber when changing the tube.

I should clarify my statement about SRAM - I believe cable tension/bedding in isn't unique to SRAM. Also, as I say I'm learning quick, and can't help feeling a little more confident about being out in the middle of nowhere, alone, in shocking weather!

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